With the snipe changes on test, do defenders do more single target damage than Peacebringers?

I was just looking at my Peacebringer and my time/energy defender and noticed that with the sniper changes on test, the difference in ST damage (without vigilance) is actually quite low. Does that mean that, without considering cosmic balance or vigilance, a number of defender secondaries outdamage Peacebringer primaries? I'm aware you can't have a permanent snipe without a kismet+tactics, but on a team it seems pretty reasonable to assume you'll have enough tohit for it to be permanent.

Just considering a ranged chain I can't really tell for sure. Obviously the defender blows a human form ranged chain out of the water, but in fact I can't tell for sure when considering a chain that incorporates the melee attacks (dwarf and human form) either. To me, it seems like this is a pretty huge problem, given that every defender has extremely powerful buffs or debuffs as a result of being a defender.

What happens when you use a higher damage primary? Is there a situation where a defender will end up doing more single damage sans buffs than a Peacebringer with three damage stacks of cosmic balance? Are there defenders that do more AoE damage than Peacebringers?

kin/fire defender a PB is gonna have a hard time beating that in st or aoe damage.

An interesting question. I will have to look at the defender damage at some point.

What is the activation time of the snipes with the requisite tohit? 1.884s arcana?

Every snipe is different, it ranges from .828 (according to mids) for assault rifle to 1.884 for fire. Energy is at 1.488

I wonder how the achilles procs becoming ppm will change things too. The only way I can really see a PB outdamaging a defender is with those, and if ppm makes them work less reliably...Ouch.

It'll be pretty close. Fire defenders be scary yo. Kin / Fire will be very productive... despite a low modifier they'll have lots and lots of personal +Dam.

I could see them outdoing peacebringers. The PB's only salvation might be its melee rotation. I might have to look at Achilles' Heel in something with a weighty recharge, like IS, as well as the fast ones to be sure it applies.

I cranked out a statistical analysis on expected Blaster performance in i24 based on the numbers we've received thus far... it has each Snipe's activation time. It does NOT! account for the new proc times, just went with the old ones. It's over in the Blaster forum.

tldr PB's are doomed? I guess we have to cry for more relative buffs. Oh well, at least we're used to it.

Is this place full of simpletons or what? The changes to any other AT do not make the PB any less effective than it was before the changes.

This is the same kind of silliness people were bringing up about scrappers when Stalkers got a buff.

If the PB needs changes those needs stand alone on their own merit and don't have a damm thing to do with any other AT getting buffed.

A) I don't think this change will make defenders outdamage PB's except in cases where they could significantly boost their own damage, which was already the case.

B) Comparing Defenders to PB's is pretty useless as they serve completely different roles. It is much more worthwhile to compare PB's to Tanks and Brutes.

That is one perspective.

Here's another viewpoint.

You are virtually indestructible, do tons of burst and sustained AOE damage, and have an OK-to-reasonable single target chain. I'd put us above tanks, below blasters, scrappers, and stalkers in single-target damage, and about equal to corruptor primaries. We're also behind some VEAT builds, but not dramatically so (the Crabstermind is what comes to mind there). If any one set that didn't out DPS us before is going to do so now, it's going to be /Fire Dominators on a team that gives them that elusive 22% To Hit.

I'm a proponent of going through the PB and making "useless" abilities better, such as Glinting Eye Blast, Proton Scatter, Luminous Detonation, Glowing Touch, all three shields (they all need love), Bright Nova single-target attacks, Pulsar, and Group Energy Flight. That's a lot of abilities that I think are pretty bad! I'm also a proponent of looking at certain aspects of the AT, such as the way that Cosmic Balance is calculated (too good early, blocks character growth late) and finding a better core mechanic to the PB to allow it to have an identity. I mean, I'm an advocate for changing all that...

... but in no way do I think a Peacebringer is a "bad" class or not a competitive one. A lot of that is our sheer survivability. After all, I simply endure Marauder's Nova Fist and laugh off most things that are thrown at me in the early-mid Trials as far as a DPS class (I did have to get out of Tyrant's lightning). I've even tanked the Avatar of the Hamidon by swapping to Dwarf every now and then to taunt... but I've also pulled aggro off of a tank in a BAF by sheer human form DPS, too.

One large thing to consider when talking about Defender or Dominator DPS is that they're rarely doing only DPS. Most Defenders have to maintain buffs, debuffs, activate click support powers, that sort of thing. As a PB, my on-target uptime is near 100%, only off for self healing or reactivating Light Form, whereas the Defender is rarely on target more than 80%. Dominators have the same issue: maintaining controls is very important to them at most times (single-target slugfests against enemies all but immune to CC might be one of those times) so they can't just fire away with a perfectly tuned DPS rotation like we can.

TL;DR: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM !

Defenders do not have comparable survival to pb's. In fact fully tuned up pb's have very good survival by even tank standards. Granite tank? No, but just about anything else.

I will need to see some max defender dps times to compare st damage (excluding kin). I seriously doubt they are beating pbs.

Defenders are obviously the force multipliers and there are several things still wonky for pbs as rakeeb mentioned, but I do not think this comparison is valid or doomworthy.

That's a slippery slope my friend. "The brute will survive most things a tank will, play them and get more damage. The scrappers will survive most things a brute will..." The line of what is 'good enough' survival is dependant on the person. For me, there are things that defender build will not survive that my pb will, and I want to survive those things while still putting out the pb's level of damage. This is also why I cant get behind doms often: they crank out damage but their survival tools of control dont work well enough against things I want to survive (multiple AV's, GM's).

You would just need to do max survival analyses for the two. (The responsible for the team thing-- you should know by now teammates falling doesnt bother me :P)

As far as the doms go, I just end up skipping most of the primary, at which point I feel I'd rather have an armor set or buffs/more damage. That's just me though.

Its really up in the air as far as pve go though.. fighting a bunch of minions couple of lt. and a boss i would rather go fender.. it would be around the same survival rate with pb but use of energy and quickness of the kill will be easier on defender.

but against a eb .. or av.. or even a bunch of bosses i would choose a pb anyday.

alot more hp. tanker lvl resistance. would allow the take of alpha hits... from a strong oppenant..

when it all comes down to it.. the comparison between pbs and defenders is the same as pbs and ws.