That was genuinely awesome. Thanks very much, Positron, and if that miracle you spoke of happens...let's just skip the moonbase. Clearly, the universe has a karmic mad-on for that particular project.
(In fact, logically speaking, just the fact that you no longer think the moonbase is feasible because the game is gone means that it's coming back! Woo! 
)
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Yup. Instead we got two years of Praetorian storylines. And we know how well that turned out :\
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
No noNONONONONO NO!
NO! NO! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
THIS IS PARAGON AND WE ARE NOT AFRAAAAID!
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I almost certainly enjoyed the Praetorian War story more than I would a Rikti-inspired archetype.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Yup. Instead we got two years of Praetorian storylines. And we know how well that turned out :\
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And no, that's not meant to be damning with faint praise. While the Praetorian War wore on a bit longer than I might have liked, I had no major issues with it as a concept for them to dwell on for an extended period.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Considering they answered part of the question, it's just disappointing they didn't answer it fully. They said what Genesis would do, despite it not being a lore question, so saying they didn't answer the rest of it because it's not a lore question is a silly response.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Yes, because that's not a lore question.
It'd be like asking Hawkward "So, were there plans to make customizable weapon auras?" |
Thanks Positron. Took a while to get through this. Even sadder now that I knew what was coming.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
It is pretty much irrelevant at this point, but while that document reveals a very impressive amount of knowledge, it gives me the opportunity to say that i would...never subscribe to the game again. Why?
Because in every other question the phrases "we didn't/don't have time" "too much work invovled" keep crawling up like maggots. I'm sorry, but i'm talking genuinely out of interest and not personal spite. If you can't do this or do that or you have no time, why did you bother with anything at all? Why did you bother creating things if you cannot maintain them? For example, you said that Grandville (as you have described), was a "poorly made in the first place" and you explain us in the end that it "It would’ve been, I believe, 2 solid months of an artists time to fix it; unfortunately, it was time we never had.", or that a second ouroboros, which is pretty much new content would put a huge strain on your resources. Well, that happens with new content now doesn't it? I was very dissapointed by these answers. All these interesting (and sometimes vital proposals for the modernization of the game) would probably never come to fruition even if the studio hadn't closed. Meh...
Freedom: @Negatron T-130
Currently on:
Aenisha - Titan Weapons/Energy Aura Scrapper Redside
--The fatal flaw in every plan is the assumption that you know more than your enemy.--
Quote:
I don't understand the complaint. Did you enjoy the game? Did you enjoy the things they were doing? If the answer to that question was yes for enough players, then they were doing the right thing by focusing on those things and not stuff that would be nice to have. They could either go improve old and/or unfinished stuff, or they could work on new stuff. And given that choice, they simply often did not have time to work on the old stuff.|
Originally Posted by Armath
Because in every other question the phrases "we didn't/don't have time" "too much work invovled" keep crawling up like maggots. I'm sorry, but i'm talking genuinely out of interest and not personal spite. If you can't do this or do that or you have no time, why did you bother with anything at all? Why did you bother creating things if you cannot maintain them? For example, you said that Grandville (as you have described), was a "poorly made in the first place" and you explain us in the end that it "It wouldve been, I believe, 2 solid months of an artists time to fix it; unfortunately, it was time we never had.", or that a second ouroboros, which is pretty much new content would put a huge strain on your resources. Well, that happens with new content now doesn't it? I was very dissapointed by these answers. All these interesting (and sometimes vital proposals for the modernization of the game) would probably never come to fruition even if the studio hadn't closed. Meh...
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I completely understand that different players have vested interests in different parts of the game and/or its lore, and if you're saying that the parts of the lore or game you cared most about were never going to get fixed, then yeah, you were probably never going to be satisfied. It's ludicrous though, to ask why they ever did anything to start with. You always start things thinking they'll have the use and focus to justify maintaining or improving them ... and sometimes you're wrong.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah, I've been meaning to quiz the PinnFolks who were interested in me possibly setting up that "Dawn of Praetoria" PbP game and toss a few systems at them to see what sort of style they want to see in use. It could be anything from GURPS to FASERIP Marvel to Amber to Fireborn.|
Originally Posted by _Tacitala_
I've pondered seeing if I (given permission from Titan Network) could use the info in Mids to work out how to put the powers in to another game (maybe using the fan created 'partial powers' system of the Amber Diceless RPG). If I really had time, I'd see if I could work out how to use Mids as a RPG system in and of itself.
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I'm leaning towards "Truth and Justice" or "Dogs in the Vineyard," personally. Something where you can put part of your character sheet on the line if it's important enough. Although, I do sort of like the idea of fitting Mids into it somehow.
Anyone else tried this yet?
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Welcome to the real world. Work takes time and money and, unless we're dealing with James Cameron or Scrooge McDuck, budget and time deadlines will get in the way. You'll notice that there were things that were on the agenda after being seemingly put off forever, such as the moonbase and the end of the Coming Storm storyline. Just because things can't be done right when the creators would like to do them doesn't mean they never get done. It means they sit on the back burner until they can come back to it.|
Originally Posted by Armath
It is pretty much irrelevant at this point, but while that document reveals a very impressive amount of knowledge, it gives me the opportunity to say that i would...never subscribe to the game again. Why?
Because in every other question the phrases "we didn't/don't have time" "too much work invovled" keep crawling up like maggots. I'm sorry, but i'm talking genuinely out of interest and not personal spite. If you can't do this or do that or you have no time, why did you bother with anything at all? Why did you bother creating things if you cannot maintain them? For example, you said that Grandville (as you have described), was a "poorly made in the first place" and you explain us in the end that it "It would’ve been, I believe, 2 solid months of an artists time to fix it; unfortunately, it was time we never had.", or that a second ouroboros, which is pretty much new content would put a huge strain on your resources. Well, that happens with new content now doesn't it? I was very dissapointed by these answers. All these interesting (and sometimes vital proposals for the modernization of the game) would probably never come to fruition even if the studio hadn't closed. Meh... |
People have a habit of idealizing creative projects like movies and games into a purely psychological exercise that should never be held back by anything but the creator's vision. In reality, there are limits to what can be done, and the document shows the nitty gritty realities of how Paragon was balancing what they wanted to do with what could feasibly be done with the technology, the budget and the deadlines involved. If the fact that there are limits at all bothers you, you're going to be very disappointed with how pretty much any creative industry works. Even authors have to deal with deadlines once they have a publishing deal.
"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."
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This has nothing to do with personal preferences. All of these questions bundled up together encompass a huge part of the game, if not the whole game and pretty much the standard phases i've seen were these two above. It didn't really matter to which issue they were addressing themselves as to how frequently they were doing it. If for every question all you have to answer is "i don't have time for this or i can't work on that", then maybe you should consider a change of working environment. Part of being a developer as i see it is creating new content which finds me in complete agreement (even if you check some question's answers that have to do with new content still contained the "no time/too much work" motto) but fixing broken things is equally important as a quality of life thing.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't understand the complaint. Did you enjoy the game? Did you enjoy the things they were doing? If the answer to that question was yes for enough players, then they were doing the right thing by focusing on those things and not stuff that would be nice to have. They could either go improve old and/or unfinished stuff, or they could work on new stuff. And given that choice, they simply often did not have time to work on the old stuff.
I completely understand that different players have vested interests in different parts of the game and/or its lore, and if you're saying that the parts of the lore or game you cared most about were never going to get fixed, then yeah, you were probably never going to be satisfied. It's ludicrous though, to ask why they ever did anything to start with. You always start things thinking they'll have the use and focus to justify maintaining or improving them ... and sometimes you're wrong. |
Freedom: @Negatron T-130
Currently on:
Aenisha - Titan Weapons/Energy Aura Scrapper Redside
--The fatal flaw in every plan is the assumption that you know more than your enemy.--
Quote:
Either you and I were reading the same document, or you were reading it through a filter that very much did have to do with your personal preferences. I can say that simply because I read the document, and while that answer was there for some things that disappointed me, it was there for somethings I frankly didn't care much that was the answer to, and it was not there for everything they answered.|
Originally Posted by Armath
This has nothing to do with personal preferences. All of these questions bundled up together encompass a huge part of the game, if not the whole game and pretty much the standard phases i've seen were these two above.
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Moreover, this was a document primarily on lore. People were asking about various story elements, some just stubs, some more filled out but old, and some new. While lore is usually used to explain movement in the game, such as new TFs, zones, enemies and sometimes even powersets, fleshing out old lore is not key to progressing the game. I like the lore to move forward, but, to pick an example, I don't need them to revisit and extend Cimerora to get new powersets or new TFs or new Incarnate powers. They could give us completely new lore that provides those things. I want new things to do and new shinies, and I don't really need them to update old lore to get those things.
I'm not a big fan of tons of dangling lore, but the game likely never depended on them tying up loose ends.
Edit: One other thing. The questions were not something we could consider a good statistical sample of things we could use to make broad conclusions about how often the devs left something dangling, and I don't mean because its a small sample set. I say that because people were most likely to ask questions about lore that's old and incomplete because its old and incomplete. What the answers tell us is that a lot of things which are old and incomplete are that way because the devs didn't have time to revisit it. We can't, however, safely extend that to say that the devs leave everything incomplete.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Yeah, this is still troubling me. Two of my questions which haven't been answered yet related to this. First, is Prometheus really Ermeeth? Second, Prometheus says in-game that the Well of Primal Earth used to be a person--who was it, and could another person ever take his/her place?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I would have had at least two separate devs on my side to tackle refactoring this part of canon, sigh.
Except, Tim, that doesn't fully explain how its possible to devour or destroy a Well permanently. That would seem to be impossible under that theory. |
Maybe we'll get more answers on these. If not, thank you immensely for clarifying as much as you did! I was most looking forward to diving deeper into Prometheus, the Well and the whole sordid history between them.
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Hey, to each his own. I'd rather have a dev team that thinks big only to be frustrated by logistical constraints. |
Originally Posted by Armath
This has nothing to do with personal preferences. All of these questions bundled up together encompass a huge part of the game, if not the whole game and pretty much the standard phases i've seen were these two above. It didn't really matter to which issue they were addressing themselves as to how frequently they were doing it. If for every question all you have to answer is "i don't have time for this or i can't work on that", then maybe you should consider a change of working environment. Part of being a developer as i see it is creating new content which finds me in complete agreement (even if you check some question's answers that have to do with new content still contained the "no time/too much work" motto) but fixing broken things is equally important as a quality of life thing.
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Apparently, you would rather have a dev team that only plans to do what is guaranteed to be doable, in full, from the first moment of conception. How very dull.
I use the word, "Apparently," because I'm assuming that your complaint is actually sensible -- that your complaint centers around the large scope of Paragon's plans, rather than from Paragon's inability to follow through on all of those plans. If, alternatively, you're genuinely trying to argue that logistical concerns have no place in the conversation, then you're nuts.
Do like your avatar pic, though.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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It depends on how broken it is. Grandville causing more lag is less broken than say, a bug in the SSA which stops the mission from being completed.
It comes down to a matter of resources and profit. Paragon was A) a small studio and B) needed to continually produce items that garnered profit. That's why new content took precedence. Fixing stuff can be a quality of life improvement but more often, stuff like Grandville is more cosmetic than function so it's not high on the list of priorities.
Or worse it's something that was broken by previous developers and left in an unfixed state and the best people to be able to fix it have left. Look at bases and mayhem/safeguard missions. Both things that really needed fixing but just the sheer amount of time to A) Reverse engineer to simply have an understanding of its workings and B) work out how to implement changes/fixes/upgrades without breaking the system (if it was even possible) is pretty high compared to what it would require to just build new things from scratch or that already work within the existing engine and are well documented and understood (costume sets, powers, zones, etc).
And it isn't like they didn't get around to fixing stuff when they could spare five minutes. I mean look at everything that was getting fixed or changed around in Issue 24. The schedule is always tight but you never know when they get to squeak in something.
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This is basically how software development always works. There is a list of all the features you would like, and all the things that you know are broken that could be fixed. This list is almost always longer than the list of things you can actually do. You have to choose which things on the list you want to do first, and you tend to need to prioritize your work based both on how expensive it is to do something in terms of paying the programmers and artists to do it, and how important it is to the overall health of the game.|
Originally Posted by Armath
Because in every other question the phrases "we didn't/don't have time" "too much work invovled" keep crawling up like maggots. I'm sorry, but i'm talking genuinely out of interest and not personal spite. If you can't do this or do that or you have no time, why did you bother with anything at all?
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They are bothering releasing things because that is what we pay them to do. Most of the things they mentioned are not things they can't do or don't have time to do, they are things that if they did them they wouldn't have had time to do the stuff they did to. Maybe if they didn't release any incarnate trials, they would have had the environmental artist time to fix Grandville. Maybe if they didn't release Street Justice or Titan Weapons, they would have had animator time to add more enemy groups. They can't work on everything they can imagine because we don't pay them enough money to do that, so they have to decide what things we really want, how much those things cost, and how they can give us the best return for our gaming dollar. This is a good thing, but it means that stuff with bad cost/player desire ratios just doesn't get done, because they can do other stuff we want more instead.
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The AT was only a part. The story would've involved an actual aftermath to the Rikti war storyline (something we never got), having Traditionalists integrating into human society instead of chilling out in Vanguard HQ, while also revamping a dead zone into one with life. It would've also answered questions and fleshed out Rikti society and history more while continuing Hero One's path to regaining control and becoming a hero once more. Crey could've had more presence, as well, since it is Crey's Folly being revamped. They might have tried spearheading the reconstruction efforts while trying to get in tight with Vanguard or the government.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I almost certainly enjoyed the Praetorian War story more than I would a Rikti-inspired archetype.
And no, that's not meant to be damning with faint praise. While the Praetorian War wore on a bit longer than I might have liked, I had no major issues with it as a concept for them to dwell on for an extended period. |
Instead we got the goatee universe transformed into a not-so-goatee universe, time spent focusing on alternate reality versions of Primal characters while the Primal characters themselves are neglected, stories that had nothing to do with Primal Earth or even the important people in Praetoria (First/Night Ward), and in the end there was hardly even a genuine resolution as Praetoria was completely destroyed and the Hamidon won, making everything that was worked on pointless.
Plus Prae never even gave us an epic AT, anyway, which was a very hot topic many people asked for.
I'm not saying the Prae story wasn't enjoyable at parts, but I genuinely think they could've done way more with that Post Rikti War story, instead.
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Venge bait... |
Originally Posted by Everfree_Fire
Then what are blasters considered?
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"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
Positron, Protean, Arbiter Hawk, Doc Aeon, Viridian, Black Scorpion, Warwitch, thank you for giving us these answers, and thank you for all the work you put into the City over the years. I probably didn't say it enough, so here it goes one last time - you devs rock!
Best wishes,
Zem
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Best post ever, you win my Internet trophy, given to me during the Great Internet War (I forget which one at the moment).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
 "PARAGON HEAR ME! It is true what many of you have heard. The publishers have set a shutdown date and as I speak that shutdown date is drawing nearer to our home. Believe me when I SAY we have a difficult time ahead of us but if we are to be PREPARED for it we must FIRST shed our FEEER of it. I stand hear before you now truly UNAFRAID! WHY?! Because I believe something you do not? NOOO! I stand here without fear because I remember. I remember that I am HEEEER not because of the path that lay before me, but because of the path that lies BEHIND me! I remember that for eight and a half YEEEERS we have played this game! I remember that for eight and a half YEEEERS trolls have tried to dishearten us and after a decade of gameplay I remember that which matters most! WE ARE STILL HERE! Let us send a message to NCSoft! Let us shake this game! Let us tremble the warwalls of earth, steel and forcefield! Let us be heard from weatherless sky to weird moon! Tonight let us make them remember THIS IS PARAGON AND WE ARE NOT AFRAAAAID! |
Also, my new sig!
(Haha just kidding.
)(Maybe.
)
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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This is an inaccurate reading of what was there.|
Originally Posted by Armath
This has nothing to do with personal preferences. All of these questions bundled up together encompass a huge part of the game, if not the whole game and pretty much the standard phases i've seen were these two above. It didn't really matter to which issue they were addressing themselves as to how frequently they were doing it. If for every question all you have to answer is "i don't have time for this or i can't work on that", then maybe you should consider a change of working environment. Part of being a developer as i see it is creating new content which finds me in complete agreement (even if you check some question's answers that have to do with new content still contained the "no time/too much work" motto) but fixing broken things is equally important as a quality of life thing.
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They didn't have time or resources to do some things because they had to devote that time and those resources to other things. It comes down to stuff like "Should we revamp Grandville or should we introduce new content?" and often new content wins out. It's not that they didn't want to do these things it's that they constantly had to prioritize. And "No time or resources to do it now" doesn't mean "never." Well, it does now, but it didn't when the future wasn't so bleak.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Agreed, thanks to everyone for your thoughtful answers. I hope somehow we can still see some version of your future plans.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Positron, Protean, Arbiter Hawk, Doc Aeon, Viridian, Black Scorpion, Warwitch, thank you for giving us these answers, and thank you for all the work you put into the City over the years. I probably didn't say it enough, so here it goes one last time - you devs rock!
Best wishes, Zem |
Global name: @k26dp
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Well, at least we agree on the fact that they *are* butt monkeys. |
Originally Posted by Agent White
I feel bad, the Shining Stars seem to be like the C-list whipping boys for when the villains need some butt monkeys to beat up on.
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Well that was a fun, albeit somewhat depressing, way to spend three hours.
Thanks for doing that, guys.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.