I honestly hope we haven't given up already. Have you given up?
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2012-11-08 17:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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We live in a society where the ideas of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are presented to almost all children.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
That is relative to what was the accepted reality at the time in which deviation of thought occurred. Atheism is currently the deviation, so if anything, disbelief requires more faith. Certainly not as hard as what the pioneers of the movement went through, but it's still an uphill battle.
The only way one could not believe in a god without faith, is if they were somehow able to grow up in a society where the idea of gods was never presented to them. For better or worse, we do not live in such a society. |
As adults, does it really require a great act of faith not to believe in them?
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You mean all I need to do to prove to myself there's no god is to point a surveillance camera at my fireplace on Christmas Eve? |
Originally Posted by Brillig
We live in a society where the ideas of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are presented to almost all children.
As adults, does it really require a great act of faith not to believe in them? |
Why didn't I think of that?!
Oh, wait. That might just mean I'm naughty instead of nice. Nevermind.
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I don't have evidence to weigh in on the existence of god. I am willing to wager that whatever god there is, isn't the one that anyone is selling. On the reverse, Religious people tend to be more comfortable with themselves and their relationship to society than the atheists are.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
You mean all I need to do to prove to myself there's no god is to point a surveillance camera at my fireplace on Christmas Eve?
Why didn't I think of that?! Oh, wait. That might just mean I'm naughty instead of nice. Nevermind. |
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Well, this is actually a perfectly logical situation. At least in a democracy. The theist majority is comfortable because the majority of voters share their beliefs. The atheist minority is uncomfortable because the majority of voters are controlling their future on the basis of children's stories.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I don't have evidence to weigh in on the existence of god. I am willing to wager that whatever god there is, isn't the one that anyone is selling. On the reverse, Religious people tend to be more comfortable with themselves and their relationship to society than the atheists are.
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Of course, that really depends on the majority having the same (or highly similar) belief structures. You get a true plurality of beliefs and you'll see some discomfort. Or was I just imagining an inordinate amount of time being spent on Romney's Mormonism?
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I fully agree with that assessment. Based on when you chimed in though, I'm putting this disclaimer out there now about my spiritual discussions in this thread: I have not been advocating for the possibility of any specific god, just the possibility of a god at all.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I don't have evidence to weigh in on the existence of god. I am willing to wager that whatever god there is, isn't the one that anyone is selling.
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Then, to take all the way back to the original question, I give up because IMO there is no reasoning with anyone who has imaginary friends, or think they might really exist, in the face all known facts.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
I have not been advocating for the possibility of any specific god, just the possibility of a god at all.
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Live well everyone.
This is my last post here.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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And atheists wonder why so many view them as arrogant bullies. They never seem to pay attention to their use of words, even the celebrities.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Then, to take all the way back to the original question, I give up because IMO there is no reasoning with anyone who has imaginary friends, or think they might really exist, in the face all known facts.
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And this isn't a specific response to what you said or an attempt to keep you fighting a stalemate. Just an observation of a lot of the anti-religious talk here. Quoted for example, rather than as a reply.
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"Darwin the Prophet"? Why, I think we have ourselves a creationist here, folks. Not only do you find things that aren't there, but you ignore what's really happening in the world! Amazing!
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
I have absolutely no clue what god it is, and I do not claim to.
It may be the spaghetti monster. And if the behavior of some individuals in this thread is any indication, give the zealotry snowball another 50 years to roll, and the flying spaghetti monster will be passing the Petri Dish around for Tithe offerings, and followers of the old gods will be getting burned at the stake for defying the teachings of Darwin the Prophet. (considering that each of those numbers is for a completely different theory with different mechanics, I saw no point in making a tldr; post to differentiate between them, since it's completely unnecessary for the point I was making. I only used it to exemplifying how little of our world we actually know. Perhaps I should've just used string theory as an example. Science says it may be possible, but due to its nature, there likely will be no way of ever testing its validity) Assuming there's no god requires just as much blind faith as assuming there is one. |
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I think Tim is correct in this instance. There's no reason to believe God exists, but there's likewise no proof God *doesn't* exist, either. So the only reasonable response is to say, "I don't know." That's why I think agnosticism is the only acceptable scientific position to take on this subject.|
Originally Posted by Brillig
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I know a lot of atheists who scoff at Christians claiming there is an all-loving God out there, and they point at things like avalanches wiping out nursery schools as evidence that God doesn't exist. But it's a false argument. Christians who believe in an all-loving God have clearly never read the Bible. (I have 16 years of Bible study under my, well, belt.) God is a dick. He's the universe's first and biggest ***hole. He practiced classic entrapment on Adam & Eve, wiped out humanity except for a couple people (forget about 6 Sigma, the flood wiped people out to 24th Sigma) and would personally f*** with his most devout followers just to prove a point (sorry for all the feels, Job). By that measure, an avalanche erasing a bunch of toddlers is *exactly* God's MO and I would put that forth as strong evidence he's still around.
Me, I'm a "plan for the worst, hope for the best" kind of guy. I'm an agnostic who lives like an atheist. If I'm wrong, God will forgive me and maybe help me out from time to time. If I'm right, I still have my Sunday mornings free.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Transformers IV is out in 2014.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
there's likewise no proof God *doesn't* exist, either.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Starring Marky Mark without his shirt.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Transformers IV is out in 2014.
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Too close to call.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
One pretty good bet is that there is no Mod.
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That's certainly an argument against any benevolent supreme being.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Transformers IV is out in 2014.
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Not true. This is Russell's Teapot all over again. Is it reasonable to presume a sky fairy may exist not only despite no evidence, but despite contrary evidence as well? Is it reasonable to assume a teapot may be orbiting somewhere between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter? Or is it sufficient to understand that both of these things are ludicrous and, in the absence of evidence, to assume that these do not exist with the proviso that you may, MAY be wrong?| I think Tim is correct in this instance. There's no reason to believe God exists, but there's likewise no proof God *doesn't* exist, either. So the only reasonable response is to say, "I don't know." That's why I think agnosticism is the only acceptable scientific position to take on this subject. |
Or hell, just look at the available preponderance of evidence. There are at least four billion people on Earth who are deductively, absolutely, irrefutably wrong, on the basis that Judeo-Christianity is the largest religion on Earth with about three billion adherents and if it's right, all other religions must be wrong. And the number is higher if Judeo-Christianity is wrong but some other religion is right. Since it is evidenced that most religion is wrong, and since no religion really stands out from the crowd, it can be deductively stated beyond a reasonable doubt (but not beyond all doubt) that all religion is bunk, and therefore God (or at least all the gods humanity worships) is very, very likely false.
God is not a 50/50 shot, is what I'm saying. Doubt can be cast on the subject that makes it more like a 1% chance that he actually exists.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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But what evidence do you offer for God's non-existence?|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Not true. This is Russell's Teapot all over again. Is it reasonable to presume a sky fairy may exist not only despite no evidence, but despite contrary evidence as well? Is it reasonable to assume a teapot may be orbiting somewhere between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter? Or is it sufficient to understand that both of these things are ludicrous and, in the absence of evidence, to assume that these do not exist with the proviso that you may, MAY be wrong?
Or hell, just look at the available preponderance of evidence. There are at least four billion people on Earth who are deductively, absolutely, irrefutably wrong, on the basis that Judeo-Christianity is the largest religion on Earth with about three billion adherents and if it's right, all other religions must be wrong. And the number is higher if Judeo-Christianity is wrong but some other religion is right. Since it is evidenced that most religion is wrong, and since no religion really stands out from the crowd, it can be deductively stated beyond a reasonable doubt (but not beyond all doubt) that all religion is bunk, and therefore God (or at least all the gods humanity worships) is very, very likely false. God is not a 50/50 shot, is what I'm saying. Doubt can be cast on the subject that makes it more like a 1% chance that he actually exists. |
That he *doesn't* answer prayers? That's what I said: God is the OG *****. he probably *caused* Sandy and the Indian tsunami and Japanese earthquake and everything else. According to the book these folks believe in, that's what he does. That's all he does. And he will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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There is no proof that God is anything but an egocentric cat that died 6000 years ago either. There are many things there is no proof of; I can't go around giving the benefit of the doubt to everything that "we have no proof against". |
Originally Posted by Ironik
There's no reason to believe God exists, but there's likewise no proof God *doesn't* exist, either.
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Mind you, we have proof the world was not created in 7 days and that man was not created from mud and women from his ribs. So either we do have proof against that creator or we have proof against the guys that wrote that book.
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| So the only reasonable response is to say, "I don't know." That's why I think agnosticism is the only acceptable scientific position to take on this subject. |
I'm an atheist. Once upon a time I was a true believer. I got over it.
If the christian God does exist, I'll be on Hell's front lines leading Satan's armies and will personally feed God his entrails when the inevitable and final war takes place.
The christian god is NOT the good guy in the story the bible shows us. He's a genocidal, sociopathic, psychotic, homophobic, misogynist that needs to suffer for the atrocities he brought upon the universe.
However, there is no god, christian or otherwise. No afterlife. No redemption. No eternal punishment for being his damned creation. We live, we eat, we reproduce, we die. Just like everything else. It's a damn sad thing that so many humans waste so much time and create so much pain for each other over fairy tales and mythology.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Start by grabbing any documentation on said god and look at its comments on creation and the state of the shape of the universe (Earth center of it all) eventually you will find a very high percentage of proof against that documented god.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
But what evidence do you offer for God's non-existence?
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As a species, we're fundamentally insane. Put more than two of us in a room, we pick sides and start dreaming up reasons to kill one another. Why do you think we invented politics and religion?
-Ollie
The Mist
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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Regularly, I let people have their faith and avoid commenting on it because I know a few bits about how people without faith would just collapse into endless depression. Without faith in a god, many would collapse in an instant.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
However, there is no god, christian or otherwise. No afterlife. No redemption. No eternal punishment for being his damned creation. We live, we eat, we reproduce, we die. Just like everything else. It's a damn sad thing that so many humans waste so much time and create so much pain for each other over fairy tales and mythology.
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My problem comes when religious groups take faith further than it should and try to use it as a way to sell politics and impose absurd moral choices on everyone else or get in the way of scientific advancement.
I also have a bit of a thing about the whole you have no proof against arguments.
Aye. Our current political environment is a shining example of the evil of religion.
As for those that use religion as a crutch because they can't cope with the concept of an objectively meaningless existence... **** 'em. It doesn't take that much effort to create one's own meaning to continue living.
Be well, people of CoH.
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*shrug* People need to get away from the crutch of religion. I actually became happier when I became an atheist. And that's another thing. Very few atheists have been atheists all their lives, so it's amusing when people (not you) start talking about how atheists are "closed minded" and "wouldn't accept evidence of God". We were open minded enough to reject religion...
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Regularly, I let people have their faith and avoid commenting on it because I know a few bits about how people without faith would just collapse into endless depression. Without faith in a god, many would collapse in an instant.
My problem comes when religious groups take faith further than it should and try to use it as a way to sell politics and impose absurd moral choices on everyone else or get in the way of scientific advancement. I also have a bit of a thing about the whole you have no proof against arguments. |
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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hear hear
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Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
*shrug* People need to get away from the crutch of religion. I actually became happier when I became an atheist. And that's another thing. Very few atheists have been atheists all their lives, so it's amusing when people (not you) start talking about how atheists are "closed minded" and "wouldn't accept evidence of God". We were open minded enough to reject religion...
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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I strongly disagree with that last bit. It takes some very strong mindset, and a very hopeful mentality to go forth without faith. It still may sound easy, but there are a lot of people that are being slapped by life left and right so hard, it's nearly impossible to develop any self-confidence.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
As for those that use religion as a crutch because they can't cope with the concept of an objectively meaningless existence... **** 'em. It doesn't take that much effort to create one's own meaning to continue living.
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I have family in this state. If you are close to people like this, you may see interesting things. People feel the strongest about religion the worse they are doing in life.
I guess my real grudge is that the nature of Buddhism made it very hard for the religion to take over the world in a time where blood thirsty Christians killed anyone that dared think different. A world with Buddhism as its largest religion would be an insanely prosperous one.
Not saying I have any believe in the reincarnation bits, but the core of the religion is all about tolerance and enlightenment. Would you not love to see those words describe all religious people?
The only way one could not believe in a god without faith, is if they were somehow able to grow up in a society where the idea of gods was never presented to them. For better or worse, we do not live in such a society.