Tanks vs Brutes

SS should have LESS of a gap between its performance for Tankers and Brutes, because Rage somewhat dilutes the effect of Fury (and this does match my own experience with the set).
Tanker Foot Stomp (95% damage enhancement + Rage): 63.17*(1+.95+.8)=173.7
Brute Foot Stomp (95% damage enhancement + Rage + 80 Fury): 59.22*(1+.95+.8+1.6)=257.6
Brute Foot Stomp does 48% more.
By comparison, Brute Whirling Smash does 71% more than Tanker Whirling Smash:
Tanker Whirling Smash (95% damage enhancement): 60.89*(1+.95)=118.7
Brute Whirling Smash (95% damage enhancement + 80 Fury): 57.08*(1+.95+1.6)=202.6

...which isn't to say that TW is bad on tanks, nor that SS is bad on brutes, or any such thing. And of course that exact ratio will not hold for different amounts of Fury, or if you use double Rage instead of single, or if you include Bruising, or et cetera. But the damage gap between Brute SS and Tanker SS is smaller than pretty much any other set they share, until the Tanker's lower damage cap comes into play (which, granted, it does for SS much more easily than other sets).

Well, I mean, TW really does do a ton of damage compared to other sets, but that's not a Tanker-specific feature

so then. with the electric armor and energy melee combo.

on the tank, does the electric armor drain more end than the brute version, since it's primary and does say that stuns on brute energy melee last longer than the tank version? Or is it the same secondary effects or both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

No, 25% more health means you can take 25% more damage, no matter how much defense you have. If both characters build for the regular softcap, the Tanker's higher defensive numbers don't confer so much advantage (you have more wiggle room in the build, since you need far fewer set bonuses, but both characters will be softcapped). However, a SD/ tanker can plausibly choose to build to or near the Incarnate softcap instead, while a /SD brute has a much harder time doing that. A SD/ tanker also gets better DDR, and better resists (potentially MUCH better once you count their ATO proc).

The question isn't whether the Tanker really is significantly tougher. Tankers are indeed significantly tougher. No contest. It's just a question of whether you value the ability to stay alive in the (not very common) situations where a Brute isn't tough enough above or below the ability to deal more damage in every situation.

Okay,so they're not going to be slotted/setted the same way.

Those "other bonuses the Brute won't be able to" aren't going to make up for the wildly huge gap in the time it takes to kill the spawn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

Guess I need to work on my SS/Dark brute to see this difference... since the Dark/SS tank I just finished up didn't seem to take all that long finishing things off (nor does my Fire/SS - all versions of my forum-namesake.) Might be a SS specific thing, though, as mentioned upthread.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I would imagine it's a fact, because I don't believe the Tank can get enough damage bonuses to make up the difference.

If that's not so, I'd love to see it. Tank's the only hero AT I have yet to get to 50, because I still operate under "Why not make a brute instead? It's more fun because it actually kills things."

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

I think that people who say that Tankers are slower to kill really haven't gotten them up to the higher levels. Because in the lower levels, it CAN be that they're slower to kill, because most Tanker players take DEFENSIVE powers more than OFFENSIVE, meaning that they have fewer attacks in the lower levels. That doesn't mean it's a Tanker issue, but how we get the powers means that killing speed may come later in the build. But at high levels, I really don't feel that Tankers kill all that slowly.

I will agree that the "rate at which I kill things" feeling is subjective. 30 seconds to defeat a spawn may be quick for some, agonizingly slow for others.

However, that said, my original opinion remains. Why (assuming identical sets) would I play a Tanker over a Brute, when for all intents and purposes the Brute can be built to be almost as survivable, when their killing speed advantage makes up for the difference in survivability?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

Ninja Run is the lowbie tanker's best friend. No powers wasted on pure travel powers (CJ is basically free defense).

One of the things I like about tankers is that I don't have to monkey around with sets to have a durable tanker. To me, brutes are like scrappers with a painful boot up period when you don't set them out. With a team a SO brute can approach tanker levels but then you need the right support.

SR, for example, softcaps with CJ+Steadfast as the only non-SR defense sources. One pool power and one IO versus the piles of Mako's, ToD, Aegis, weave, etc. etc. needed to do so on a brute. Some people like the AH and IO minigames. Most times, I don't, so for me tankers get the edge over brutes if there's no other deciding factor.

This is one of many reasons why bringing IOs into these discussions is fruitless (well unless you are willing to go all the way and analyzie the extreme complexity.)

If you bring capped SL via IO, you have to account for the cost on each AT to ge tthere.

If you bring that the saved cost on one AT can be invested on damage, you also have to go ahead and show exactly what bonuses you can get that will make a difference.

But lets attempt to entertain the idea slightly: the best approach to boost damage is more recharge. This will bring Rage to longer windows of double-stacking, but also increases the uptime of Rage's -DMG crash.

I am not going to spend the time doing this but you guys (since you are the ones bringing IOs) can create some builds that soft cap def and then use the saved effort the tanker version uses to boost recharge and damage.

Lets go back a minute to pure base. At 60% fury (and a brute soloing and facing heavy spawns like this will be way over that) is at an average of 2.36 base damage. A tanker will be at 1.56. That's about 50% damage advantage for the brute. This means in the time a brute takes 3 spawns, the tanker takes 2. In the time the brute takes 15, the tanker only done 10, etc etc.

So, how can we boost this so that the tanker with the same sets can catch up with the brute?