I just got Poison Gas Arrow and I agree with others...I think the animation/effects for PGA and Glue Arrow need to be swapped around.
And I read that someone said that when you have a mob held with Ice arrow that when you use Glue arrow that it un-holds the mob...this is untrue...or at least from what I've seen... 
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It appears that people are mis-intrepreting the changes just slightly. I see several posts in this area complaining that the single target holds are too powerful and don't seem to be effected by the half-duration double-recharge change. ONLY the AoE holds/sleeps/immobilizes were changed. The single targets power were not. The Ice controller single target hold has pretty much the same duration and recharge rate as the arrow version. The only bug, is the damage missing from the arrow version.
As far as the single target immobilize Arrow, it follows in line with the single target immobilizes that most of the controller primaries have already, just minus the minor amounts of damage. Which balances out, especially on a controller, since I'm sure the DEV's didn't want them having 2 lower level immobilizes that caused damage. This also allows the defenders to have something similar to the devices web power which has its uses.
The only forseeable issues i've seen thus far with this set, is when combined with a non-arrow primary or secondary set. The attack rate is severely slowed down when you have to re-draw the bow, [censored] an arrow, and then fire each time a different power is used that is not arrow related. Its workable, and may or may not be intentional, I don't know.
The animation for the glue looks good, but I do agree that the gas and glue effects could prob be switched and still work. But I can live with them the way they currently stand.
As far as the Defenders having a control set, I think is fine, since turn about is fair play, since the controllers tend to have the defenders sets all the time, lol.
But the controller changes and defender/controller shared sets is another matter, for another chat subject.
Flash Arrow and Glue Arrow do not take Accuracy Enhancers, is this intentional?
Flash Arrow doesn't seem to agro anything, but there's no indication that it should be behaving this way, intentional?
Flash Arrow says if mobs are attacked they will still retain their Accuracy penalties, but the flash arrow maintained sfx fade on attacking, and there is no corresponding Accuracy debuff sfx on the targets. It would be nice if either the flash effect didn't fade on attacking, or there was an Acc debuff sfx that did last longer.
I personally like the look of Glue Arrow, reminds me of cotton candy or rubber cement glue.
However, there is one odd thing about Glue Arrow in general. It's a targeted AoE. When it appears it has the large green goo area appear around the target. But when that target moves, the green goo area doesn't move. But the area is still tied to the original target, since when it dies, the green goo area disappears. Individial cotton candy sfx do move with each mob that enters the AoE. It just doesn't behave quite right, its anchored to the first target, but its not. Odd.
Flash arrow doesn't aggro, because it's other effect is to lower visibility so you can sneak around enemies. If it aggro'd them, there'd be no point to the -Visibility part.
Love this set so much. I've been dying for the bow & arrow powers, but couple of issues:
- I agree with some people that Entangling arrow seems completely inferior to Ice Arrow, and I think the only ones who will ever have entangling arrows are controllers because they're forced to take it.
- Flash arrow misses too often to not accept accuracy enhancements, and the animation seems both too subtle (I didn't even know it was working at first) and disappears too quickly.
- Disruption arrow, based on the description (I haven't gotten it yet), seems weaker than Acid arrow. Both -Res to everything, but acid arrow can damage. If any power could go and be replaced by a heal early on (not that I even want a heal in this set, cause I don't), it could be this power.
- And if adding a heal is what some people want, I could easily see one done like transfusion from kinetics. You hit your enemy and somehow transfer his health/endurance to your allies' health. But if the animation for either suggested heal (the other being to shoot in the general direction of your ally with a medicinal arrow) is too long, than.. well, it would suck because your ally would probably be eating the floor before your arrow fired. 
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TA doesn't belong as a controller secondary, having two single target holds at second level is too powerful. If the set is kept as a controller secondary, Ice arrow should be placed later in the powerset, perhaps 6th or 7th.
Net arrow isn't worthy of the set. If it was a blaster secondary, it would be.
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I like what I've seen in the set.
If the devs are trying to reduce the amount of lockdown by controllers, however, Trick Arrow should not be a controller secondary. It is so full of control it is practically a second Controller primary. A controller with the trick arrow secondary will be able to lock down groups similar to controllers pre-I5. The only drawback, of course, is the weapon draw time.
If it is the devs intention to reduce the amount of lockdown by controllers I feel they need to seriously reconsider Trick Arrow as a controller secondary or perhaps institute some changes in the set for the controller version.
Don't give in devs. This set should not have a heal. There are some bugs (ice says it does damage), but overall I love the set.
As for this being a controller secondary. I say it's great since the holds are all single target and require a bit of thinking. I would much rather have this as a secondary to increase the number of my holds. The devs just didn't want controllers to use the AoE holds so offten.
Great set. Can't wait to make a TA/Arrow Defender on live.
On the whole, I like it.
However, I do not think it fits with Controllers.
First, Defenders have been concerned for a long time about lacking uniqueness due to sharing almost all of their primary powersets with Controllers, especially as often, Controllers are able to better utilize the powers than the Defenders. ALL of the new Buff/Debuff powersets in I-5 are shared between Controllers and Defenders. In both cases, Controllers are very excited about the new abilities which have excellent synergy with their Control powers; Defenders have nothing new to call their own.
Second, Trick Arrow does not fit Controllers for story reasons.
The rationale, as I understand it, behind Controllers is that they posess impressive powers of control and manipulation of enemies, but their origin did not bless them with high direct damage potential - you may be able to conjure and finely manipulate flames to harry and frustrate your foes, but you were not blessed with the hot, explosive flames of your Blaster friend, nor the searing, protective flames of your Tanker teammate.
However, from a "realism" point of view, many Controllers, frustrated from slowly brawling targets into submission, will be asking themselves, "Okay, so I can shoot glue arrows, flash arrows, ice arrows, and all the rest - WHY CAN'T I JUST BUY SOME PLAIN BROADHEAD TIPS AND SHOOT DAMAGE ARROWS?"
Third, Trick Arrow has a high "Control" component to it. Though the focus of the set is Debuff, it resembles Dark Miasma in that a large amount of it's debuffing ability leans in the direction of control. Trick Arrow is heavy on control-like abilities which add to their Control options more heavily than other sets available to them.
I will also add that I found the animations dissapointing and highly stilted, please consider taking the time to do a better capture of the movements from a skilled archer, and add a quiver to the weapon from which to draw arrows at the beginning of the animations. (This also applies to the Archery set.)
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
Having Archery and Trick Arrow both available for Defenders actually gave me reason to play one.
While some would say Entangle Arrow is virtually useless, I've found it to be quite handy in situations with flying enemies. Although, it doesn't seem to hold them, if you shoot them in mid-flight 100% of the time. On occasion, they just fall to the ground and then slowly run about.
Ice Arrow is great for Lieutenants and Bosses. Even though the chance of it holding is rare (with Bosses), the slow is nearly invaluable.
Glue Arrow is a piece of work, for the fact that it's quite ugly and doesn't look like glue, at all. More like tar, if anything. Aside from my little nitpicking, it's great for escapes. Especially combined with...
Flash Arrow. Which has been my dearest friend, as I didn't take Stealth or anything else that could possibly help me survive in the Hollows. I think I'd be lost without it.
That's all I've been able to test, so far. Sorry. D:
I'm posting here but this could have gone in the archery thread too. I'm not exactly sure which powers are of concern here.
I have a TA/A defender. I took Entangling Arrow as my first primary power and Snap Shot as my first secondary. At level 2 I took Aimed Shot.
I noticed that if I used Entangling Arrow and was pretty far from the mob, they didn't try to attack me at all. Normally when held they pull out a pistol or shotgun and fight back. I don't know if the cause is that the archery powers are allowing me to fight so far away, or if this is as intended, but somehow I doubt that's the case. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I know it doesn't fit into the risk vs. reward scheme. Granted my defender is only level 4 now, but I've had very little risk of dying so far. Much less at these levels than any other AT/powersets I've tried so far.
I found this mob behavior both in missions and on the street, but moreso on the street. In missions most of the mobs fought back.
Also, when I pull out my bow, I hear the same sound effect as when a blaster pulls out their super soaker. It's a clicky, ratchety sound. I kept thinking a mob was taking aim at me, but then I realized it was my defender making the noise. IMO, it doesn't fit with the power set.
I finally got Acid Arrow last night and even though I only ran around with it for about 5 minutes it has convinced me to drop my DDD and start a Arrowfender.
Seeing those damage numbers roll by makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Just 2 things...
1) The power can take damage resistance enhancements, but no damage resistance debuff enhancements
2) The FX for Acid Arrw is a bit too subtle. A bigger, more obvious splash would be a lot better.
1. As many others have pointed out, this should be a Blaster secondary. Playing a Trick Arrow/Archery Defender feels like playing a poor man's Blaster.
2. Ice Arrow should be a single-target slow effect with minor DoT, IMO. This would keep it from making Entangling Arrow pointless.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I believe this set is too much like a Controller primary to be appropriate for a Defender, especially in light of the changes made to Dark Miasma's Hold and to AE Control in general. It seems Trick Arrow was unaffected by either of these changes; if that's an oversight, it needs to be corrected. In any event, it seems unfair to give a Defender equal to superior crowd control to Controllers. As it stands, Trick Arrow receives a single target Hold, an AE Slow, a single target Immobilize, an AE Knockdown, and an AE Hold. It seems like a combination of the effects from several Controller sets and does not at all feel like a Defender set to me.
It is worth noting that Trick Arrow, on a Controller, will improve his control capabilities to the point where he will be more useful than any other Controller currently is. The ability to fire off twice as many single target holds will correct the hole in AE Control that currently exists, and a long duration, fast recharge AE Slow and AE Knockdown will improve that control even further. I don't believe that the other Controller secondaries are comparable, especially since Trick Arrow makes the Controller a better Controller. Groups won't want to take non-TA Controllers unless they can't find a Defender with the primary set they need, as the TA Controller has greater utility.
Trick Arrow should be subject to the same reductions in effectiveness as Dark Miasma and all Controller primaries, or it should be changed into a unique Controller primary.
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I agree with this, it does not belong as a defender primary or a controller secondary. Give it to controllers as a primary and offer a slightly modified version to blasters for a secondary.
For blasters, change most of the aoe effects to single target and slow down ice arrow a little. Leave oil slick as an aoe for blasters however (the oil slick/flaming arrow combination just sounds like a better concept for blasters than defenders).
I am very disappointed that this secondary is not available for the blaster, it should be.
Having to choose Devices or fire makes no sense for the archery Powerset.
I am really starting to wonder about the developers for this game... I usually have their backs and want to support the decisions... but [censored] is going on at cryptic????
Its suppose to be an update... not Armeggedon.. to your game, pull your heads out of your.. a$$es and listen to the players, plugging your ears and saying this will be better for the game.. does not make your customers happier or necessarily make a better game.
Sorry a little of topic here.. so again, please make some changes so that it is available for blasters.
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Demonacsaid:
-As a Fire/TA controller, the new controller damage bonus was great for the low levels I was playing through, but I noticed (many times) that a successful Net Arrow immobilization does NOT trigger the double-damage from Controller-Primary-Attacks. However, Ice Arrow's hold DOES trigger the double-damage from CPAs. I don't know which way is right, but it is at best inconsistent.
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I've noticed this as well. What happens is there's a delay for Entangling Arrow (EA). Fire EA then queue an attack. EA fires then the ttack fires, of course. However, the attack hits before EA's done with its animation and, it seems, the target is not immobilized until the animation's done. Some powers such as Spectral Wounds hit pretty much when they're fired. This means that the attack hits before the immob is active. That's why you don't get the doubled damage on a controller. This is easily worked around by waiting to fire off your attack until the animation of EA is complete.
While this adds an extra dimension to attack chains and discourages pure button-mashing, it is inconsistent with "autohit" attacks regardless of animation. For example, if I run by a mob with Super Speed and he shoots me, I take damage even if the animation isn't done. This isn't "realistic" but makes sense due to latency. EA, however, completely violates this disconnect of animation and effect. While I personally prefer EA's technique and think it may be intentional in light of oil slick's ability to tie in with another power, it's best mentioned in case it's a bug. (How's that for a runon sentence?)
On other notes:
The set lacks a heal. Sweet! Contrary to popular opinion, the title of Defender does not imply healer. You can defend by debuffing just fine and it's about time people figure that out. The set also would be a great Blaster secondary. Perhaps that's planned for later to encourage non-Blaster builds.
Ice arrow's lack of damage is OK. It'd be a bit overpowered if it did damage as well. The recharge OR duration should be tweaked if damage is added. Personally, I'd like to see damage added and the duration reduced for Defenders while leaving it alone for Controllers. Controller don't need extra damage since they do double to the mob while it's held. You'd have to exempt Ice Arrow from the double damage rule in order to be fair since you'd have both benefits from one power. Hope that makes sense.
That's as far as I've gotten so far in TA, personally. I've been testing other sets and exploring Croatoa. There's so much to look at in I5 that it's hard to look at all of it. Hopefully a level jump for new sets will happen before long so we can test high end content and powers before release.
I know some people already said this but please look the redraw time on Trick Arrow. It takes a large amount of time to redraw the bow, etc, if you use any non-arrow set power (ie any contr primary power or non-archery defender secondary). I am not sure if there is a way to keep the bow out or have it animate faster?
The Silvers - Level 50s
Main: Wyvern - Fire/Kin/Earth
Chimera- Ill/Rad * Sphinx- Fire/Kin * Medusa- Earth/Rad * Shiva- Ice/Kin
Celaeno- Mnd/Rad * Dryad- Earth/Kin * Kirin- Fire/Rad * Tiamat- Mnd/Kin
Pixie- Grv/Kin * Nymph- Ice/Rad * Circe- Plant/Kin
I ve played alot of Blasters and a few defenders
This set definately has the feel of a blaster set with out the damage. It seems to be similar to the Ice or Devices secondary meaning it has holds and slows etc not at all like any Defender secondaries -- actually it seems to be a very week defender--
no heals
no buffs
just holds
Great set just in the wrong Architype
SFC America Assault/Dev Blaster LVL 50
Cpt Patriot Inv/SS Tanker LVL 40+
Entropy MA/Inv Scrapper LVL 30+
Warbot En/En Blaster LVL 40 +
I haven't seen the higher-level powers yet, admittedly, but it seems to me that this set is more attractive to controllers than to defenders.
Now, I think that's okay, in itself. Different ATs have different needs, and you could say the same of Storm.
The thing that gives me pause is, it seems almost entirely control-oriented. Its slows, holds, knockdown, and entangle remind me of Ice Control, in fact. It doesn't have a lot of debuffs (aside from slow).
Dark Miasma, in contrast, has a good amount of control, but it also has a lot of debuffs.
With that in mind, I'd suggest some changes.
Entangling Arrow: Add either a knockdown/knockback (nets tend to bring targets down) or a small area-effect. Additionally, add an accuracy debuff. This gives defenders a better reason to take the power, when otherwise Ice Arrow is superior in pretty much every way. Also, fix it so it doesn't wake sleeping foes (unless you add knockback); currently, it does, and if sleep is applied to a netted enemy, it lasts only a second or two. This should not happen with a power that causes neither damage nor knockback.
Ice Arrow: Seems fine as is. I don't think it needs the damage, and an early hold is a good power for a defender or controller alike.
Glue Arrow: Is this an auto-hit? It seems like it might be. Anyway, its effect is good as-is, but it needs to be a little more obvious which enemies are affected.
Flash Arrow: This should accept accuracy enhancements. Perhaps add a small defense debuff as well.
Poison Gas Arrow: I haven't noticed a -damage effect. I'm not convinced about the -recharge, either. This power may be bugged, or it may simply not be a big enough debuff to make a difference. If the latter, increase the debuff. Alternatively, add more debuffs (definitely regen, maybe defense and accuracy) so that it takes a little bit off of everything, sort of like a reverse Accelerate Metabolism. Also, add -regen and maybe -recovery -- these seem like obvious effects of poison.
- Everything below this point is speculation only -
Acid Arrow: Seems like it might be fine as-is, provided the debuffs are big enough.
Disruption Arrow: Another -res. Might be a bit much on top of Acid Arrow, but might not, especially since that's all this power does. This debuff should be larger than Enervating Field's or Freezing Rain's, as those powers do more. If it's not, then a second effect should be added (-accuracy as the sonics interfere with concentration, maybe?).
Oil Slick Arrow: Knockback and -speed... probably fine. I like the potential to combine it with fire powers for additional effect; we need more of that sort of thing. Worth noting, though, that until this issue, knockback fields were reserved to controllers. Now, both new Buff/Debuff sets are getting them. Not sure how to feel about that.
EMP Arrow: While it's sure to be very powerful if it's anything like Radiation's EMP, it feels like a retread. I don't really have a better suggestion, though.
Just a quick update on what I think so far.
I agree with others that TA should NOT be a Controller secondary.
TA is too much Dark Miasma in the sense that it has a big "controllery" feel to it.
Also I just tested the -damage effect on a sg mate in the arena and the damage debuff is a little more than 20%. He was brawl'ing me for 20 dmg. then I hit him with PGA and only hitting me for 15 dmg.
Also with both GA and PGA on him Brawl recharged in 8 seconds (without hasten on...with hasten on I think it was 3 or 4 seconds).
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where's my boxing glove arrow?
The only issue I have with the set is that every attack should do *some* damage. An arrow is going to do a little damage, right? I'm not asking for anything major, just something very minor, for it to be thematic, that's all.
Great set, animation times could be reduced. As has already been mentioned Ice arrow does not do damage as is stated it does. It also seems too controllerish to be a controller secondary as it would essentially give controllers 2 primaries.
I really like the glue arrow effect (not the visual, the power, not that I have any real issues with the visual) I like how you hit the group and they become slowed even after they leave the area, but that area still slows mobs. Not sure if this is intended but it fits what it would do in my mind. It may be slightly over-powered - in PVP it would be without question overpowered.
I would LOVE to see this set as a blaster secondary with some changes (reduced range for one, otherwise it becomes a better devices - possiblely the best secondary already)
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I believe this set is too much like a Controller primary to be appropriate for a Defender, especially in light of the changes made to Dark Miasma's Hold and to AE Control in general. It seems Trick Arrow was unaffected by either of these changes; if that's an oversight, it needs to be corrected. In any event, it seems unfair to give a Defender equal to superior crowd control to Controllers. As it stands, Trick Arrow receives a single target Hold, an AE Slow, a single target Immobilize, an AE Knockdown, and an AE Hold. It seems like a combination of the effects from several Controller sets and does not at all feel like a Defender set to me.
It is worth noting that Trick Arrow, on a Controller, will improve his control capabilities to the point where he will be more useful than any other Controller currently is. The ability to fire off twice as many single target holds will correct the hole in AE Control that currently exists, and a long duration, fast recharge AE Slow and AE Knockdown will improve that control even further. I don't believe that the other Controller secondaries are comparable, especially since Trick Arrow makes the Controller a better Controller. Groups won't want to take non-TA Controllers unless they can't find a Defender with the primary set they need, as the TA Controller has greater utility.
Trick Arrow should be subject to the same reductions in effectiveness as Dark Miasma and all Controller primaries, or it should be changed into a unique Controller primary.
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I tested this last night and quickly realized that with a TA defender in a group, there was no need for a controller. I completely agree with the above poster.
Last point: As a blaster set, the only secondary that makes sense for archery seems to be devices. I think there should be a blaster archery secondary.
i'm curious to see if an ignited oil slick will result in the same "fear" that causes mobs to run from burn...
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i'm curious to see if an ignited oil slick will result in the same "fear" that causes mobs to run from burn...
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Interesting idea....
If only the devs would bump us archers/sonics up about 20 lvls for us to test higher lvl powers... :P
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Entangle Arrow - Will anyone take this power as a defender? Given the choice between it and a single target hold, who in thier right mind is going to take the immobolize?
Ice Arrow - Excellent power. However the reason I like it so much will be explained further down.
Glue Arrow - Excellent power, however something needs to distinguish the anchor of the power from the rest of mob that is being slowed by the glue.
Poision Gas Arrow - Excellent power, seems to be about right.
Flash Arrow - Bugged. Power can miss, but cannot accept Accuracy enhancements. The debuff time is also either extremely short or the graphic isn't lasting as long as the debuff lasts. If the debuff time is indeed as short as it appears to be for the endurance used then this will go the way of Propel from the Gravity set. (Power with awesome looking graphics that is effectively useless in a real playing environment.)
I feel I really like this set for all the wrong reasons. The set controls better than my controller did at the same level. It's slows and recharge debuffs are more effective when stacked than controller AoE holds now are. The set is a good set all in and fits in well with the old feel of the game. However it is not very synergistic with Everquest in Spandex, and therefore it needs to be stripped of alot of the things that make it controller like. Especially if that is the direction the game is headed, which it seems to be. Simply put, the set is too fun to play and that must be corrected now before it hits release.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
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