Tanks vs Brutes

But only for the games you personally balance.

We can nerf brutes.

No one is saying that Tanks should outdamage Brutes, they shouldn't. What they should do though is have the same opportunity as Brutes. When needed a Brute can use inspirations to mitigate 90% of damage, a Tank can't use inspirations to pass beyond it's current cap which is proportionately lower than it should be relative to a Brute.

Also a Scrapper or Stalker can't mitigate beyond 75% damage if needed, a Brute can yet the damage differential is minimal.

What scapper wants to draw that type of attention?

Really?

My Stalker can pretty handily dispose of a spawn of yellow to orange cons by popping Build Up from a Hidden state, using Throw Spines, moving quickly to the center of the group and using Spine Burst, then taking a step back and using Ripper (with the benefit that now Assassin Strike is likely to crit and drop any target I choose).

My Brute spends considerable more attacks to get to the same end. To be fair, he can also deal with a larger or higher con group. However at that point you're seeking groups for your playstyle and not dealing with content as the game throws it at you.

I do see the occassional pill poppers in my time playing the game, but most people I know aren't gobbling in the way I read the above to suggest.

Your comparing Apples to Oranges - what a Stalker is the master of to what the Brute is weakest at.

If you like comparisons:
An SS/Fire Brute verses an ELM/ElA Stalker over a standard mission. ElM is probably the most AoE Stalker there is and would still finish the mission way after the Brute.

This is a more realistic comparison of in game play.

I haven't got an SS/Fire Brute but I've seen them in action and I've not got an At to match it for damage including an ElM Stalker.

The question was asked "if you consider" so I gave my opinion, that's all I can do.

I'm not calling for a nerf, I'm just asking for it to be looked at because in my opinion Brute's caps are too wide compared to other melee AT's - I'm simply after parity.

You were the one to off the comparison and ask why it was fair. All I did was look at the packages in detail.

I have an ElM Stalker. ElM/Nin in fact. I would take my Spines/ElA Stalker over it. . .she's sturdier, recovers endurances as needed, is immune to energy attacks and endurance drains, and gets a boost which allows here to not too far from perma-Hasten on just SOs (depends on what you consider far I admit). She churns out AE damage consistently like nobody's business.

Not saying I agree, but go on. . . .

At best you might be arguing that SS or perhaps just SS/FA performs incredibly well. Were you really trying to make a comparison between the two ATs you would choose sets they have in common. . .say DM/ElA.

Well Werner is rerolling his Kat/DA to a Brute for the taunt aura, judging by one of his posts.


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Your missing my point, I'm talking about the level of the Brute caps across the board.
If you're in a mission with your Stalker and the c*** hits the fan (an ambush or nearby spawn gets aggroed). You're up against it and start popping inspirations, even if you had five or six oranges you would hit the 75% resist cap. A Brute on the other hand would be able to mitigate an extra 15% damage - possibly the difference between survival and a trip to the hospital.
Even if it's just the odd spike damage or "oh crap" time it has options that Scrappers and Stalkers don't.

How often that happens is not the point, the option is there.

I fail to see how saying, "Brute's caps are twoo wide compared to other melee AT's," can be read as anything other than calling for a nerf.

Well, there's your problem. 'When required' is not always 'when available'. As I've been trying to say, support and inspirations are not always there when you need them.

Because they were designed as CoV's counterpart to tankers.

wat

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

Lets not say DM as it's ST focused.

Lets say Claws/ElA if you want to go that route...


But again even if a Claws/ElA Stalker were to outdamage a Claws/ELA over the course of a mission, which is very debatable and I've no doubt would be negligable in regards to time: what does the Stalker give up for that:
A mass of HP and 15% damage resistance if required.

You didn't answer the question, you evaded it. I asked what SCRAPPER wanted the attention a taunt aura draws. Precious few in my experience because they are not designed to withstand it. Rerolling as a Brute means getting the taunt aura but also the tools to survive it presumably. However there are tradeoffs for this.

If there is an ambush in a mission then more likely than not my Stalker is Hidden and there you go. In any event my Stalker is immediately able to be laying out full damage without working Fury up. And yes, my reiestance cap is lower. That somewhat argues that go Defensive is a good idea since everyone caps in the same place. That aside (as my Stalker is Electrical), yes, I have lowers resistance caps because I have other benefits to my AT in terms of dealing out damage, not the least of which is a semi-ludicrous crit chance.

Of course its a point and a meaningful one. An event that happens rarely does not compare to a situation that happens all the time.

Which you can ony compare by considering how often such is required.

Which again is my point, you say "support and inspirations are not always there when you need them", yet if I said raise the Tanker damage cap to that of Brutes you would scream "over powered". The same rule applies to both though!!

Either caps are there to keep ATs within certain parameters or they are not!

You include inspirations and buffs or you don't!

If you include them then Brutes have an advantage and the caps need to be looked at!!

If you don't include them then bring other AT's in line and again look at the caps!!

Either way they need to be adjusted!!

Would he scream "over powered". . .what's your basis for that claim?

There is more at work than caps that determine how an AT handles.

I'm not disputing that Brutes should have a higher resistance cap in order to survive the additional incoming damage, it's how high the damage cap is, especially when it's claimed that it's OK to have it this high because it's never/rarely used.

You evade answering questions like your Stalker evades damage.


I disagree - advantages are advantages and options are options, the Brute has more than other melee AT's for not apparent reason other than "that's how it is at the moment".

Previous discussions on the forums around similar topics, if he won't then my apologies to him. But that is the general shout.

Agreed but it's the caps that are the main issue with melee AT's IMO in regards to performance.

That wasn't really a question. That was a statement essentially asserting that such a consideration was not meaningful.

Fair enough, but I did respond to it by asserting that "I did indeed think that it was a balancing point".
A simple confirmation of my stance on the discussion.

If the cap were 100,000% not even a team of full of Kinetics could get a Brute there. Would it be meaningful to complain that some other AT had an equally inaccessible but lower cap of 90,000%?

No, evasion would meaning not dealing with the situation presented, as you did. I dealt with it by noting that ambushes do not figure in the life of a Stalker (at least one who leaves Hide active) in the same way they do for other ATs.


You can disagree all you want. Reasonable people have pointed out the error in your thinking. Of course nobody can keep you from believing whatever erroneous thing you want, be that the Moon is made of green cheese or that frequency does not matter in making comparisons. I have the option to spend money on the lottery every week. That hardly means I am going to get richer sooner than someone who doesn't.

Historically, even if they agreed with you, the devs have preferred to change whether the offending farm IS in the game, rather than balance around it. Even the ones that have survived are, nevertheless, only a small part of the game's content.
Caps aren't irrelevant. But neither are they anywhere near AS relevant as these discussions tend to portray them. They are a balance point, but they are not the only balance point, and they are not even the most important balance point. Sure, Brutes can get more benefit from using a bunch of orange inspirations, but the inspiration tray is not so large that they can do this very regularly. But then, a Scrapper can get more benefit from using any number of red inspirations, whether they get to the cap or not. A Tanker can use inspirations to cap their resists too, and they can do it more often since they don't need as many oranges to get there.

The various caps are certainly something to be considered, but they do not tell the whole story. A decent argument can be made that Brutes step on Tanker toes too much (although my preferred fix would be for Tankers less like Brutes, not more), but the caps are only a small part of that discussion. If the Tanker damage cap went up to 500% and the Brute resist cap went down to 85%, Brutes would still be stepping on Tanker toes, because they'd still do more damage than Tankers and still be plenty tough for almost any plausible task.

You're dodging the question...why should tanks do any more damage...they perform their role as they were designed by the game designers to do. The fact that you don't like the role they were intended to play speaks more to the fact that you are not a tank player, than it says anything about tanks being broken or needing a buff...or something else needing a buff/nerf for that matter.

Brutes can theoretically run around capped to all resists, and theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff from a blade of grass...but that doesn't make it any more likely to happen. Nobody would bother trying, brutes are tough "enough", tanks are even tougher, you could argue superfluously so...but it doesn't change the role tanks were built specifically to serve and they serve it well. If you reduce brute resists caps, then an out of the box warshade with eclipse is now permanently tougher than any brute...period...at 85% resist cap, a warshade caps ALL RESISTS.

Brutes can theoretically do slightly more damage then scrappers...I've personally never had a brute that hit 100% Fury sustained and hit the damage cap...ever. Sustaining 100% Fury is nigh impossible and would likely be impossible with any less durability as you have to take a ton of damage to get there and dish a lot back. However, scrappers can do max damage from the first swing, and don't have to chase enemies and take damage to build up Fury. That's why they don't need a taunt aura, they can do max damage straight out of the box. Brutes have taunt auras because they have to chase Fury. They're designed differently...it is what it is. Scrappers need not be any tougher, they do just fine.

If you think brutes are so insane, then quit complaining and play them, if you don't like the playstyle...then stop complaining and leave it be. The devs have stated they are WAI, they are sitting where they are because the balance is in order. Trying to put a square peg in a round hole doesn't make you intelligent, or thinking outside of the box, or a balance wizard. Instead it makes you ignorant of the truths that this game was designed around by the people who designed it.

Those are:
(1) Tanks are most survivable and do the least damage
(2) Brutes are slightly less survivable and do more damage
(3) Scrappers do the most damage and survive well (with criticals and ATO procs it isn't a contest anymore)
(4) Stalkers are least survivable and have the most burst damage

Talking about toons running around hard capped out is a fools errand, and that argument will get you no more traction than any other fool who's tried to chase it over the last few years. Brutes are off the table, they are not up for a look, and this conversation is moot...beating a dead horse is getting old.


You are a fool if you really believe that...look at scrappers with ATO critical procs and it stops being a contest, plus the ATO2 proc that's coming for them will make a GAP...that's right GAP between them and brutes, and a significant one at that.

Look at pylon times, the best barometer we have to compare...Stalkers and scrappers ROUTINELY have lower times than brutes...so do Night Widows and quite a few Doms...

Should we nerf all those ATs so brutes can be equal?? Of course not, the game wasn't designed for all ATs to be created equal. It was designed for all ATs to fill a role, and currently, all of them do that...you may not like the role some of them fill, but it makes it no less true.

I and most of the Scrapper forum regulars.

Yep. I rerolled as a Brute mostly for the taunt aura. I don't think I've played my Scrapper since rerolling. I think I'm 43 right now. The taunt aura is a huge quality of life issue for me, plus since I'm not chasing runners, I believe that I can get through most missions as fast or faster than the equivalent Scrapper despite doing less damage on paper.

It wasn't an evasion. It was an example. I would LOVE to have simply had a taunt aura on my Scrapper. If they gave it to me, I'd switch back. Believe me, my Scrapper can survive the attention, and I'm hardly the only one. I rerolled as a Brute primarily out of frustration with runners.

Many Scrappers solo. Many scrappers have the survivability to handle a lot of attention. Many scrappers hate runners with a passion. Lack of taunt aura is a very common Scrapper forum complaint.

What I do NOT hear on the Scrapper forum are complaints about getting too much attention on the secondaries that DO have a taunt aura. Oh, I'm sure people have complained before, but I just don't see it. Perhaps it's a more common complaint outside of the forum. I don't talk to people in game, so I don't know.

That said, at least Scrappers have some choice in whether or not they have a taunt aura. As a dev, I'd probably leave it alone, even if I'd personally much rather all the Scrapper secondaries taunt.

Of course not. On the other hand, who could argue against raising their cap if they can't hit it? Either caps matter or they don't. If they don't matter, who cares if we raise or lower them? If they DO matter, then it's a legitimate point for a balance discussion.

All that said, I'm far from convinced that Scrappers, Brutes or Tankers are out of balance. My personal hatred of runners is not an argument that Brutes are better in some objective sense that calls for rebalancing. I don't mind balance discussions; I just don't have a strong feeling on this one, and if anything is done, I think the devs should tread lightly.