Tanks vs Brutes
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-07-30 23:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
In what world do you live that the Brute AoE taunt with the same radius and target cap (for the Taunt component, at least) is not an AoE? Had you been comparing Scrappers and Tankers you'd be right, but you're the first person in this thread that made the claim that Brute Taunt isn't as effective at generating aggro as the Tanker version. And you're doing it while talking about how incorrect someone else is when what you're saying is also up for debate while you're claiming "facts".|
Originally Posted by planet_J
No, because tanker taunt is a completely different animal and is an AoE, brute taunt per attack is not an AoE. Plus, tanks bruising increases damage dealt by the party, brutes may do more damage by themselves, but tanks up the damage done by a group...it levels out alot more closely than you think in groups...20% more damage done by others is still 20% anyway you slice it.
|
Yes, Bruising will improve the team's damage to one target. That may make up the difference in damage on a team. And that's the only part that I quoted here that's even remotely close to true.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by planet_J
No, it doesn't see above...Brute taunt is not an AoE and tanker taunt is...brutes, like tanks, can taunt per attack...but it is also not an AoE. The only thing they share really is magnitude and suppressed range
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Werner and Hopeling - thanks for the info guys, just what I needed.
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Let's try an example with nice round numbers.
Your Brute has 2000 hit points, 40% resistance to everything, 45% defense to everything, and heals 30 HP/S. So your Tanker has 2500 hit points, 60% resistance to everything, 45% defense to everything, and heals 37.5 HP/S. You're being attacked with 2000 HP/S of damage. On the Brute, defense drops that to 100 HP/S. Resistance drops that to 60 HP/S. Healing drops that to 30 HP/S. On the Tanker, defense drops that to 100 HP/S. Resistance drops that to 40 HP/S. Healing drops that to 2.5 HP/S. Now, in a sense, yes, the difference that resistance makes is only 20 HP/S on incoming damage of 2000 HP/S, so a 1% difference. True. But can you see that 2000 HP/S is an unhelpful thing to compare to, and 1% an unhelpful result? The difference that really matters to us is between 40 HP/S and 60 HP/S, and that's a lot more significant that 1% would imply. And of course your health is only applied to the damage that gets through all of that. So in that sense, your 25% higher health is only absorbing a tiny fraction of the damage. But that tiny fraction is still an arguably significant 40 or 60 HP/S. All told, it's the difference between taking 30 HP/S and 2.5 HP/S, the difference between surviving about 1 minute and about 17 minutes. That's probably not going to make any difference in the outcome of this particular fight. So people are generally satisfied with Brutes. Now let's say you want to know how much incoming damage each can take indefinitely. The number you come up with is generally referred to as "survivability". Your Brute can indefinitely survive 1000 HP/S of incoming damage: 1000 * 5% = 50, 50 * 60% = 30, 30 - 30 = 0. Your Tanker can indefinitely survive 1875 HP/S of incoming damage: 1875 * 5% = 93.75, 93.75 * 40% = 37.5, 37.5 - 37.5 = 0. Now, I have defined survivability a little differently than standard. We normally define "incoming damage" as what you'd have been actually hit with if you had no mitigation, so we'd want to including the 50% to-hit already. I kept it as what I'd call "output damage", since you were using the 95% figure rather than the more commonly-accepted 90% figure for the mitigation provided by 45% defense. I personally have always used "output damage" when crunching numbers. But the two are equivalent for comparisons. All survivability numbers would just be cut in half for the more common definition, and thus the comparison would still show the same % difference. So based on this generally-accepted definition, most of us would say that the Tanker has 87.5% better survivability than the Brute. It won't make much practical difference in most fights. But sometimes, that huge raw survivability difference does come into play. |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
It will be interesting to see what happens with Bio Armor.
In theory, Tankers will be able to complete most game content with Offensive Adaptation; but Brutes will have to make a lot more use of Defensive and Efficient Adaptations.
So this should, to some degree, level things out.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
He's obviously talking about gauntlet vs. punchvoke. Calm down and quit flaming people. The worst you can accuse him of is imprecise language.
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
In what world do you live that the Brute AoE taunt with the same radius and target cap (for the Taunt component, at least) is not an AoE?
|
Quote:
Only in the sense of where Tankers start out for soloing. IE, what I said about Brutes starting from a better damage to survivability ratio for what the game actually demands.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
It will be interesting to see what happens with Bio Armor.
In theory, Tankers will be able to complete most game content with Offensive Adaptation; but Brutes will have to make a lot more use of Defensive and Efficient Adaptations. So this should, to some degree, level things out. |
Brutes are more optimal for soloing than Tankers, yet have the buffability for team content.
So yes, Bio will allow for better soloing on low end Tankers. But, AFAIK, Offensive Adaptation still only works with +damage buffs. Meaning on many teams it's mostly pointless because of the Tanker's low damage cap. And high end Tankers can hit their cap solo without a damage boosting primary, so Bio Offensive only gets them to that same wall faster/sooner.
Ultimately, Brutes will still be able to capitalize more on all three stances in more situations because they have a greater envelope to work with.
But really, what's the difference of a Tanker running in Offensive Adaptation all the time and a Fire/whatever Tanker? If Fire doesn't 'level things out' why would Bio Offensive? Yes, it's nice to have another option for an offensively geared Tanker, and Bio comes with more flexibility (the whole point of the set) but I don't think Bio Armour on it's own will "fix" anything with Tanker and Brutes.
.
Quote:
Let me rebuild the quote tree, relinking to the OP and adding highlights:|
Originally Posted by Garent
He's obviously talking about gauntlet vs. punchvoke. Calm down and quit flaming people. The worst you can accuse him of is imprecise language.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by planet_J
Quote:
|
I stand by my statements. Would you like to revise yours?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Seriously. Quit being so confrontational.
|
Originally Posted by planet_J
brute taunt per attack is not an AoE.
|
Quote:
I am capable of reading the post. I did not disagree with the snippet part that you quoted, I disagreed with the part that before it and I quoted the whole thing, which was a reply to "Would a Brute with Taunt have been completely interchangable without the team really noticing? Perhaps.", and the response was "No, because tanker taunt is a completely different animal and is an AoE" with some extra junk at the end. Did you bother to even read the parts I highlighted for your convenience from later on in the same post? Tell me how the tiny snippet that I didn't address invalidates any of what I said about the power called Taunt.
|
Originally Posted by Garent
Seriously. Quit being so confrontational.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Okay.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Tell me how the tiny snippet that I didn't address invalidates any of what I said about the power called Taunt.
|
You responded to this.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by planet_J
No, because tanker taunt is a completely different animal and is an AoE, brute taunt per attack is not an AoE.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
In what world do you live that the Brute AoE taunt with the same radius and target cap (for the Taunt component, at least) is not an AoE? Had you been comparing Scrappers and Tankers you'd be right, but you're the first person in this thread that made the claim that Brute Taunt isn't as effective at generating aggro as the Tanker version. And you're doing it while talking about how incorrect someone else is when what you're saying is also up for debate while you're claiming "facts".
|
Siolfir, thanks again for backing me up on this. I did, in fact, mean the power. Which is why I said Taunt (the power) and not "Punchvoke" or "Gauntlet," which are separate powers.
I didn't know the difference between the base damage modifier for Brutes and Tankers. I'll freely admit that. However, that .05 scale difference is gone in about five seconds of fighting on a Brute, so I feel it's largely moot.
I also didn't know the -range component on the Brute version of Taunt (again, the power, not Punchvoke or Gauntlet) wasn't AoE. Seems like an odd distinction, but may have been implemented for the sake of differentiating between the two.
Does Bruising give a debuff that benefits the team? Absolutely. If the Tank focuses on a hard target Boss/EB/AV, that debuff is solid and lasts throughout the fight. If the Tank focuses on switching targets constantly to spread the debuff around (which lasts 10 seconds and does not stack from same or different casters), then they're basically just Jab-ing everything to make sure the debuff is spread.
Tankers are not debuffers; I firmly believe the Bruising power was implemented to help Tankers (and Tankers only) do more damage while solo or in small teams, so they could feel more relevant to the actual defeating of enemies, rather than standing in the middle of a spawn and waiting for teammates to do the actual defeating.
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
|
Quote:
It also procs toxic damage. Since the proced damage doesn't benefit from +DMG buffs, but does benefit from -res, this is ultimately of more benefit to tanks than brutes.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
But, AFAIK, Offensive Adaptation still only works with +damage buffs.
|
Quote:
| Ultimately, Brutes will still be able to capitalize more on all three stances in more situations because they have a greater envelope to work with. |
Quote:
| But really, what's the difference of a Tanker running in Offensive Adaptation all the time and a Fire/whatever Tanker? If Fire doesn't 'level things out' |
My Fire/SS Tank easily out-damages my Staff/Regen Brute, and has better survivability.
The difference is, a Brute can also be SS/Fire, but a perma-offensive Bio Brute has the survivability of soggy paper.
But the thing is, if you want to do more damage and have a gimmicky mechanic, Brutes are available to everyone. All your suggestions boil down to "turn tankers into brutes", which achieves nothing apart from reducing choice.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
Well in that story, an ELA Armor Brute could of likely pulled that all off as well.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Pretty much.
A Brute, with proper team support, can do pretty much anything a Tanker can do. Tankers really shine when the solid waste hits the oscillating unit and the team is too busy trying to save their own skins to also provide support to a Brute. One of my favorite Tanker moments was a wipe on the last phase of BAF (this was quite some time ago, when BAF failures weren't unheard of), with people coming back from the hospital in a continual trickle and being scythed down as quickly as they could arrive by 9CUs that had ramped way up (not sure how many players are still aware of this, but they get an increasing tohit and damage buff the longer they stay alive). With a few purple inspirations, my Elec Armor energy resists, and a flurry of taunts and punches, I was able to gather most of the horrifically deadly 9CU aggro onto myself and get them bunched up long enough for the league to regroup and wipe them out, and we scraped out a win with less than a minute on the clock. Such moments are less and less common these days, it seems. Chalk it up to power creep, more people knowing the trials, et cetera. If you really want to tank more than anything else, a Tanker is the way to go. Otherwise, Brutes are your AT. |
Same Energy Resists as the Tanker (as Brutes hit 90% Energy Resist on their own with ELA) and the use of purple skittles.
All the ELA Tanker has over the ELA Brute in that setting is a few more HP for a bit more of a Self Heal, and a bit more Regen from the Self Heal. Not to sure if the HP difference is enough to survive to many more hits to make a difference (but possible).
One of the reasons I'm for Brutes having a 85% Resist cap.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
No, the part he quoted in his reply did. I even highlighted it, now in both of my previous two posts. Reading comprehension FTL?
|
Originally Posted by Garent
You started talking about taunt the power.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Actually, I will side with the other guy in this one. He said "Brute taunt".|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
No, the part he quoted in his reply did. I even highlighted it, now in both of my previous two posts. Reading comprehension FTL?
|
I am not sure others, but I have taken the habit of being very specific while refering to Taunt The Power (capitalizing and then following it with "The Power") precisely because of this. I also refer to the AoE effect tankers have in single target attacks by it's proper name: Gauntlet.
It's easy assume if he says "Brute taunt is single target" that he means the "taunt" in brute's attacks. If you decide there is room for confussion, you can always declare it as a clarification.
With all that junk out of the way:
Tanker Gauntlet effect has, in many attacks, absurdly short range and duration. The radius tends to be so low that it may only affect enemies that would likely already be affected by your taunt aura or simply already aggroed on you.
The true aggro tools for tankers end up being PBAoEs that do damage and taunt combined, and those tend to be shared with brute counterparts, with the brute version being more effective thanks to higher damage. As it stands, tankers dont really have much of a true advantage at aquiring Aggro over brutes.
I would standarize all tanker attacks so they have a 17ft radius gauntlet effect (the same as now Knockout Blow has) and I would boost the range of Taunt The Power to 20ft plus increase it's cap to 10 foes.
Finally, tanker taunt auras should have a 15ft radius, however all debuff effects, damage effects, and any self buffs the power grants should be limited to the current power radius. This will make things like Invincibility for tankers be able to taunt enemies that are 15ft away, but only yield +Def for enemies within 8ft.
This has no overpowering side effects, it simply makes it easier for tankers to grab aggro than for brutes. It's a way of making tankers better at aggro management.
Quote:
I agree here. J mentioned in the same sentence that brute taunt is not an aoe, and also that punchvoke is not an aoe. He may have mistyped, but the words that ended up in his post very clearly said that all forms of brute taunt are not aoe.
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Let me rebuild the quote tree, relinking to the OP and adding highlights:
The part referenced here indicates a gross misunderstanding while attempting to convey false "fact". The power was specifically referred to in the part that was responded to and it was stated that it was NOT an AoE, and the gauntlet effect was mentioned separately as a difference. I stand by my statements. Would you like to revise yours? |
Quote:
Brutes can reach the S/L defense cap much more easily than tankers. For what it's worth. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Here's the problem. If they're built the exact same way, that Tanker is built way over the survivability that they need.
People tend to say that if you build the exact same way that the Brute has the edge. But that Brute, to get to the Soft-cap for Defense needs to put more into reaching that goal than the Tanker. The Tanker, however, can get their sooner, and use the other powers' slotting to go for other bonuses that the Brute won't be able to. If you're saying that somehow, the Tanker needs the same slotting to get to the same end goal as the Brute, you're doing things wrong. The Tanker will need less bonuses to get to the same end goal, leaving slots for other things. I don't get why some people always leave that part out of this. Basically, you can't have a Tanker and a Brute with the exact same slotting and compare them, because the Tanker is stupid in that case. |
For the OP: Speaking honestly, as someone whose mains are tanks and regularly plays them, you're better off picking a brute if you want to contribute the most you can to a team. An incarnate raid can use one tanker for the resist debuff, and that's it. You're better off picking any other AT than a tanker (Well, maybe not a peacebringer) if you already have one, and in a large raid you're going to have at least one. The tanker can survive better, but it's not really enough to survive the things that will flatline a brute with the same powersets, so ultimately the increased survivability is a bit pointless. This is speaking from the perspective of someone with some PL'd (but not IO'd) brutes with some of the same powersets as my tanks. Maybe it's worth it to be an elec tank...but you run into the same issues - not much will kill an IO'd brute, and the vast majority of things that do will kill an IO'd tank too.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
Quote:
Really? Hm... I'd like to see that math. Can you show me an example. Now you've got me curious.
|
Originally Posted by Tsuji
Brutes can reach the S/L defense cap much more easily than tankers. For what it's worth.
|
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
I have to side with Siolfir on this.
Quote:
It looks to me like two different Taunts are being referred to (see highlight). And both are being stated as not AoE abilities. He is also responding directly to someone saying "Taunt the power". |
Originally Posted by planet_J
No, it doesn't see above...Brute taunt is not an AoE and tanker taunt is...brutes, like tanks, can taunt per attack...but it is also not an AoE.
|
So Siolfir has the right interpretation from what's literally being said and implied. Though I will agree; Siolfir, you could be a little less condescending.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
The only thing I can think of is he has to be talking about ATOs. 10% S/L defense from 4 slots (2 already come with the powers you slotted in) is a pretty nice step up. But in a straight up SO situation (which he claims is his perspective), this is just plain silly to say.
|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Really? Hm... I'd like to see that math. Can you show me an example. Now you've got me curious.
|
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
If you want to change your reason for flaming people from "J is factually incorrect" to "J mistook someone talking about taunt the power for taunt the effect", then go right ahead. You have done the same thing though, as I clearly showed that he was talking about taunt the effect right there, and that you responded by talking about taunt the power.
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
No, the part he quoted in his reply did.
|
Quote:
I don't think that's the case. See my highlight above, he's clearly pointed to two different taunt powers, claiming that both are AoE for tankers only. |
Originally Posted by Garent
"J mistook someone talking about taunt the power for taunt the effect", then go right ahead.
|
/peacemaker
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Well we can infer all day about paragraph X in post Y, but in the quote that started all this he was clearly "brute taunt to attack". Maybe J is an idiot, but my main point is that the insults and flaming were beyond excessive, and I don't think I've ever seen someone get so bent out of shape over me standing in the way of their god given right to flame stupid people on the internet.
Quote:
I assumed it was a typo.
|
Originally Posted by Rylas
The only thing I can think of is he has to be talking about ATOs.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Yeah, but I dont do IOs, so the difference between the electric tank and brute is pretty noticable especially in itrials. Very recently I played them back to back after the thread start date to see in iTrial. The brute got floored more easy (relatively) then the tank version of electric armor, although only when I stopped attacking. The tank didnt kill as quick but the hea;lth bar hardly went anywhere. |
Originally Posted by Tsuji
Brutes can reach the S/L defense cap much more easily than tankers. For what it's worth.
For the OP: Speaking honestly, as someone whose mains are tanks and regularly plays them, you're better off picking a brute if you want to contribute the most you can to a team. An incarnate raid can use one tanker for the resist debuff, and that's it. You're better off picking any other AT than a tanker (Well, maybe not a peacebringer) if you already have one, and in a large raid you're going to have at least one. The tanker can survive better, but it's not really enough to survive the things that will flatline a brute with the same powersets, so ultimately the increased survivability is a bit pointless. This is speaking from the perspective of someone with some PL'd (but not IO'd) brutes with some of the same powersets as my tanks. Maybe it's worth it to be an elec tank...but you run into the same issues - not much will kill an IO'd brute, and the vast majority of things that do will kill an IO'd tank too. |
Think as many posters said, when you IO out both, the difference become a little smaller, but looking at them both, and assuming that they are both slotted the same (which they probably shouldnt), the the tank still would have edge in survival then the brute version overall as the set, iirc give the same percentage of buffs/procs regardless of tanker or brute so the tank still would still have advantage. Now if ya slot them differently, say going for max resistance, damage, and recharge, the brute may gain advantage as it seems you can get the brute to near max resistance (although it will take more than the tank) but max is max. Then damage, the brute will have edge here, and recharge about the same for both. IN the end from what I figure and, I could be wrong as vulture driving a Lambo while snorting crack in Utah, seems like an fully IOd Brute and fully IOd tank would be about the same in survival but brute gets edge in damage. But The whole IO thing is irrelevant for me so not sure of the point in me even mentioning it.
But with straight SOs, there is a noticable, at east noticable to me (KEYWORDs: TO ME!) difference in survivalbility of brute and tank of the same powerset.
But allthe information given was very good though and most of it was was very useful insight that applies to me.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
Lots of rambling on about things that are from a skewed perspective.
<snip>
As fair as I'm concerned, two things need to happen with Tankers.
Tanks in CoH are not Colossus, they were never meant to be...nor Thing from Fantastic 4 nor Iron Man, nor any other sensational comic book character...THAT WOULD BE A TANK MAGE tank mages only exist in theory in comic books...they are too overpowered for a real world game...nobody would play anything else...why would they? Be a tank and do damage like Iron Man? I would roll up a silver surfer spoof in a heart beat...but having a toon where a real challenge requires them to solo a Hamidon raid is not the design intent of any AT in this game.
If you want flash and pizzazz play something else. A tank is not, nor will it ever be, designed to be either one. It is a humble AT designed to be the aggro shield for a group...humble doesn't much suit you Johnny...move along to some other AT and quit this ridiculous crusade...you're not a martyr.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22