How many Achilles procs are too many?
By
Cheetatron,
Posted on: 2012-07-17 12:58 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
When the number of AH procs you have exceeds the number of powers that can slot them, you have too many.
EDIT - I do believe the proc affects enemies as normal when slotted in pseudo-pet powers. The procs that don't work normally are the ones that affect you. For example, a healing proc will heal the pseudo-pet.
My general rule of thumb is this (and keep in mind I could be wrong): It all comes down to who the proc affects. Since you and your pseudo-pet are both attacking the same enemy, any procs that affect the enemy will attack whatever enemy you (or your power) is attacking. If the proc affects who is doing the attacking, then slotting it into oil slick (for example) will heal the oil slick if it procs.
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I'd probably put them in as many attacks as I could. When everything is made PPM, and PPM is changed to work on your actual recharge and not your base recharge, you will almost certainly want as many as you can get
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
IMO. Make sure you AoEs are covered; include ST slotting if you have the space or plan on attacking a lot of 'hard(er)' targets.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
from what i read it makes more sense to fit in as many damage procs as you can before focussing on AH, you have to fit in 360 damage on an AH effected lvl 50 target before the effect of AH equals a single damage proc
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For solo play, maybe, for team/league play; the -res should take priority (IMO).
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
from what i read it makes more sense to fit in as many damage procs as you can before focussing on AH, you have to fit in 360 damage on an AH effected lvl 50 target before the effect of AH equals a single damage proc
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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It depends on how often you plan to use the proc-enhanced powers. And after the procs-per-minute change goes through, the matter will be further complicated, because long-recharge powers will theoretically give you as much as a 90% proc rate.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
Speaking from a "maximum uptime" standpoint... How many Achilles Heel procs are too many? The current build I'm looking at could theoretically fit in 5: 3 in AoE's, 2 in ST attacks. If I'm strictly looking to keep the proc up on as many targets as possible, as much as possible... Would it be worth it? Or is it just a waste of slots (and inf) to go that far? Should I just have one each in a spammable AoE and ST?
On the same subject... Does anyone know how the proc works in pseudopet powers, Oil Slick Arrow specifically? I appreciate any facts/opinions/thoughts on the matter, thanks! |
In a pseudo-pet powers like Oil Slick, the proc should have a chance to fire once for every 10 seconds that the power is active, on each target affected.
But yeah, basically it boils down to how dedicated you are to -RES debuffage. There are diminished returns on adding extra Achilles' Heel procs, but if all you care about is maximizing RES, then it doesn't hurt to have more procs. On the other hand, your Achilles' Heel debuffs will not stack with your teammates' Achilles' Heel debuffs, so if your goal is team support, I'd question the decision to sell out on AH procs.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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at that point there could be countless players applying the effect(I have ah and the pvp one on all my top tier toons where i could fit them) but it doesn't stack it only refreshes
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
For solo play, maybe, for team/league play; the -res should take priority (IMO).
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I understand that; what I'm referring to is that the more -mates you have, the more utility a single AH proc can provide. You're more likely to hit (or even surpass) that '360' marker as your team/league size increases; while a damage proc remains fixed in its benefit.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
at that point there could be countless players applying the effect(I have ah and the pvp one on all my top tier toons where i could fit them) but it doesn't stack it only refreshes
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It is never safe to assume what may or may not be slotted by your -mates; better safe than sorry.
Being that its a low probability proc; multiples help (but not ensure) gap reduction in -res coverage (especially if other players are slotting it).
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Since the proc doesn't stack, there are definitely diminishing returns on slotting a bunch of them. One in every attack is, IMO, probably too much. I prefer 1-2 for the whole build. However, this really depends more on how often you use the power it's slotted in, and only indirectly on how many of them you slot, so if you have one in a very fast power like Gambler's Cut, you will gain much less benefit from additional procs that somebody else with a single proc in Disembowel.
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But you are also more likely to gain reduced benefit from the proc due to the non-stacking. If the goal is "better safe than sorry", you should use a damage proc, since it always does its full damage, and will never be rendered irrelevant by what your teammates do. Whether the increased damage outweighs the increased odds of stacking problems will depend heavily on the team.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I understand that; what I'm referring to is that the more -mates you have, the more utility a single AH proc can provide. You're more likely to hit (or even surpass) that '360' marker as your team/league size increases; while a damage proc remains fixed in its benefit.
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As with many math questions, the answer to the OP is probably one of two terrifyingly large numbers : Infinite, or 2.
If you want to have as close to permanent uptime as possible under all conditions, the correct solution is to slot it in each power that can accept it. I'm tired and don't feel like doing the math, but I suspect with AH-slotted ~4-8s rech powers in your chain, you'll beat 80% uptime with two procs and 90% with three, and each additional proc slotted will give you another fractional bit of uptime (up to whatever the number of powers in any given chain -- ST, AoE, or utility) is.
However, you'll get the greatest DPS increase with the first one. I think. Again, this is situational and I have an allergy to making my own spreadsheets, but I'm pretty sure uh 20% w/ 10s uptime on a power you use twice in 10s... hm. Okay, so actually it's probably kind of iffy whether 1 or 2 such powers is the best answer (of course if you're using the power more than twice in 10s it starts to really converge on 1). Three is pretty much right out, though. And the other benefit to sticking with just 1 is that if everyone on your team does this, you'll have a pretty fantastic uptime without much wasted opportunity.
So assuming all that's the case -- you have a power you're using 2-4 times per 10s that accepts the proc -- 1 is probably the best answer. If you're using the power less often than that, a higher number is better for now (although in a realistic sense you'd probably get more mileage out of just +damage or +rech in slower powers), but once the PPM change goes in as long as the power's being activated at least once per 10s window 1 is probably still a good number.
If someone wants to come along with real math and disprove me, I'd welcome it, since I'm interested in the answer myself. But I'm confident this is in the ballpark.
Possibly the biggest issue with this proc is that everybody with a -def power feels the urge to take it due to how rare and how powerful -res is. I tried making a Radiation Blast set user once and I honestly decided 'to hell with it' and never took the proc because it honeslty didn't seem worth it. Once you factor in the proc chance, and how useful many tier 6 bonuses on IO sets are (+2.5 ranged defense on thunderstrike for example) It makes it difficult to find a spot for the proc in single target attacks. Now, AoEs and abiltiies such as Sleet (Support abilities) are an entirely different matter. I suggest Atleast 1 in abilities such as Neutron Bomb and nearly every trick arrow set. This is because these 'attacks' aren't attacks at all and are support abilities where the only thing you hope to gain from them is just that 'support' where the proc acts like a pseudo 'critical hit' type effect.
I've always found the proc to be nice but underwhelming. Don't feel discouraged by not having it in every attack. It isn't as benficial as it appears to be.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Proc changes will be based off of slotted recharge in i24, not actual recharge. Most powers will see an increased proc rate compared to the random chance procs.
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Originally Posted by Tsuji
I'd probably put them in as many attacks as I could. When everything is made PPM, and PPM is changed to work on your actual recharge and not your base recharge, you will almost certainly want as many as you can get
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I'm not off-the-top-of-my-head familiar with the PPM math, but here's a breakdown using the old, and soon-to-be-defunct system (and assuming I'm remembering correctly):|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
If you want to have as close to permanent uptime as possible under all conditions, the correct solution is to slot it in each power that can accept it. I'm tired and don't feel like doing the math, but I suspect with AH-slotted ~4-8s rech powers in your chain, you'll beat 80% uptime with two procs and 90% with three, and each additional proc slotted will give you another fractional bit of uptime (up to whatever the number of powers in any given chain -- ST, AoE, or utility) is.
However, you'll get the greatest DPS increase with the first one. I think. Again, this is situational and I have an allergy to making my own spreadsheets, but I'm pretty sure uh 20% w/ 10s uptime on a power you use twice in 10s... hm. Okay, so actually it's probably kind of iffy whether 1 or 2 such powers is the best answer (of course if you're using the power more than twice in 10s it starts to really converge on 1). Three is pretty much right out, though. And the other benefit to sticking with just 1 is that if everyone on your team does this, you'll have a pretty fantastic uptime without much wasted opportunity. |
If you have one proc check per ten second period, then you'll have 20% uptime, or 4% over-time RES. (Duh; the pre-PPM proc has a 20% chance to fire, and if you're spacing each check over a 10-second period, then you shouldn't have any risk of overlap).
If you have two proc checks per 10 second period, then you'll have 10 / (10 + (4 * 5)) = 33.3% uptime, or 0.333 * 0.2 = 6.66% over-time RES.
If you have three proc checks per 10 second period, then you'll have 10 / (10 + (4 * 3.33)) = 42.8% uptime, or about 8.57% over-time RES debuff.
If you have four proc checks per 10 second period, then you'll have 10 / (10 + (4 * 2.5)) = 50% uptime, or about 10% over-time RES debuff.
If you have five proc checks per 10 second period, then you'll have 10 / (10 + (4 * 2)) = 55.5% uptime, or about 11.1% over-time RES debuff.
Etc, etc. Realistically, the best uptime you're going to get on the proc is about 71.4% (that's 10 proc checks per ten second period, or an attack rate of once per second), which corresponds to about 14.3% in over-time RES.
After the PPM changes go through, the calculation will become much more complicated; generally, the faster you can leverage the proc (the faster your cycle time on each relevant power), the less chance it will have to fire per proc check. In sum: I doubt very much that the numbers above are going to change in players' favor.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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It's not terribly complicated, actually. If you think in terms of the Stalker Hide Proc, it has a PPM of 4 (or 4 Procs Per Minute). Breaks down that the fundamental expectation was a power with a 15/s recharge would (upon activation) trigger the proc consistently every time it was used. They've made adjustments to modify this to work off the enhanced recharge over the base, so it's not exactly that simple anymore. Now it says "I have a 4PPM, your 15/s base attack now recharges in 4.5/s, I will proc at X%" Basically taking the chances to proc averaged against the recharge of the power it resides in, and giving you a percent return. For most procs this is an improvement in oppurutnity, but in the case of the Achilles' it becomes a detriment (in my own tests). In situations like the Heel, it'll be better served in longer-recharging attacks to insure its consistent use. Say, for Water Blast (as a good new set to mention), if Achilles' had 3PPM and Whirlpool recharged in 20/s, you'd have a (supposedly) 100% proc.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
After the PPM changes go through, the calculation will become much more complicated; generally, the faster you can leverage the proc (the faster your cycle time on each relevant power), the less chance it will have to fire per proc check. In sum: I doubt very much that the numbers above are going to change in players' favor.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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I think there's a 90% cap. Also, doesn't the calc change up a bit for AoEs?
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Originally Posted by John_Printemps
...if Achilles' had 3PPM and Whirlpool recharged in 20/s, you'd have a (supposedly) 100% proc.
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Alright, so I was a bit over-generous in my uptime estimates; I really wasn't properly thinking of the multiplication of probabilities. But the recommendation stands -- it's just not worth it to bother with getting more than a few activations per period.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
scary numbers
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(Although... 74% uptime at 1 check per second? I feel like the recasting behavior of the proc would result in very few periods of downtime... ah well, but it looks right. I just really would've expected more like a 1-(1/11) uptime soft ceiling on it.)
This thread is a great read for a boy like me, as Ive been recently tinkering with my Rad/Rad Corrupters build. I was getting a little obsessive about cramming a AH in every attack; to the detriment of some really great set bonuses.
Time to pump the breaks
and go back to Mids drawing board.
You can find me playing on Guardian and my favorite toons right now are:
Alistair Ywain | Timmy Terrific | Action Agent | Doctor Spectrum | Handsome Devil | Snow Daze | Major Turmoil
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Yeah, I read Synapse's big PPM thread a couple of weeks ago after a lengthy break from the game. I understand the change in broad strokes, but I've resolved not to bother figuring out the math until after the new mechanics go live for all procs.|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
It's not terribly complicated, actually. If you think in terms of the Stalker Hide Proc, it has a PPM of 4 (or 4 Procs Per Minute). Breaks down that the fundamental expectation was a power with a 15/s recharge would (upon activation) trigger the proc consistently every time it was used. They've made adjustments to modify this to work off the enhanced recharge over the base, so it's not exactly that simple anymore. Now it says "I have a 4PPM, your 15/s base attack now recharges in 4.5/s, I will proc at X%" Basically taking the chances to proc averaged against the recharge of the power it resides in, and giving you a percent return. For most procs this is an improvement in oppurutnity, but in the case of the Achilles' it becomes a detriment (in my own tests). In situations like the Heel, it'll be better served in longer-recharging attacks to insure its consistent use. Say, for Water Blast (as a good new set to mention), if Achilles' had 3PPM and Whirlpool recharged in 20/s, you'd have a (supposedly) 100% proc.
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The only component of the PPM thing that I don't find intuitive is the AoE-Factor modifier. For the purpose of this discussion, we could ignore the AoE factor (just arbitrarily limit ourselves to single-target attacks), but even then, we'd still have to figure out what the enhanced (not practical) cycle time of each slotted attack is, as opposed to simply assuming that the proc is checked X number of times over a 10 second period.
So long story short, you may be right that the new proc mechanics aren't all that much more complicated in principle, but they'd add enough extra wrinkles to my back-of-the-napkin numbers that I thought the disclaimer was worthwhile.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Which is why I stuck to word-based theory instead of numerical equations, as I'm also not 100% sure of what the final roll out will be |
Originally Posted by Obitus
So long story short, you may be right that the new proc mechanics aren't all that much more complicated in principle, but they'd add enough extra wrinkles to my back-of-the-napkin numbers that I thought the disclaimer was worthwhile.
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At the same time, they're not that scary! I also haven't the slightest clue what the AoE Calculation is, beyond a vague belief that it's weighing number of targets either as a modifier to the whole power and each foe it hits, or as a modifier on each individual foe and giving each a unique roll chance based on how many the power could hit. That's marginally obvious, though.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
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Heh, don't get me wrong; I'm glad for the reassurance. |
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Which is why I stuck to word-based theory instead of numerical equations, as I'm also not 100% sure of what the final roll out will be
At the same time, they're not that scary! I also haven't the slightest clue what the AoE Calculation is, beyond a vague belief that it's weighing number of targets either as a modifier to the whole power and each foe it hits, or as a modifier on each individual foe and giving each a unique roll chance based on how many the power could hit. That's marginally obvious, though. |
As I understand it, the AoE factor counts area, not targets. I also vaguely remember some commentary about the cone formula having been screwy; the number having been designed for degrees but the game having been set up to use radians (oops!).
Anyway, it sounds like it'll be a good change. Perhaps more complicated, but fairer to slower attackers. I've wondered pretty much since Issue 9 introduced slottable procs whether or not the developers would normalize proc rate.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Here's some math someone did for AoEs in the proc thread - note that AoEs are hit harder by the conversion to PPM, and the Achilles' Heel as a 20% rate will end up having similar numbers to this in your AoEs:
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Rain of Fire is a special case since it uses the 10 second "I'm in an auto power" rate as the recharge instead of the power's recharge, but in the regular AoEs the worst case is still better than 20% for a large AoE slotted at 100% recharge.|
Originally Posted by firespray
I decided to take a look and see how this change would affect the AoEs in my favorite set (Fire blast).
For a normal proc (20% chance or 3 PPM) we have the following. Fireball with 0% recharge enhancement = 39.5% chance to fire Fireball with 33% recharge enhancement = 30.3% chance to fire Fireball with 66% recharge enhancement = 24.7% chance to fire Fireball with 100% recharge enhancement = 20.9% chance to fire Fire Breath with 0% recharge enhancement = 62.4% chance to fire Fire Breath with 33% recharge enhancement = 49.1% chance to fire Fire Breath with 66% recharge enhancement = 41.1% chance to fire Fire Breath with 100% recharge enhancement = 35.7% chance to fire Rain of Fire with 0% recharge enhancement = 16.4% chance to fire Rain of Fire with 33% recharge enhancement = 12.3% chance to fire Rain of Fire with 66% recharge enhancement = 9.9% chance to fire Rain of Fire with 100% recharge enhancement = 8.2% chance to fire |
Flares and Neutrino Bolt are two powers that have a combined animation time and base recharge that will hurt their PPM rate compared to the random chances, but every other power will have an increased chance to fire.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Well it really depends on your attack chain. For example katanas top attack chain (without divine avalanche) is GC-SD-GC-GD so putting it in GC not only gives you twice chance but also you can use one of two big hitters right after it. But with current changes planned for procs and upcoming second ATO sets I think putting second ATO in GC (for scrappers anyway) and moving AH to SD would be more effective while having glads -res proc in GD.
Not to forget that AH's bonuses does not stack from same enhancement so if you put like 3 in previous example one in each GC GD and SD you will probably wasting more than %50 of procs and probably wasting enhacement space as well.
Speaking from a "maximum uptime" standpoint... How many Achilles Heel procs are too many? The current build I'm looking at could theoretically fit in 5: 3 in AoE's, 2 in ST attacks. If I'm strictly looking to keep the proc up on as many targets as possible, as much as possible... Would it be worth it? Or is it just a waste of slots (and inf) to go that far? Should I just have one each in a spammable AoE and ST?
On the same subject... Does anyone know how the proc works in pseudopet powers, Oil Slick Arrow specifically?
I appreciate any facts/opinions/thoughts on the matter, thanks!