I believe this set is too much like a Controller primary to be appropriate for a Defender, especially in light of the changes made to Dark Miasma's Hold and to AE Control in general. It seems Trick Arrow was unaffected by either of these changes; if that's an oversight, it needs to be corrected. In any event, it seems unfair to give a Defender equal to superior crowd control to Controllers. As it stands, Trick Arrow receives a single target Hold, an AE Slow, a single target Immobilize, an AE Knockdown, and an AE Hold. It seems like a combination of the effects from several Controller sets and does not at all feel like a Defender set to me.
It is worth noting that Trick Arrow, on a Controller, will improve his control capabilities to the point where he will be more useful than any other Controller currently is. The ability to fire off twice as many single target holds will correct the hole in AE Control that currently exists, and a long duration, fast recharge AE Slow and AE Knockdown will improve that control even further. I don't believe that the other Controller secondaries are comparable, especially since Trick Arrow makes the Controller a better Controller. Groups won't want to take non-TA Controllers unless they can't find a Defender with the primary set they need, as the TA Controller has greater utility.
Trick Arrow should be subject to the same reductions in effectiveness as Dark Miasma and all Controller primaries, or it should be changed into a unique Controller primary.
Arrow set is long overdue and overall i'm pleased with it except for the following:
Animations for the arrows seem a bit slow. I can hit a target at maximum range and by the time I notch another arrow he's already in melee rounds with me. ( love the kick for brawl btw)
Using a TA/sonic character, hit target with ice arrow used scream and rehit target with ice arrow but animation appears to double...first time after sonic it seems to go left handed through the animation then resets to do the entire animation right handed effectively doubling the time it takes to fire an arrow.
Ice Arrow really makes Entangling Arrow kind of pointless. While it looks really neat, why take it?
I'd suggest possibly adding a knockback effect to Entangling Arrow (simulating the "Whoops, my feet have suddenly been tied together by all that rope") which gives EA another level of attractiveness besides looking neat.
Ice Arrow's damage/description bug's been mentioned. I'd also add the lack of consistant animation to that. I'd also like the speed of the recharges looked at - they didn't seem to be gelling right.
Well, I was amused by the look of the Trick Arrow set. Heroes in high tech costumes shooting little toy bows like they were playing at being Robin Hood hunting baddies in Sherwood Forest. A more high tech appearance of the bows would seem to better fit the overall theme of the game.
I like Trick Arrow; fun set, stacks well with some controller primaries. Other than that:
-Ice Arrow, as has oft been pointed out, is an un-nerfed hold. It should have its duration reduced appropriately, except PLEASE! PLEASE! reduce the animation time. It's giving me flashbacks of the old-style MA graphics power-rangers. If I aggro enemies from long range with another power and immediately hit ice arrow, a melee enemy invariably runs all the way up and hits me with a melee attack before getting frozen. Compare that to controller single-target hold (which do damage) and are instant cast. So, half duration, but preferably 1/3 of the animation. [Even if the bow is already drawn, it takes almost as long].
-I don't think that Net Arrow is all that great a power, and OBVIOUSLY it isn't as good as Ice Arrow, but I recognize that having two single-target controls is better than one. However, after you equalize Ice Arrow's hold duration with controller holds, and whether you add damage to IA or just remove that part from the description (it may be too strong with the damage), please increase the ACC bonus of Net Arrow to equalize the two powers at least a little.
-Also, Ice Arrow and Net arrow SFX: let me explain this by example (its easier). If I Fire Cages some vahz zombies, they are hit, but not immobilized (because they are immob resistant). I then fire a Net Arrow into one - because the result of the stacking will immobilize the zombie, both the net and the fire ring appear - so far so good. Only, under this circumstance, the net and fire graphics appear the instant I trigger the Net Arrow - even before the bow is pulled out or the arrow is drawn, and certainly long before I should even know if I hit or not. The same situation can be replicated with another hold (resisted) followed by Ice Arrow (the instant I hit the power the Ice appears to take hold, assuming that the to hit roll was going to succeed and the magnitude would overcome the resistance).
-As a Fire/TA controller, the new controller damage bonus was great for the low levels I was playing through, but I noticed (many times) that a successful Net Arrow immobilization does NOT trigger the double-damage from Controller-Primary-Attacks. However, Ice Arrow's hold DOES trigger the double-damage from CPAs. I don't know which way is right, but it is at best inconsistent.
-If you use an insp with the bow out, but remain motionless after ward, after a couple seconds you move back to your "combat stance" animation, except instead of your bow-stance, you wield it like the katana (except the bow sticks out further than the sword handle so that it looks like you are riding it).
-Of course, the BEST thing you could do would be if you could allow weapon characters to keep the weapon out while using powers of their other power set. I know that you can't waste the time to add a second set of animations (w/ and w/out wpn) for every possible powerset conflict, and the wanton collision problems would likely drive everybody nuts, but if you could find some solution is would be great. The different brawl animations for bow and katana are cool.
ed: I think that the composite bow appearance is a very good compromise between the various technology and/or fantasy elements of different characters' origin/concepts
I like the set, the animations tend to lag a little bit,
would likea couple things clarified though
Ice Arrow's description does dmg and yet it doesn't, is it a typo or a bug? Its fine either way to me
Whats the strength of the debuff's in it? for instance is flash arrow compariable to -accuracy to RI & DN or to what is it Device's smoke grenade
Its kind of difficult to tell, but some of the powers seem like click anchor powers, any clarification here?
But otherwise a very promising set, I look forward to seeing it on live. Good Job
I dislike the Trick Arrow powerset. Its a poor mans controller. The majority of its powers are Controller powers. When you need a Defender on your team you need one, not a Controller Blaster wanna-be.
It seems that the Devs were stuck for Ideas and decided to take the easy way out and grab a few controller powers. Maybe they thought an Immobilize as a 100% Speed Debuff and a Hold as a 100% Damage Debuff.
The first 4 powers are Controller powers.
Entangling Arrow - Immobilize 1st lvl Controller power
Ice Arrow - Hold 1st lvl Controller power
Glue Arrow - 6th lvl Controller Power (Quicksand)
Flash Arrow - 6th lvl Controller Power (Smoke)
Finaly when you reach 8th Lvl you recieve your first Defender Power.
Poison Gas Arrow - Nifty
Acid Arrow - Nifty again
Disruption Arrow - Nifty, but Im concerned with self Stacking Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow for a Massive -Resistance Debuff.
At 26 you get another Controller power. Ho Hum.
Oil Slick Arrow - 6th/18th lvl Controller Power (Ice Slick/Earthquake)
and an extra effect that it can be set on fire, Yay!
Emp Arrow - a 4th Defender Power yay!
Glue Arrow is comparable to Lingering Radiation, a Defender power. Ice Arrow is comparable to Petrfying Gaze, a Defender power. Flash Arrow, while very similar to Smoke, can be compared to Fearsome Stare in terms of being an AoE accuracy debuff, though without the control element.
Entangling Arrow is actually a clone of Web Grenade, a Blaster secondary power.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I made most of my general Archery comments in the other thread, but I will post some here too.
The Ice Arrow animation is a little weird, the formation of the ice and the hlding of the villian doesn't seem to coincide with when the arrow appears to hit.
I do believe that this would make an excellent blaster secondary as the powers are very much akin to the devices line. I know a lot of players would love to play as an archery blaster with both primaries and secondaries, because as a TA/Archery defender I definately feel more like a blaster than a defender because of the nature of the secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed enough that I'll use my 1 post to push the fact. Trick arrow very much has a feel of a blaster secondary. And a very useful blaster secondary. But asking it to be moved from controller to blaster secondary pool might be a little much to ask.
Blinding arrow does seem to miss a little too much. With my low level defender I've sometimes see it miss 2 in a mob 4 of blue or white minions. Maybe make it so it can accept a accuracy enhancement...
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
You have hit the nail on the head with this power set.
This has to be the funnest powerset I've played yet, but that may be because its new.
Having powers able to combine through ingenius use is the hallmark of this set when combined with archery. I would suggest you guys work on letting current power sets have this same kind of effect. It'd be a serious detriment for this set to be the only one that can work in conjunction with another to cause unique powers.
Way to go on this one guys!(and gals?)
The set feels too much like a controller set, even the debuffs in it are mostly controller style debuffs (slows, smoke like effects). I do like how this is a jack of trades set, and this should be kept the same. However, I intensly dislike that the last power is EXACTLY, down to almost the name, like the last power in Radiation. This, to me, makes the set lose much of what little uniqueness this set actually has. EMP Arrow needs to be changed to it's own power, something that really exemplifes the strength of Trick Arrow, the fact that it has an answer for everything.
I completely enjoyed the Oil slick arrow + fire combination, I think there should be a lot more powers that can be combined like this. Please continue to do good work.
This is a fun powerset. It's reminicent of Dark Miasma or a Devices as being somewhat controllery. Allowing it to be a Controller Secondary might be too much.
(To others. I don't have it but Entangle Arrow reduces recharge rate, so that could be a use for it, but I don't know how much it does so.)
I have noticed that the effect icon for Flash Arrow ends shortly after you attack the villain. Does that mean that the accuracy debuff is gone once you attack that villain? That seems pretty worthless for a defender. Does Smoke Grenade act like this?
Haven't gotten any higher powers yet.
I like this set alot. Not only for concept but for utility
that said...
as a primarily controller player I do not feel its right to give trick arrow to controllers.
Defenders already hate the fact that every primary they have except dark miasma is a controller secondary. Trick Arrow (and Sonic Debuff) should remain exclusive to defenders IMO
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
[ QUOTE ]
The Ice Arrow seems to violate the new policies for Holds; whereas most Holds now are limited to half duration and doubled recharge,
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That only applies to AoE's, thank Joule.
My comments on the set:
I am concerned that it is too powerful as a control secondary (as compared to the other secondaries, not in general). I do not think that it needs a nerf, but I would consider making it Defender only, much as it pains me. At any rate, that would sate the Defender fanboys who complain that they don't get enough of a distinction from Controllers as is.
Now I haven't seen it, but I like the idea of the oil slick arrow. This type of improvement is what the game needs, nice and dynamic. More "physics" things like this should be involved I think.
Now I admit that I am indeed an electric blaster, but if you have things like fire lighting up the oil, could I please be able to target bodies of water and shock enemies in it? :-)
Very much digging Trick Arrow. Again, as usual, not sure if Ice Arrow should be damaging or not, but that's not a big concern.
Also: no matter what anyone says, this set should not have a heal. What would you do, shoot a syringe into a teammate?
If they *really* wanted a heal, you could fire an arrow with a vial of healing potion that disperses like Poison Arrow does so you'd have a targeted AoE heal. Not that Im saying the set needs it, just that its possible.
Also, any chance on increasing the -acc debuff on Flash arrow up to Rad. Infection/Fearsome Stare levels? Right now it feels like an insignificant accuracy debuff, and since the set is completely debuff with no way to provide defense or healing for team mates, some kind of -acc debuff is needed.
Thats all I have on TA for the moment, havent played it up much yet.
Would like to say that TA *as it stands* is not a blaster set, but with some reworking you could give blasters a severely weakened version of it for arch/TA blasters.
Sometimes the enemy is so swift and the path so treacherous that you can run no further.
It is then that you must turn and resolve to fight
and in all likelihood die horribly
but you never know when you are going to get lucky, so go for it!
- Captain Fwiffo
I agree that this set doesn't need a heal...
Atleast at lower levels this seems very controllery (more so than it is defenderry)
that Net Arrow... a single target imob is not exactly a helpful move for anyone ESPECIALLY when it's out of their main powerset (blasters can use it, but I use it when blasting to run away...)
Glue Arrow seems pretty good, kinda controllerry but you can just say you're "just REALLY debuffing their speed :P" (It's been reported that if Ice Arrow is used to hold an enemy first that this will TURN OFF the hold, not sure if that is a bug or not... but seems unnecessary)
I was trying to test 4 characters AND play my main on live so I only tested those powers... will comment on the description...
Defenders are buff/debuff main really, and blasting secondary... this felt like up through the first 5 up to maybe 10 levels I was playing a controller with blast secondary...
give some debuffs earlier on, or (somehow?) work in a buff... somewhere in exchange for controlling powers, if I want a controller I'll roll a controller... a shuffle is all it might need (of the power order)
I would REALLY like to see this as a blaster secondary... modified of course...
1. Entangling Arrow (because all blaster secondaries start with this...
2. maybe a weakened form of glue arrow
3. Boxing glove Arrow
(because of the head of this arrow it doesn't fly very far, but what it hits it is likely to disorient) Single Target close range disorient move with Disorient percentage between Total Focus and Bone Smasher Moderate Damage
4. Ice Arrow
5. Poison Gas Arrow
6. Build Up
7. Disruption Arrow
8. Emp Arrow
9. Oil Slick Arrow
That would make an awesome sauce blaster secondary I think... maybe that's just me
Ice Arrow says Moderate cold damage on your tray but doesn't deal any damage.
Glue Arrow has the icon for a location AOE when it's working as a targeted AOE.
Poison Gas Arrow can hold but accepts no hold enhancements which may be a bug. No damage debuff appears on mobs. In your combat tab you get a message saying it does toxic damage but appears in the healing text colour.
Flash Arrow can miss yet doesn't accept accuracy enhancements.
Disruption Arrow takes damage resistance enhancements, not yet tested if slotting them does anything. Disruption arrow puts a message in my combat tab saying it reduces the resistances of my toon for some reason.
Acid Arrow also takes damage resistance enhancements. It also gives no indication of how good the toxic damage it deals is.
I have played with Trick Arrow using it as both a defender primary and a controller secondary.
Entangling Arrow: Not very impressive, but then again the first power in a set is seldom great. Handy for a starter to get double damage as a controller but that is about it. 99% of all defenders will take Ice Arrow I think.
Ice Arrow: Great power. Though some ice damage would be nice I think this might overpower it a tad. Especially since it is a 1:1 (recharge:duration) hold. If it was reduced to 2:1 however some damage would be nice.
Glue Arrow: Great power. One of my favourites so far. Its FX seems swapped with that of poison arrow however and it is sometimes confusing to see who or what is effected. I am not so sure it moves with the original target. Many people say it does, but I havent noticed that so far. All-in-all I think it would do better as a ground targetted power.
Flash Arrow: A bit weak. If it was auto-hit then it would be better and letting the acc debuff last a bit longer would also improve it. It seems to me that as soon as the mobs are aggroed the debuff drops a few seconds later, but I could be mistaken.
Poison Arrow: Another great power. Suffers the same FX issues as glue arrow and would also be better as a ground targetted power. Its FX seems like it would fit better with Glue arrow.
This is as far as I got. I should be getting Acid arrow tonight, which I will be sure to test thoroughly.
I think Ice Arrow somewhat counters the rest of the set's feel -- a Bola Arrow causing a single-target hold and moderate smashing damage would feel much more in-line with the great comic book feel of this set. Otherwise, the glitches in the set have already been adequately covered.
I love this set. It's the most fun I've had playing a defender since getting into the mid-levels with my storm defender. And I've been able to solo enjoyably with it right from the start! Woot! Congratulations 
That's said, here's some extra commentary. The graphics are a little sketchy. The sounds I -love-.. it's a quiet set and I appreciate that.
I love this being in the Defender AT. Defs aren't just healers. Giving them the stuff that Trick Arrow can do doesn't make them Controllers any more than Lightning Bolt makes stormies into Blasters.
Suggestions:
- a "Flare/Whistling" arrow that you can shoot =away= from mobs that makes noise/flashes/distraction to draw their attention/aggro ("What was that noise? Let's check it out!"). this could be less effective the closer they are to the targeted spot ("Oh, it's just an arrow") or if the mob is already in combat, and would not hold their attention once they've reached it. just something to break up the initial size of a mob before the fighting starts.
- give the entangle arrow knockback! this would distinguish it more from the ice arrow which is otherwise superior in all other ways. the current version is conceptualized as a net, which is cool, but if you think of it as a bolo, it would entangle =and= trip. i've been in situations with my TA/Archer where all i wanted was some way to make the mobs =back up= off me.
- oil slick arrow is awesome. if synergistic effects become the hallmark of TA that would be sweet.
- a blow-dart snipe attack that does temporary but =extreme= End damage and would =not= pull aggro.
- a couple general oblong box/cylinder shapes with a straps that go into the cape costume section. this would be good for general purpose cosmetic issues for heros with guns/swords/arrows and could function as a holster/scabbard/quiver.
- at character creation, a one time choice between a longbow and a modern compound bow visually. i love the current bow, but it is a little archaic for certain character builds and choice is always a Good Thing.
i can't think of anything else at the time, just careful with that nerf bat!
nice power set
hh
Interesting set.. It felt alot like a Blaster Secondary than a Defender Primary.
Glue Arrow's animation looks totally wrong, although it is a very useful power.
Ice Arrow does no damage although the description says it does moderate.
I'm not sure what niche you are hoping to fill with this set but I imagine with the other current changes it is going to make it very hard for a Trick Arrow defender to find a team.
TA doesn't belong as a controller secondary, having two single target holds at second level is too powerful. If the set is kept as a controller secondary, Ice arrow should be placed later in the powerset, perhaps 6th or 7th.
Net arrow isn't worthy of the set. If it was a blaster secondary, it would be.
Freeze Warning - Ice/Storm 'troller
Shadowed Terror - Dark/Dark scrapper
Crossbones Cat - Dark/Dark defender
Maiden Taiwan - Invulnerable/EM tank
Dark Tomorrow - Merc/Traps mm
Counter Culture Clown - Rad/Rad corruptor