Tsuji
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Posts
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Quote:Brutes can reach the S/L defense cap much more easily than tankers. For what it's worth.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Here's the problem. If they're built the exact same way, that Tanker is built way over the survivability that they need.
People tend to say that if you build the exact same way that the Brute has the edge. But that Brute, to get to the Soft-cap for Defense needs to put more into reaching that goal than the Tanker. The Tanker, however, can get their sooner, and use the other powers' slotting to go for other bonuses that the Brute won't be able to.
If you're saying that somehow, the Tanker needs the same slotting to get to the same end goal as the Brute, you're doing things wrong. The Tanker will need less bonuses to get to the same end goal, leaving slots for other things. I don't get why some people always leave that part out of this.
Basically, you can't have a Tanker and a Brute with the exact same slotting and compare them, because the Tanker is stupid in that case.
For the OP: Speaking honestly, as someone whose mains are tanks and regularly plays them, you're better off picking a brute if you want to contribute the most you can to a team. An incarnate raid can use one tanker for the resist debuff, and that's it. You're better off picking any other AT than a tanker (Well, maybe not a peacebringer) if you already have one, and in a large raid you're going to have at least one. The tanker can survive better, but it's not really enough to survive the things that will flatline a brute with the same powersets, so ultimately the increased survivability is a bit pointless. This is speaking from the perspective of someone with some PL'd (but not IO'd) brutes with some of the same powersets as my tanks. Maybe it's worth it to be an elec tank...but you run into the same issues - not much will kill an IO'd brute, and the vast majority of things that do will kill an IO'd tank too. -
I'd probably put them in as many attacks as I could. When everything is made PPM, and PPM is changed to work on your actual recharge and not your base recharge, you will almost certainly want as many as you can get
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I've been thinking pretty hard about how to introduce fighting attacks to my tank, since he's SS. So many bad attacks, but rage is so good for pool powers...
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Specifically, increase the DPA of the single target abilities. Especially the first two.
Beyond that, boost dwarf ST damage to be above human form, maybe add some kind of defense against psi to peacebringers, boost pulsar to affect lieutenants. Maybe a damage cap increase, but if normal attacks did decent damage that might be too strong. -
Quote:Assuming we're talking about no IOs, A is good to hear. I was only ever talking single target damage though, aoe is clearly pretty good. But if we're comparing pbs to brutes and tanks I'm not sure a pb is up to either of those ATs level of performance pre IO even considering aoe. My pb isnt even 50 yet though, so maybe the performance is ok after IOs. That brings up the issue that the game isnt supposed to be balanced around ios, though.Originally Posted by Microcosm
A) I don't think this change will make defenders outdamage PB's except in cases where they could significantly boost their own damage, which was already the case.
B) Comparing Defenders to PB's is pretty useless as they serve completely different roles. It is much more worthwhile to compare PB's to Tanks and Brutes.
On an unrelated note, how often do people with peacebringers find cosmic balance buffs their damage? Not sure if its just the time i play, but usually ill have maybe one or two damage boosts with the rest being resist. Id imagine its not an issue in raids, just curious. -
Yeah, it's definitely going to be crazy. I won't pretend I can 100% judge the impact since I haven't pvp'd in ages, but it's definitely making the strong stuff even stronger. Anyone who's even PvP'd once can see it's going to be an issue. And thanks to the ridiculous changes from way back when a lot of the stuff I can think of to counter it (esp resists) doesn't work anymore. It's definitely a legitimate concern.
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I couldn't tell from the video, but is there any way to get something covering up your head? Sort of like that whole body morph from Prototype. I loved using that.
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Quote:If you really think it's ok for a PB to be doing less damage than a defender without accounting for buffs/debuffs then I don't know what to say. If it makes you feel better, I thought peacebringer single target damage was bad before the defender changes too. This just makes it more obvious how bad it is. When a support class is doing more or equal damage with its secondary than peacebringers are with their primary...Especially considering how powerful support abilities are in this game.Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Is this place full of simpletons or what? The changes to any other AT do not make the PB any less effective than it was before the changes.
This is the same kind of silliness people were bringing up about scrappers when Stalkers got a buff.
If the PB needs changes those needs stand alone on their own merit and don't have a damm thing to do with any other AT getting buffed. -
Every snipe is different, it ranges from .828 (according to mids) for assault rifle to 1.884 for fire. Energy is at 1.488
I wonder how the achilles procs becoming ppm will change things too. The only way I can really see a PB outdamaging a defender is with those, and if ppm makes them work less reliably...Ouch. -
I was just looking at my Peacebringer and my time/energy defender and noticed that with the sniper changes on test, the difference in ST damage (without vigilance) is actually quite low. Does that mean that, without considering cosmic balance or vigilance, a number of defender secondaries outdamage Peacebringer primaries? I'm aware you can't have a permanent snipe without a kismet+tactics, but on a team it seems pretty reasonable to assume you'll have enough tohit for it to be permanent.
Just considering a ranged chain I can't really tell for sure. Obviously the defender blows a human form ranged chain out of the water, but in fact I can't tell for sure when considering a chain that incorporates the melee attacks (dwarf and human form) either. To me, it seems like this is a pretty huge problem, given that every defender has extremely powerful buffs or debuffs as a result of being a defender.
What happens when you use a higher damage primary? Is there a situation where a defender will end up doing more single damage sans buffs than a Peacebringer with three damage stacks of cosmic balance? Are there defenders that do more AoE damage than Peacebringers? -
Quote:The funny thing about incarnate content is that while it definitely made the problems with tankers bigger, the incarnate powers themselves also made me more satisfied with my tankers thanks to the damage options.Originally Posted by Flints
I personally feel that the incarnate trials opened up a lot of problems for tankers, but that's probably to do with the sheer numbers of players and ATs, while tankers seem initally built for 8 player teams.
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Quote:As opposed to city of brutes and scrappers? The game hasn't been like that for 8 years. You make it sound like some kind of horrible wasteland where nothing was fun, but I really don't remember it being the big deal everyone always says it was. But given that tanks and scrappers aren't kneecapped by only being allowed one toggle at a time, I can't see it being anything like before.Originally Posted by Pauper
I am filled with trepidation at this news, because I remember what things were like at launch -- there were only 5 ATs and Blasters were the kings of ranged damage. They were also the kings of melee damage, because 'blappers' were far more effective dishing out damage than scrappers were, to the point where some friends I played with were openly questioning why the scrapper AT even existed. They were also the kings of damage mitigation, thanks to a combination of sniping and kiting that allowed them to take advantage of most enemies' inability to deal significant ranged damage versus melee damage, whiich made their ability to avoid enemy 'alphas' superior to even the best-designed tanker.
I don't expect things to return to City of Blasters as a result of Issue 24s release, but anything that moves the game back in that direction would be a mistake, IMO.
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Pauper
I was a storm/dark defender back then, by the way. Not a blaster. -
I found ageless to be worth the most on my softcapped elec tanker. The debuff resist made a huge, huge difference in survival.
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Siege is pretty crazy though, I think the only reason I was able to take him out on my SS tank was due to stacking purples to dodge the heal thing...Assuming it can get dodged.
I guess it's possible I was doing more damage than a brute, but it seems pretty unlikely. -
Quote:If I understand him, what he's saying is that he doesn't want an AT-wide change that affects all blasters the same way, which he thinks will unbalance the combinations that are already OK, but instead a review and rebalancing of blaster primaries and secondaries to give them access to higher dpa abilities, soft control, and defensive abilities.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you're saying hey, Mental Manipulation has a lot of potential survivability so it doesn't need any survivability buffs, sure, it probably doesn't. Anything done to blasters as a whole to improve their survivability can skip over Mental. I'm cool with that. If you're saying Psi Blast does an enormous amount of damage, err, well Telekinetic Blast is darned good. And... that's all I got. With ultrahigh recharge, having one blockbuster DPA attack can greatly increase your maximum single target potential. On the other hand, having three is better.
While your criticism is that many posts about blasters don't have a clear point, your post doesn't have a clear point, beyond noting that some blaster secondaries may need less help than others. That's a point no one else is discussing, because its self-evident.
So, basically, make all the secondaries as good as mental and add some soft controls to the primaries rather than switching up the inherent. -
Quote:In terms of regular buffs you'll find that defense buffs are a bit more common, but so many people take barrier that as long as you're running relatively close to the group you'l probably have at least 1 or 2 on at all times.Originally Posted by Mordheim
Did you find that the relatively low resists were fine on their own, or is it that there were plenty of +res buffs being tossed around to make up for it? Same question to the SR people really. Defense sets scared me because it seemed way easier to use IOs/pool power to fill defensive holes in resist sets rather than vice versa, but it's good to hear that the primarily defensive sets are still holding up to the content!
As for tank choice...I actually found it a bit easier to tank the iTrials on my electric tank than on my willpower tank. Ageless debuff resistance is as big a game changer on elec as rebirth is on SR.
I know a lot of people seem to avoid them, but I'd say (icapped) shield or SR might be best for tanking these things given the huge mix of damage types and status effects and the prevalence of barrier. Just say screw it and take the positional defense, haha...I'm not speaking from experience, though, so maybe there are a lot of non-position attacks flying around that I don't know about. -
Quote:The description is from CoH: Freedom, written a year ago, certainly not 8 years ago. You can argue that blasters are effectively a melee archetype, but they aren't listed as a melee archetype at character creation, which I would say indicates the devs disagree with the idea that they should be balanced around melee. Which, as you point out, is a bit of a problem since their secondaries, and some of their primaries, are packed with melee and pbaoe abilities.Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
every blaster secondary has pbaoes and aoe attacks, debuffs, and melle as well.
that is not ranged.
Many of the descriptions in this game are 8 years old and things changed. What did not change is blaster survivabilty and the highest dmg in game.
That award goes to scrappers and brutes in my book.
hell my tank cant out kill my blaster.
blasters are not even the best at single target killing my MM crushes gms in minutes and avs are not even a thought solo. On blaster its a challenge.
Ideally, the changes to blasters would be a revamp of their secondaries to make more of the powers worth taking and using, especially if you have to risk getting chewed up by AoEs. However, given the amount of design time it requires, I think it's pretty unlikely.
Blaster issues with damage are't the topic of the thread, so lets go back to talking about ways to make them more survivable. -
The whole point of blasters is to be ranged damage, it's in the description and name of the AT. Maybe they can buff the melee range abilities in addition to make the risk more sensible. Inherent controls in their melee abilities or something. But really, barring controls you should have no problems staying at range even in oranbega. Hover in the larger rooms, combat jumping...sprint...The increase in defense helps you dodge status effects that stop you from getting away from enemies.
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Reverse invincibility inherent - blasters start with high defense and resistance, but the more enemies surrounding them the lower their defenses and resistance go, until at some number of enemies, let's say 5 or 6, their inherent defense and resistance is zero.
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Quote:Actually I just looked through my build for you to see what I could do to change it. I didn't have an unlimited budget for my PB, but if you put purples wherever you can get purples you keep the same amount of defense and bring down light form's non-agility recharge to 90.33 seconds, and you get about 30% defense to everything. The force feedback proc should take care of that .33 seconds.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Your build sounds very interesting, but I doubt I can use much of it. I don't like building with iPowers in mind. They're nice, but I want my builds to work at level 20 when I exemplar. When I get home to my computer I'll be sure to look at this to see if I can get a few ideas.
You're the dark tank guy though, so I'm sure you can figure out some other interesting stuff. Let me know if you can come up with something cheaper, haha...
Well, whatever you do, put achilles heel procs in the 3 main single target attacks. It's pretty important for having good ST dps on a human form peacebringer. You should also try fitting damage procs into gleaming bolt.
Given the content in Night Ward and Dark Astoria I would say your idea about boosting E/N defense is a good one, assuming you don't try converting to positional like me. Seems like over half the stuff there has no smashing/lethal modifier. For instance the drudges look like they should be doing the normal fire+smashing, but they're doing negative energy.
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Here's mine, it sacrifices a few things, but in the end you get about 32% defense to all positions and still have perma light form. It won't work out if you're not going to use incarnate abilities, though. But....Considering you've got purples in that build I think it's a safe bet you'll incarnate it out.
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Quote:We do, kind of. On test water blast uses some of Kinetic Melee's animations, although most of them are new.Originally Posted by Starsman
Separate topic, sort off, but since I saw Kinetic Melee I been thinking those animations would also apply perfectly to a blaster set and been pondering: why don't we have a Kinetic Blast yet???
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Quote:I think it's mostly the effect of incarnate abilities. I don't think tankers have any huge problems aside from a total lack of stackability...until IOs and the endgame come into the equation. At that point they suffer some of the same issues as blasters in that they're heavily specialized in something that other ATs can get "enough" of to handle current content, but don't get as much of what other ATs have, be it damage, control, or whatever, to compensate.Originally Posted by Starsman
I think it's the only thing I do in these forums...
Needless to say I have been disapointed I still have not seen a single balance discussion/argument in the Tanker forums since I returned. Every single thread is about X/Y builds.
I ponder if all tankers are content these days, the ones that were discontent just rolled brutes, or it was me that was always starting the fights...
However, a lot of the new incarnate stuff really muddies the issue because now tankers can get "enough" damage to take out current content in a more reasonable amount of time. It doesn't mean that tankers don't still have stackability and damage issues when compared to brutes. In fact, looking right now at my SS tanker vs my SS brute, the brute does almost twice as much AoE damage while also not dying on most +4 x8 groups. But when the damage difference isn't completely in your face all of the time like it was before interface et al it's much less frustrating, and so you have less of a reason to post about it.
The focus is definitely on blasters right now, though, which may also be drawing interest away from tankers. As it should, since their balance issues are far more serious. Tanker issues start in the endgame, but blaster issues seem to start in the 20s-30s. -
Definitely no problems with electric armor. Actually, i recently switched my main to an elec/ss tank. Elec really really benefits from the tanker ato proc. With it double stacked I've got 80 percent resists to most damage, capped to smashing, lethal, and energy, and can still get soft cap s/l def and high energy def along with 60% slow resist, so the heal is reliable even when facing lots of slows. And unlike invuln's psi hole you can handle yours by sapping everything, although that requires incarnate stuff to really work well when io'd for defense. I die in the underground trial final fight sometimes but can solo most stuff on +4 x8 without too much trouble.
Arachnos require ageless and a good kill order, and of course arachnoids are probably out of the question, but it's great aside from that. Don't worry about electric. -
Quote:Not sure, but they're definitely down there with Kheldian and SoA ATOs. Not sure what the justification is for those three ATs having terrible ATO bonuses. Literally every other AT has a defensive bonus except for the defensive AT and the epic ATs. That would make sense if the tanker set had a big offensive bonus....but it doesn't.Originally Posted by Psiphon
I've just been looking at investing in the Tank ATO for my Sd/SS and was comparing the values against the Brute and Scrapper sets, as you said they seem poor in comparison.
Have the dev's given any justification for this?
On the other hand, the proc is awesome, so I don't care that much. I've got 80% resist to all but negative on my tank when the proc is double stacked.
The new ATO set also had pretty terrible bonuses from what I remember seeing, something like 2% resist to all spread out over 3 of the set's bonuses.
The new proc was an absorb though. Maybe it'll work against autohit/unresistable damage? That'd be cool.