I honestly hope we haven't given up already. Have you given up?
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2012-11-08 17:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I am a proponent of the idea that faith is nothing more than a sense of certainty in the validity of one's own perceptions and conclusions in light of the body of available evidence.
I wonder how many of you actually know the neuroscience and biochemistry behind religion. If you did, you'd certainly not decry it as mere crutch, since it is nothing more than a natural outcome of our brain's instinctive pattern-seeking nature.
If being an atheist is a consequence of your careful consideration of the available evidence and weighing the associated probabilities, all the power to you. If being religious is a consequence of the same, all the power to you as well.
I really don't care so long as you are simply willing to follow the evidence where-ever it leads, and thus be willing to change your position if it can be reasonably demonstrated to you that you have misread some portion of the available evidence.
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Thread won.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
One pretty good bet is that there is no Mod.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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God has very little to do with religion. The possibility that the universe was birthed through sentient means is an idea. Assuming no Earthly religion has all the answers, religion is merely the tool created to take the idea of a god and use it to control the masses.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Or hell, just look at the available preponderance of evidence. There are at least four billion people on Earth who are deductively, absolutely, irrefutably wrong, on the basis that Judeo-Christianity is the largest religion on Earth with about three billion adherents and if it's right, all other religions must be wrong. And the number is higher if Judeo-Christianity is wrong but some other religion is right. Since it is evidenced that most religion is wrong, and since no religion really stands out from the crowd, it can be deductively stated beyond a reasonable doubt (but not beyond all doubt) that all religion is bunk, and therefore God (or at least all the gods humanity worships) is very, very likely false.
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Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
"Darwin the Prophet"? Why, I think we have ourselves a creationist here, folks. Not only do you find things that aren't there, but you ignore what's really happening in the world! Amazing!
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Ah, the "Atheism is just another religion" argument.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
God has very little to do with religion. The possibility that the universe was birthed through sentient means is an idea. Assuming no Earthly religion has all the answers, religion is merely the tool created to take the idea of a god and use it to control the masses.
Just speculating on where atheism is headed based on the scale of atheist zealotry and arrogance in this thread. Mind you it's probably not a reflection on all atheists. But then, no religion ever got judged by its regular followers. Only by its extremists and crusaders. Atheism will be judged by the world no differently. And since both are advocated for by humans, despite Atheism claiming that removing god will somehow bring world peace, I see no reason to think a world of Atheists will be any less bloody. People will kill each other for any reason under the sun. |
It's not.
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I wouldn't call it a religion. A belief system yes.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Ah, the "Atheism is just another religion" argument.
It's not. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Still not quite right. "Belief system" still implies faith. Call it a "rationality system" and you'd be a lot closer.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I wouldn't call it a religion. A belief system yes.
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...yet.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Ah, the "Atheism is just another religion" argument.
It's not. |
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Still not quite right. "Belief system" still implies faith. Call it a "rationality system" and you'd be a lot closer.
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More of a disbelief system.
Mind you, if we go into semantics, atheism and religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, many Buddhists are atheists (by definition an atheist is simply some one that rejects the existence of deities.)
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Rationalize it all you want: |
Originally Posted by Brillig
Still not quite right. "Belief system" still implies faith. Call it a "rationality system" and you'd be a lot closer.
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"They" believe there is a God.
"You" believe there isn't.
Me? I believe I'm in need of more coffee.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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religion
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
Depending on which definition is used, Atheism may or may not be viewed as a religion. Some sources say it is a religion and others say that it is not a religion.
Some say that in order for it to be considered a religion, there must be some diety involed although Buddhism is considered a religion although one of the core beliefs is that there is no over-arching god such as the creator like god found in the Christian Bible. Then again, Buddhism can be considered a form of Atheism.
It all depends on how religion is defined and or how te definition is perceived.
There is really no evidence that god exists and there is no evidence that god doesnt exist. The funny thing is that if this was any other subject or object and there is no evidence that it exist (look at the many threads on this forum about different subjects that someone cant merely quote or show evidence.) then it's easily dismissed as doesnt exist because there is no evidence that it does exists. Yet, what makes god so different? Why if it was something else, it's easy and sane to say because there is o evidence of that so it must be false/non-existance/ or that person is imagining things but when it comes to god, the rules change to well just because there is no evidence of it not existing then that doesnt mean it dont exist. If that logic is true, then it should be able to apply to anything. Besides that, it's just a convient reason to say it exist without any evidence that god do exist.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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Now there's something I think we can ALL agree is a religion 8)
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Me? I believe I'm in need of more coffee.
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I second that.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Now there's something I think we can ALL agree is a religion 8)
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Never mind. I should keep my mouth shut =D
Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster
....and hopeless Science-Natzi.
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This.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
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Thanks all for providing my "Hermann Goering" moment.
Hermann Goering, one of Germany's highest ranking generals during World War II
was reputed to have said "When I saw the Mustangs over Berlin, I knew that
the war was lost".
Though I've intellectually known the game was lost from the closure notice
and my personal experience with NCsoft's prior antics and game closings...
It was emotionally internalized for me, regarding CoH, right here:
When I saw multiple posts on religion in a game forum that were not (immediately
and appropriately) modded, it was then that I truly knew emotionally that CoH
was lost once and for all.
Clearly there is nothing more of value to be read here and it is time to leave
the cesspool that this once entertaining forum has devolved into.
So, in answer to the OP -- you know, the actual *topic* of the thread, yeah, there's
nothing here worth saving anymore... Movin' On.
Have a good life folks.
So Long,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Anyone who asserts that god (or Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, for that matter) does not exist had better not try to assert elsewhere that ideas merit protection. For it is an inarguable fact that they exist as ideas, if nothing else.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I'm perfectly fine if you want to set all of those in the same level of truth as Don Quixote or Harry Potter... I do hope they all fall in the Public Domain realm, though. Would suck to have to strip a project I was working off from all references to Santa Claus.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Anyone who asserts that god (or Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, for that matter) does not exist had better not try to assert elsewhere that ideas merit protection. For it is an inarguable fact that they exist as ideas, if nothing else.
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The eminently quotable Christopher Hitchens tried to explain the difference between the belief systems that ground religious faith and the rational (and empirical) perspective of atheism, which is, after all, only one facet of humanism:|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Rationalize it all you want:
"They" believe there is a God. "You" believe there isn't. |
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| The whole analytical method of humanist materialism is based on scepticism. We take nothing on faith. Imagine what a fortune could be made by a palaeontologist who unearthed human bones and dinosaur bones in the same layer of sediment. I will bet my house that this discovery will not be made, but my bet is not entirely, or at all, an article of belief. It is, rather, a conviction based on the study of evidence. |
Any paleontologist who discovered human and dinosaur bones in the same sediment, would probably spend the rest of his life in ridicule, with everyone debating for decades whether or not he faked the find, until the story faded from the public eye. During all that time, it would have no more credence than any of the current examples used by 'young earth' advocates to justify their beliefs.
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From Dictionary.com|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
The eminently quotable Christopher Hitchens tried to explain the difference between the belief systems that ground religious faith and the rational (and empirical) perspective of atheism, which is, after all, only one facet of humanism:
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World English Dictionary sceptic or skeptic (ˈskɛptɪk) n 1. a person who habitually doubts the authenticity of accepted beliefs 2. a person who mistrusts people, ideas, etc, in general 3. a person who doubts the truth of religion, esp Christianity adj 4. of or relating to sceptics; sceptical [C16: from Latin scepticus, from Greek skeptikos one who reflects upon, from skeptesthai to consider] skeptic or skeptic n adj [C16: from Latin scepticus, from Greek skeptikos one who reflects upon, from skeptesthai to consider] 'scepticism or skeptic n 'skepticism or skeptic n Sceptic or Skeptic (ˈskɛptɪk) n 1. a member of one of the ancient Greek schools of philosophy, esp that of Pyrrho, who believed that real knowledge of things is impossible adj 2. of or relating to the Sceptics |
That constitutes their belief as a religion.
There is a difference between "having doubts about something" and "knowing that something is a lie." Evidence, contrary to what some here may believe, is not proof.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Faith is merely another word for trust, really.
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If he does not bring enough people and equipment to scientifically document and back up his discovery, he will deserve being ridiculed.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Any paleontologist who discovered human and dinosaur bones in the same sediment, would probably spend the rest of his life in ridicule, with everyone debating for decades whether or not he faked the find, until the story faded from the public eye. During all that time, it would have no more credence than any of the current examples used by 'young earth' advocates to justify their beliefs.
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True. But doing the research properly and sufficiently would do little-to-nothing to reduce the amount of ridicule he would receive.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
If he does not bring enough people and equipment to scientifically document and back up his discovery, he will deserve being ridiculed.
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From one of my posts in the Plan Z thread, about radical ideas:
Negative reinforcement from society seldom has ANYTHING to do with whether the idea is feasible or not. The guy who first thought up the idea of continental drift got just as much flak for it as the guy who jumped off a bridge flapping his arms with paper wings attached. That one idea became accepted as true and the other doomed to fail had zero impact on the living hell that society put those people through.
Social negative reinforcement is absolutely HORRID at telling an individual whether they're right or not. Ridicule is largely fueled not by whether the idea may be wrong or can't succeed, but only whether it is different from the acceptable norm.
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And even then, most would likely consider it evidence for time travel rather than anything else. I know I would.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
If he does not bring enough people and equipment to scientifically document and back up his discovery, he will deserve being ridiculed.
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That's the reason the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a truism.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
People feel the strongest about religion the worse they are doing in life.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
I guess my real grudge is that the nature of Buddhism made it very hard for the religion to take over the world in a time where blood thirsty Christians killed anyone that dared think different. A world with Buddhism as its largest religion would be an insanely prosperous one.
Not saying I have any believe in the reincarnation bits, but the core of the religion is all about tolerance and enlightenment. Would you not love to see those words describe all religious people? |
Religion evolves. (Yes, I see the irony of that statement for Born Agains.) Like a virus, it decreases its virulence over time. The most dangerous strains of a virus kill their hosts too quickly to propagate successfully, so they become milder and milder. Syphilis used to eat people's faces off and destroy their brains the way Mad Cow does today, but it's become less and less destructive over the generations. The common cold was probably once a scourge like ebola or hanta.
Buddhism wasn't always sweetness and light. Heck, virtually every martial art can be traced to Buddhism, and the self-defensive ones came long after the "kill the other guy efficiently" versions. Islam is still in its virulent stage, being half as old as Christianity, which is evolving into the Hippie Jesus version despite a couple still-dangerous strains like the one found among the military. (One of our generals once said -- out loud! -- that the reason we won in Desert Storm was because our god was bigger than their god.)
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I dont have an issue with the final idea, but I have an issue with any blind jumps of faith like that. For one, some churches and religions have no issue with same sex relationships, and Catholicism is very progressive in scientific advancements (although narrow minded in their sexuality and conception ideas.)
If you are an atheist because you have realized that a god does not make sense in the universe, great. If you are an atheist because you are cranky at the church you were raised into, or due to what some group of people in certain religion did then you are doing just as bad (those atheist tend to be extremely intolerant) and end up falling in the already mentioned category of faith in atheism group.
(I acknowledge I am simplifying things down drastically, but this is a topic that would take books worth of typing to cover)