Tanks vs Brutes
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-07-30 23:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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THAT is the strawman. It doesn't matter if someone contributes NOTHING to the team, so long as the objective is achieved and everyone is having fun.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
That's pretty much a straw man. The real problem is that content where a Tanker's advantage in tanking actually results in better performance for the team is vanishingly rare, while content where a Brute's advantage in dealing damage while tanking matters, albeit in many teams not very much, almost all the time.
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If your motivation for playing is "I want to be the person who makes the biggest contribution to an end game raid" then you choose your AT appropriately.
BUT THAT IS FAR FROM WHAT EVERYONE WANTS FROM THE GAME.
I like the low level game. I like soloing. I like small teams. I don't like raiding. I like watching hoards of enemies throw themselves at me and bounce off. I'm happy to defend weaker allies if they need it, but that's not my reason for existing. I like Tankers, but I'm indifferent to tanking.
CoH has never claimed that all ATs are equally good at all jobs. If you go back to the original manual, it suggests that certain ATs are better for grouping, and others are better for solo. The same goes for end game raids. All ATs are not equal, and they aren't intended to be.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Basically sums up my reason for playing. and building tanks. and if it's warpped up into one package- "because that is what I find enjoyment in."
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I like the low level game. I like soloing. I like small teams. I don't like raiding. I like Tankers, but I'm indifferent to tanking. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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Thank you, I have tried about 3-4 examples in this thread and the last one...that should be laymen enough for anyone to understand!
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
If you can't understand how sitting at or near the 90% hardcap for res for a majority of damage types in the game backed with some layered defense and a near 1000 point heal every 12 seconds... well then, I question your defintion of the phrase? Put simply, I can't remember the last time my Fire Tank died where as my brute can still run into trouble on a regular basis.
And sorry to say, your point is moot because unless you are a permadom locking down the spawn pre alpha? Things are going to attack you. Making things dead faster is better.... buuuuut say it takes my brute 30 seconds to kill a full spawn that puts out 10,000 points of S/L damage over that time and a tank kills the same spawn in 60 seconds. My brute at 69% res to S/L takes 3,100 points of damage, my Fire tank takes 2,000 points of damage (90% res - 1000 pts x 2 30 sec intervals). Higher damage is a form of mitigation, but even assuming the brute puts out twice as much damage the tank comes out ahead from a survivability standpoint while doing less damage. |
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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I like teams small, large, and raiding, and I find actual tanking to be fun when its possible, but, yeah, pretty much this.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I like the low level game. I like soloing. I like small teams. I don't like raiding. I like watching hoards of enemies throw themselves at me and bounce off. I'm happy to defend weaker allies if they need it, but that's not my reason for existing. I like Tankers, but I'm indifferent to tanking.
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My Elec/TW just dinged 50. The rest of his auction bids fill out and its party time.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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I don't believe anyone disputes that unbuffed there is a reasonable balance between Brutes and Tanks; the issues arise when buffs come into play.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
If you can't understand how sitting at or near the 90% hardcap for res for a majority of damage types in the game backed with some layered defense and a near 1000 point heal every 12 seconds... well then, I question your defintion of the phrase? Put simply, I can't remember the last time my Fire Tank died where as my brute can still run into trouble on a regular basis.
And sorry to say, your point is moot because unless you are a permadom locking down the spawn pre alpha? Things are going to attack you. Making things dead faster is better.... buuuuut say it takes my brute 30 seconds to kill a full spawn that puts out 10,000 points of S/L damage over that time and a tank kills the same spawn in 60 seconds. My brute at 69% res to S/L takes 3,100 points of damage, my Fire tank takes 2,000 points of damage (90% res - 1000 pts x 2 30 sec intervals). Higher damage is a form of mitigation, but even assuming the brute puts out twice as much damage the tank comes out ahead from a survivability standpoint while doing less damage. |
On a team the Brute can hit the same resistance cap as the Tank while dealing considerably more damage, leaving only the HP difference.
The Tank with the same buffs would deal far less damage due to the lower damage cap.
Even solo the Brute will outperform the Tank simply by using inspirations.
Using the Brute ATO proc it's possible to achieve between 80% - 100% fury, easily out damaging the Tank.
The shortfall in survivability can be made up using inspiration, allowing the Brute to again cap resistance/defence.
Due to the higher rate of defeating mobs, the Brute will have greater access to inspirations and thus survivability based around these.
The Tank will also haver access to inspiarations but wil find his damage restricted by the low damage cap.
IMO there needs to be an adjustment in the damage and resistance caps to prevent this from happening.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Rare is the team that will have all the buffs on the brute all the time. |
Originally Posted by Psiphon
On a team the Brute can hit the same resistance cap as the Tank while dealing considerably more damage, leaving only the HP difference.
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| The Tank with the same buffs would deal far less damage due to the lower damage cap. |
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Even solo the Brute will outperform the Tank simply by using inspirations. Using the Brute ATO proc it's possible to achieve between 80% - 100% fury, easily out damaging the Tank. |
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The shortfall in survivability can be made up using inspiration, allowing the Brute to again cap resistance/defence. Due to the higher rate of defeating mobs, the Brute will have greater access to inspirations and thus survivability based around these. |
a.) Said brute is fumbling with right-clicking on their insp window which means they're not killing anything.
b.) Said brute already has macros at the ready, at which point you've already entered Hardcoreville or its farming villages and nobody's balancing our ATs around that.
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| The Tank will also haver access to inspiarations but wil find his damage restricted by the low damage cap. |
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| IMO there needs to be an adjustment in the damage and resistance caps to prevent this from happening. |
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying tanks > brutes. Brutes have much higher "potential" when it comes to what they can do because when buffs come into play they mostly have all the strenghts of tanks (90% Res cap, 3200 max HP vs. tanks only capping out at 300 more, aggro management) in addition to that sizable gap when it comes to damage caps.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
I don't believe anyone disputes that unbuffed there is a reasonable balance between Brutes and Tanks; the issues arise when buffs come into play.
On a team the Brute can hit the same resistance cap as the Tank while dealing considerably more damage, leaving only the HP difference. The Tank with the same buffs would deal far less damage due to the lower damage cap. Even solo the Brute will outperform the Tank simply by using inspirations. Using the Brute ATO proc it's possible to achieve between 80% - 100% fury, easily out damaging the Tank. The shortfall in survivability can be made up using inspiration, allowing the Brute to again cap resistance/defence. Due to the higher rate of defeating mobs, the Brute will have greater access to inspirations and thus survivability based around these. The Tank will also haver access to inspiarations but wil find his damage restricted by the low damage cap. IMO there needs to be an adjustment in the damage and resistance caps to prevent this from happening. |
If I'm teamed on my tank or brute? With buffs, debuffs, etc, both melt things fast. The same can be said for damage capped scrappers, corrupters, etc etc. Are brutes faster? Sure, but that doesn't make me enjoy my tank any less though as I've played a few MMO's over the past few years and nothing tanks like a CoH tank, its just massively satisfying to sit at the aggro cap and be essentially immortal.
A little anecdote that makes me chuckle when I see posts like "Nothing else matters unless you are a fire/rad or fire/kin". A year or so ago when alpha slot was the only incarnate we had, there was a 3 man ITF race held on Infinity where the fastest time with the least deaths took home a 3 billion influence prize. There were a dozen or so teams that entered and one of them being a group of IO'ed +1 Fire/Rad or Fire/Dark corrs. I forget which it was. Surprise, they won the race with a time something like 29 minutes 38 seconds with zero deaths. In second place a whopping nine seconds behind them also with zero deaths, a Elec Blast/Cold corr not level shifted, an Elec/SD brute alpha slotted but not shifted, and a +1 Plant/storm controller.
I'm sorry I'm more than a little confused by your post and the point that you're trying to make.
I'm saying that Brute damage and resistance caps are far too wide compared to the other melee AT's - they are able to output similar damage to a Scrapper while being able to mitigate as much damage as a Tank.
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This would also be true for a Scrapper or Stalker.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
That means either:
a.) Said brute is fumbling with right-clicking on their insp window which means they're not killing anything. b.) Said brute already has macros at the ready, at which point you've already entered Hardcoreville or its farming villages and nobody's balancing our ATs around that. |
Why is it OK for a Brute to do this and not a Scrapper or Stalker considering the relative damage caps of each?
Or even a Tank combining inspirations to make reds.
The point is that Brutes can - on SO's, while solo cap their resistance at Tanker levels (90%) while dealing Scrapper levels of damage.
I'm after justification as to why this is OK for them and no other melee AT?
If the Brute caps aren't relevent as they rarely come into play (as you imply), then the same holds true for other melee AT's and they should be raised for all melee AT's to match those of Brutes.
Or damage/resistance caps do matter and again they need to be adjusted on all AT's to give parity with Brutes.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Psiphon,
Which Brutes can cap their resistance solo on SOs? Maybe to one damage type, but they can hardly do that to many damage types like Tankers can. Not that I think that Brute resistance cap couldn't be lowered to 85%, but to say that Brutes (especially as a whole) can cap their resistances solo on SOs is just wrong. Unless you're counting in Tier 9s, which are hardly perma, especially on SOs.
Invulns: With Tough can get to 70.2% S/L Resistance, 23.4% to elements and energies
Fire: 52.65 to S/L, 35.1 to E/NE, over cap to Fire, 23.4 to Cold
Electric: 58.5 to S/L/F/C, over cap to Energy, 40.95 to Psy, 35.1 to Neg Energy
...etc. Basically, they can sometimes get to the cap against certain damage types only, but fighting anything that doesn't use that damage type they are definitely worse off than Tankers.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Yep - on SOs, Tankers are definitely tougher than Brutes. Significantly so. It's with high-end builds where they become hard to tell apart - but that's still not really because Brutes are as tough as Tankers (the HP difference and the Tanker ATO proc are a significant gap, even if we don't count any other AT differnces). It's because Brutes with IOs, Incarnates, etc are so tough that the value of being tougher, even a lot tougher in a strictly numerical sense, stops meaning very much.
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My apologies if I didn't make it clear but the discussion quoted was based around the liberal use of inspirations to make up the difference between Brute and Tank survivability.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Psiphon,
Which Brutes can cap their resistance solo on SOs? Maybe to one damage type, but they can hardly do that to many damage types like Tankers can. Not that I think that Brute resistance cap couldn't be lowered to 85%, but to say that Brutes (especially as a whole) can cap their resistances solo on SOs is just wrong. Unless you're counting in Tier 9s, which are hardly perma, especially on SOs. Invulns: With Tough can get to 70.2% S/L Resistance, 23.4% to elements and energies Fire: 52.65 to S/L, 35.1 to E/NE, over cap to Fire, 23.4 to Cold Electric: 58.5 to S/L/F/C, over cap to Energy, 40.95 to Psy, 35.1 to Neg Energy ...etc. Basically, they can sometimes get to the cap against certain damage types only, but fighting anything that doesn't use that damage type they are definitely worse off than Tankers. |
For example if comparing Fire/SS Tank and a SS/Fire Brute. The Brute would be able to use Orange inspirations to match Tanker resistance while dealing way more damage. Due to the higher mob defeat rate the Brute would also have access to twice as many inspirations over te same period of time; purples and greens making up for any HP shortfall.
The Tank due to it's lower damage cap would hit a wall that it's unable to pass irrespective of how many inspirations are used.
A high damage Scrapper or Stalker would have a similar issue regarding resistance, again due to the lower cap.
All of this can happen on SO's. Brute Farmers do it all the time, as such it can be performed on any x8 mission -although the mission would be harder as the mobs aren't cherry picked.
The argument is put forward that the 90% resistance cap on a Brute is rarely reached -farmers hit it all the time using orange inspirations.
The argument is put forward that Brutes run at and struggle to maintain 65% Fury -other forum threads quote 80-100% is the norm with the Brute proc.
If on SO's using inspirations a Brute is able to perform this then why not other Melee AT's?
The existing damage and resistance caps unfairly penalise all Melee AT's when compared to Brute's.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Let me phrase it this way then: How often do you actually see anyone chugging through insps to keep their brutes at the cap?
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
This would also be true for a Scrapper or Stalker.
Why is it OK for a Brute to do this and not a Scrapper or Stalker considering the relative damage caps of each? |
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Nobody eats that much pez...and tanks already do damage equal to a brute at about 10-15% fury...getting to the damage cap on these 2 is an absurd conversation...on SOs with inspirations...you'll be burning through a tray full at a time...you're bordering ludicrous here.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
My apologies if I didn't make it clear but the discussion quoted was based around the liberal use of inspirations to make up the difference between Brute and Tank survivability.
For example if comparing Fire/SS Tank and a SS/Fire Brute. The Brute would be able to use Orange inspirations to match Tanker resistance while dealing way more damage. Due to the higher mob defeat rate the Brute would also have access to twice as many inspirations over te same period of time; purples and greens making up for any HP shortfall. The Tank due to it's lower damage cap would hit a wall that it's unable to pass irrespective of how many inspirations are used. |
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A high damage Scrapper or Stalker would have a similar issue regarding resistance, again due to the lower cap. All of this can happen on SO's. Brute Farmers do it all the time, as such it can be performed on any x8 mission -although the mission would be harder as the mobs aren't cherry picked. |
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The argument is put forward that the 90% resistance cap on a Brute is rarely reached -farmers hit it all the time using orange inspirations. The argument is put forward that Brutes run at and struggle to maintain 65% Fury -other forum threads quote 80-100% is the norm with the Brute proc. If on SO's using inspirations a Brute is able to perform this then why not other Melee AT's? The existing damage and resistance caps unfairly penalise all Melee AT's when compared to Brute's. |
My observation in game is that I can maintain somewhere around 70-80% Fury sustained in normal play...farming you can get higher...but that's not normal play.
Tanks can do all that too...a Tank at the damage cap is like a Brute @15% Fury with 100% enhancement in the power and 300% damage buff...where's the issue?
Scrappers can't do it, but no one deals damage like stalkers and scrappers...
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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That's not the point - they have the option of hitting 90% resists when required, Scrappers and Stalkers do not even though their damage caps are similar.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Let me phrase it this way then: How often do you actually see anyone chugging through insps to keep their brutes at the cap?
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Brutes have extra health and an extra 15% resists, why?
My comments are based on the fact that Brutes in actual gameplay (in my experience) outdamage Scrappers and Stalkers in many circumstance.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Fair enough , my bad on the need to use inspirations hit the resist cap but all this does is solidify my point - Brute is capable of hitting the resist cap without inspirations while dealing scrapper level damage.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
No, they pick farms that use a damage type their resists are already capped to...hence FA toons do fire farms...nobody eats 5 oranges and 20 reds before they run a farm...who do base this on? Brute farmers DO NOT eat pez to cap resists, they run FA and do fire farms...anyone who lied to you and said otherwise is talking out a hole other than their mouth. My observation in game is that I can maintain somewhere around 70-80% Fury sustained in normal play...farming you can get higher...but that's not normal play. Tanks can do all that too...a Tank at the damage cap is like a Brute @15% Fury with 100% enhancement in the power and 300% damage buff...where's the issue? Scrappers can't do it, but no one deals damage like stalkers and scrappers... |
An FA Scrapper caps out at 75%, given the similar damage caps why should the Brute have such a large advantage and that's ignoring the HP difference?
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Well Scrappers have no need to chase Fury, and they start the fight with much more damage.
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Only if you consider farms to be a balancing point for some reason. There are vanishingly few real missions where a /FA or /Elec Brute won't face attacks against their non-capped resists. The only other sets that can reach 90% resist to *anything* without insps are Invuln (and only during Unstoppable) and Stone (and only against S/L, and Stone isn't winning many damage competitions).
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
Fair enough , my bad on the need to use inspirations hit the resist cap but all this does is solidify my point - Brute is capable of hitting the resist cap without inspirations while dealing scrapper level damage.
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True but is it worth:|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Well Scrappers have no need to chase Fury, and they start the fight with much more damage.
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+HP
15% resists
Taunt aura that a scrapper would cut his arm off for?
A brute gains a hell of a lot for the supposed disadvantage of Fury which is now a different beast to what it was.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Well if you're going to throw in Unstoppable then you should include Power Surge and with some set bonuses you can cap Psi on Electric Armor as well. At that point there are vanishingly few mobs where an Electric Armor Brute won't have capped resists.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Only if you consider farms to be a balancing point for some reason. There are vanishingly few real missions where a /FA or /Elec Brute won't face attacks against their non-capped resists. The only other sets that can reach 90% resist to *anything* without insps are Invuln (and only during Unstoppable) and Stone (and only against S/L, and Stone isn't winning many damage competitions).
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Of course, once we get to that level of absurdity you may have to start looking at Warshades funny, since they wander around capped (at 85%) to everything all the time once they get Eclipse and don't have a crash and can put out some fairly substantial damage on their own.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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So, here's a question nobody can answer to my satisfaction...
Why should tanks do more damage? They are WAI, how are they broken?
Why should scrappers have more survivability? They are WAI and do more sustained damage than anyone...
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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So that they'd both step on Brutes toes just as much as Brute's step on theirs?|
Originally Posted by planet_J
So, here's a question nobody can answer to my satisfaction...
Why should tanks do more damage? They are WAI, how are they broken? Why should scrappers have more survivability? They are WAI and do more sustained damage than anyone... |
Everyone knows Brutes can do just as much damage as scrappers, and can be just as survivable as Tanks.
Where have you been?
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Because my Brute can not walk into a group and guarantee his first hit will be a critical hit with a fairly good chance that if that first hit is an area attack it will hit critically. Moreover that first hit, even were it critical, would be of considerably smaller value than what my Stalker routinely puts outs. And on top of that, so long as I am willing to go three hits between usage, my Stalker's Assassin's Strike will most likely crit (and with recharge times being what they are, I am likely to be using two or three strikes between uses of the Assassin's Strike).|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
That's not the point - they have the option of hitting 90% resists when required, Scrappers and Stalkers do not even though their damage caps are similar.
Brutes have extra health and an extra 15% resists, why? |
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| My comments are based on the fact that Brutes in actual gameplay (in my experience) outdamage Scrappers and Stalkers in many circumstance. |
Under construction
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Personally, if it's in the game its a balance point.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Only if you consider farms to be a balancing point for some reason. There are vanishingly few real missions where a /FA or /Elec Brute won't face attacks against their non-capped resists. The only other sets that can reach 90% resist to *anything* without insps are Invuln (and only during Unstoppable) and Stone (and only against S/L, and Stone isn't winning many damage competitions).
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I think that your missing where I'm coming from though.
If the high (relative to other melee ATs) caps are a balance point then caps for all melee ATs need to be looked at and brought into line.
If caps are irrelevent then there is no reason for all melee AT caps not to be adjusted inline with Brutes - just because it's the current positon it doesn't make it right.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Again, I make the point: It doesn't matter how survivable you are if the things attacking you *aren't* attacking you. It's the same argument I make for Controllers not necessarily "needing" to softcap anything. If they're mezzed (or in the Brute's case, defeated), they aren't attacking and your resistance/defense/regen/healing doesn't matter.
The faster and more efficiently you defeat your enemies, the less survivability you need.
And sorry to say, your point is moot because unless you are a permadom locking down the spawn pre alpha? Things are going to attack you. Making things dead faster is better.... buuuuut say it takes my brute 30 seconds to kill a full spawn that puts out 10,000 points of S/L damage over that time and a tank kills the same spawn in 60 seconds.
My brute at 69% res to S/L takes 3,100 points of damage, my Fire tank takes 2,000 points of damage (90% res - 1000 pts x 2 30 sec intervals). Higher damage is a form of mitigation, but even assuming the brute puts out twice as much damage the tank comes out ahead from a survivability standpoint while doing less damage.