So I want to return but...
By
A Musing Mage,
Posted on: 2012-07-10 14:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
@Fista: While I was admittedly whiney at first, I don't see how trying to clarify my position was "continued whining and complaining" and basically being told that I was just a spoiled brat who wanted the whole game for free was "being politely explained to that this game is Freemium". Heck, someone in another topic linked to this one and said something akin to "And here's the latest example of a free player nerd raging that they can't have everything free."
Honestly, there's a lot of big names on these forums who I thought were pretty darn cool back in the day, but a lot of them seemed to have been turned into serious jerks after this game went free.
Edit: Not saying everyone was being a jerk, but some clearly were. [/edit]
@In general: So yeah, while I don't have a way to pitch this to any rednames (support ticket will likely get an automated response to the effect of "We received your feedback, but aren't going to read it and will tell you to use the forums instead"), but what about doing something like the old Reactivation Weekends to give either everyone or premium and VIP players free VIP access for a weekend? There's plenty of precedent for them and it'd be a good way to show "Hey, here's all this cool stuff! Have fun with it for a weekend and if you like it all you have to do is sub!" Non-subs would get to try stuff they may not have gotten to try before to see if they want to do it, VIPs would have more people to run their VIP-only content with for a weekend. Toss in 2XP too on top of it and you'd have a classic winner.
Heck, if they want to get really clever, they can take a page from Aion's book before it went F2P and give away freebies to VIPs over the weekend and a day or two after and make the latter freebies the really nice ones. So, everyone would get the weekend freebies, but they'd only get the nice ones after the event if they were subbed. Trust me on that, it works. You wouldn't believe how many people resubbed to Aion just to get an exclusive pet.
Oh, and yeah, it'll also address complaints, such as my own, about not being able to try out the game in it's full glory before deciding to resub or not. Yeah, it's not 24/7 free access, but that's not we, or at least I, want. Yeah, I'd have to wait for the Reactivation Weekend, but I was doing that just about every time I was unsubbed for a good while back then, so that wouldn't be anything new, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one waiting like that.
Reactivation + 2XP were awesome in the past with the worst complaints I saw being some people unable to make them. I can't see why they wouldn't be awesome still.
Would "sub for a month, if you don't like it, drop it again" have gone over any better?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Yes as while it's not the most helpful thing to say, it's at least not being a jerk.
Quote:
There was no clarification needed. You don't like what is being offered for free; i.e. a perfectly good game that runs lvl 1 to 50 like it does for every one else. It has plenty of missions to run. It's got a broad scope and a depth that only 8 years brings to a game. Oh... IT'S FOR FREE. No really. Free. It's an entire game that when it was release cost $50.00. Now? FREE. It's been stated by the devs the game still centers around the SO. Guess what? You get access to them for FREE.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
@Fista: While I was admittedly whiney at first, I don't see how trying to clarify my position was "continued whining and complaining" and basically being told that I was just a spoiled brat who wanted the whole game for free was "being politely explained to that this game is Freemium". Heck, someone in another topic linked to this one and said something akin to "And here's the latest example of a free player nerd raging that they can't have everything free."
Honestly, there's a lot of big names on these forums who I thought were pretty darn cool back in the day, but a lot of them seemed to have been turned into serious jerks after this game went free. Edit: Not saying everyone was being a jerk, but some clearly were. [/edit] @In general: So yeah, while I don't have a way to pitch this to any rednames (support ticket will likely get an automated response to the effect of "We received your feedback, but aren't going to read it and will tell you to use the forums instead"), but what about doing something like the old Reactivation Weekends to give either everyone or premium and VIP players free VIP access for a weekend? There's plenty of precedent for them and it'd be a good way to show "Hey, here's all this cool stuff! Have fun with it for a weekend and if you like it all you have to do is sub!" Non-subs would get to try stuff they may not have gotten to try before to see if they want to do it, VIPs would have more people to run their VIP-only content with for a weekend. Toss in 2XP too on top of it and you'd have a classic winner. Heck, if they want to get really clever, they can take a page from Aion's book before it went F2P and give away freebies to VIPs over the weekend and a day or two after and make the latter freebies the really nice ones. So, everyone would get the weekend freebies, but they'd only get the nice ones after the event if they were subbed. Trust me on that, it works. You wouldn't believe how many people resubbed to Aion just to get an exclusive pet. Oh, and yeah, it'll also address complaints, such as my own, about not being able to try out the game in it's full glory before deciding to resub or not. Yeah, it's not 24/7 free access, but that's not we, or at least I, want. Yeah, I'd have to wait for the Reactivation Weekend, but I was doing that just about every time I was unsubbed for a good while back then, so that wouldn't be anything new, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one waiting like that. Reactivation + 2XP were awesome in the past with the worst complaints I saw being some people unable to make them. I can't see why they wouldn't be awesome still. |
You know what. That used to cost $50.00 for both games and $15.00 a month to be able to play at all. Guess how much that game costs now. Go on. Guess. That's right IT'S FREE.
The game you quit two years ago is free. Man you are lucky. You want something special? Say IO's... Holy crap. $2.00 a month until you catch up on vet rewards and then you know what? IT's FREE.
What can you do. Well you can do a few things. Pay $2.00 a month to get the IO'S you think you desperately need. Pay $15.00 to get the whole magilla. Play for fee and enjoy the game.
The community is pretty helpful. Pleanty of people will team with you. Help you with any problems you might have. Trouble with an AV? I've never had problems getting any one to help. Stumped where to find a badge or mission enterance? The community is there for you. Like role playing? There is a whole server that's mostly about just that. It's GLT friendly. In short it's pretty awesome.
Heck I'll tell you what. I'll create a second account that is F2P on Victory and we'll go through it together. You and me. Heck every one come along. I do insist on Vic as I don't particularly care for the other servers. I'm weird that way. You want in? You wanna do this? Send me a pm. Well get 'er done.
However...If you're gonna take your ball and go home, take your ball and go home.
Something witty and profound
what does GLT in GLT friendy mean?
(let's see if any of this gets filtered)
Gay-Lesbian-Transgendered.
(Hellions.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Well, if we cant get enough support together. To get them to review the invention system access. At least can we get support together to get them to review having salvage and recipes drop. I do like to feel rewarded for my efforts.
And perhaps get support together to have them review reward merit NPC, I feel there is a lack of what you can get with them, even as a VIP.
Forbin_Project, you cant be more wrong. We are 2 completely different people.
I do feel pretty upset that I felt forced to rebuild my character, and or change the way I play the game (by alting out with other characters). Unless I start to pay. Which I do, have, and will do.
Please people do not throw out the whole "it's only 2 dollars joke" some of us have different situations in life. Please do not tell me just pay them because I totally do when I can. I enjoy the game. But recently after the change to freedom I realized, I enjoy it at an unhealthy level. Fun is addicting period. Yes, I take things to heart and get angered easily if you don't know by now.
Quote:
/unsigned|
Originally Posted by TClauss
Well, if we cant get enough support together. To get them to review the invention system access. At least can we get support together to get them to review having salvage and recipes drop. I do like to feel rewarded for my efforts.
And perhaps get support together to have them review reward merit NPC, I feel there is a lack of what you can get with them, even as a VIP. Forbin_Project, you cant be more wrong. We are 2 completely different people. I do feel pretty upset that I felt forced to rebuild my character, and or change the way I play the game (by alting out with other characters). Unless I start to pay. Which I do, have, and will do. Please people do not throw out the whole "it's only 2 dollars joke" some of us have different situations in life. Please do not tell me just pay them because I totally do when I can. I enjoy the game. But recently after the change to freedom I realized, I enjoy it at an unhealthy level. Fun is addicting period. Yes, I take things to heart and get angered easily if you don't know by now. |
i understand that you may feel your position is the only sensible one on the universe, but i disagree. In fact i would say your post somewhat contradicts itself in a number of ways. At the least i'd say your post's logic is howling in agony. Stop that.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
To you it may sound like I am contradicting myself, but there are a number of ways to play the game without actually playing. Such as the character creator, and just creating builds in Mids. Since the change to freedom I was forced to play differently, when im not VIP'ing. All of them fun.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
/unsigned
i understand that you may feel your position is the only sensible one on the universe, but i disagree. In fact i would say your post somewhat contradicts itself in a number of ways. At the least i'd say your post's logic is howling in agony. Stop that. |
Yes my posts are howls of agony.
You don't think some of the new free players will wonder hmmm what are these things that drop used for? Oh cool inventions. Oh oh really just a few bucks to try out inventions? Hmmm WOW sets rock! I'll VIP tyvm.
and
Hmmm reward merits? What can I use them for? Oh look a NPC! Ooooh Inventions! Costumes! Auras! Temp Powers! Whatever they wanna throw in there! *Gasp* a 1-day invention license, wow I can try it out for a short time before deciding to buy a 30 day one! *CHOKE* SETS ROCK! I'll VIP!
As an interesting side note, I was watching a couple of the vid casts they do at Massively and in one case the staff member who plays CoH mentioned she just resubscribed to reactivate her IOs because she felt like she was being a drag on her teammates recently. She did heap high praise on the water blast powerset. Thinks it looks better than similar abilities in those other two superhero MMOs.
In the other case a different staff member was going to show off a MA mission for an hour in her Twitch stream only to find out that a true F2P account has no MA access. She obviously played the game before, even showing off a previous MA mission but for some reason she wasn't using that account. I didn't watch the whole thing since this was going live when it was recorded and I can't watch someone flailing when the demo goes so, so wrong.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
If they don't have Invention access they won't get the drops for Inventions.|
Originally Posted by TClauss
You don't think some of the new free players will wonder hmmm what are these things that drop used for? Oh cool inventions. Oh oh really just a few bucks to try out inventions? Hmmm WOW sets rock! I'll VIP tyvm. |
So that argument doesn't hold water.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
It doesn't? Don't you think more would buy a license if they dropped? Seems like they aren't really using inventions as the hook to get free players to Sub/Spend money then are they? Wasnt that the carrot everyone was talking about?|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
If they don't have Invention access they won't get the drops for Inventions.
So that argument doesn't hold water. |
Plus there are a few sets that free players can (I think) slot ATO's and the event set. So my question is if the invention system is such a HUGE feature to make money. Why isn't it targeted at free players as well? When we all know that when they made it available to play for free. It was to attract new players, and compete to make more money with other free to play games.
It's like they just want returning players to feel pressured into buying them, because we knew about it and had characters already set up for it. I know it's only our choice to spend the money to do so. But free players don't even know about the system until they do their first TF, earn merits (if they can) then eventually wonder onto a merit NPC and see the recipes. Or go and check out a ww, and I'm sure can go by unnoticed. I'm not even sure if they can check out the market? Maybe it's just they can't do any transactions.
I've always considered set IOs to be a complex and nuanced feature that can take a while to learn. Hardly something someone peeking in at the game would pick up in the very short term.
For a F2P player the lack of Tell, most drops, no e-mail and tiny bank is their encouragement to spend money.
As for returning players the question comes down to how many would be willing to resubscribe Vs not if IOs were unlocked for everyone. Every player logged in is a cost. If not every player pays then the question is how many paying players are needed to support the ones playing for free.
Companies do not make a little bit a profit on every sale, they only make a profit after they sell enough to cover their costs, then the next item sold, after material and production costs, is pure profit. In the case of MMOs, players playing free aren't helping the company to cover their fix costs. The company hopes that some of those free players will be willing to pay something but if they don't they are simply a cost on the wrong side of the balance sheet.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
That just doesn't seem like much encouragement, I could of easily played without any of those. The only thing that is questionable (because I already have knowledge of them) is the drops.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I've always considered set IOs to be a complex and nuanced feature that can take a while to learn. Hardly something someone peeking in at the game would pick up in the very short term.
For a F2P player the lack of Tell, most drops, no e-mail and tiny bank is their encouragement to spend money. |
You're right it is very complex, but I'm also positive if they would at least drop for them. Once they say what extra bonus's they can get using them. It would be a great motivator. It does take time to learn them, that's also a kind of guarantee of play time.
Quote:
I have never understood people who lack the self-preservation skills to take every possible precaution to not have a public presentation implode. Like, say, rehearsing.
|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
As an interesting side note, I was watching a couple of the vid casts they do at Massively and in one case the staff member who plays CoH mentioned she just resubscribed to reactivate her IOs because she felt like she was being a drag on her teammates recently. She did heap high praise on the water blast powerset. Thinks it looks better than similar abilities in those other two superhero MMOs.
In the other case a different staff member was going to show off a MA mission for an hour in her Twitch stream only to find out that a true F2P account has no MA access. She obviously played the game before, even showing off a previous MA mission but for some reason she wasn't using that account. I didn't watch the whole thing since this was going live when it was recorded and I can't watch someone flailing when the demo goes so, so wrong. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
The OP seemed to me to indicate that they had all the relevant information and they weren't happy with it, and that only solutions that don't currently exist would be acceptable. In my experience with internet discussions, there aren't a lot of good places to go from that starting point. The best bet might be to throw one's hands up and walk away, but how often does that actually happen en masse?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Give people the relevant information and then simply ask them to make a choice if this is a game they want to stick with.
|
As for giving them some part of the fun to entice them to pay for the whole: there inevitably has to be a line drawn somewhere, a point where the "fun" is cut-off, and not everyone will be happy with it. Give everyone a free inch, and some will want free yards, others will want free miles, and that one guy will insist he should get a parsec (and one weirdo will ask for free metres, but the Imperials will shout him down). When you explain that they have to pay for more than an inch and they complain about how unfair that is, well, we arrive back at the best bet being to throw one's hands up and walk away and how unlikely that is to occur on the internet.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
If there is one thing I learned from gaming, nothing is ever set in stone.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
only solutions that don't currently exist
|
I'm sure a long time ago, some people thought. If only this game was free to play.
Quote:
Indeed. But one has to be willing to accept and adapt to the fact that things may not change, even if some day they might. Well, one doesn't *have* to, but the obstinate alternative can cast one in quite the petulant light.
|
Originally Posted by TClauss
If there is one thing I learned from gaming, nothing is ever set in stone.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Yes accept the fact they may not|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Indeed. But one has to be willing to accept and adapt to the fact that things may not change, even if some day they might. Well, one doesn't *have* to, but the obstinate alternative can cast one in quite the petulant light.
|
But everything always changes, especially the things we got
No matter how hard we try them to stop,
there is no way to turn back the clock.
To look forward is our only direction
and only at our own discretion.
Do not linger on your own reflections
instead, make some self corrections.
LoL Sorry I thought your post was enlightening, and I suddenly had that thought.
Quote:
Okay I'll accept that I was wrong and you are two different people, I just thought the posts sounded similar when I read them.|
Originally Posted by TClauss
Forbin_Project, you cant be more wrong. We are 2 completely different people.
|
Quote:
| Please people do not throw out the whole "it's only 2 dollars joke" some of us have different situations in life. |
If they can find ways to scrape $15 bucks together regularly, then anyone can get $5 bucks once a month.
Quote:
As a Tier 9 vet who could ignore most FTP limitations limited character slots were by far the biggest incentive to re-sub.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I've always considered set IOs to be a complex and nuanced feature that can take a while to learn. Hardly something someone peeking in at the game would pick up in the very short term.
For a F2P player the lack of Tell, most drops, no e-mail and tiny bank is their encouragement to spend money. |
Quote:
| The company hopes that some of those free players will be willing to pay something but if they don't they are simply a cost on the wrong side of the balance sheet. |
Being VIP has actually saved me money- the monthly stipend of market points gives me a reason to be patient instead of just saying "aw heck, I might as well buy it now, I know I'm going to eventually!"
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Conversely, before the game went FTP/hybrid/whatever, we didn't have people complaining about not getting enough stuff for free. And there has been *A LOT* of that.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Honestly, there's a lot of big names on these forums who I thought were pretty darn cool back in the day, but a lot of them seemed to have been turned into serious jerks after this game went free.
|
Some people come in with well thought out opinions about the pros and cons of the new system. Unfortunately, though, some people (not saying you) come in here wailing like banshees that they can't have everything they want and it gets tiresome.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Every player logged in is a cost. If not every player pays then the question is how many paying players are needed to support the ones playing for free.
Companies do not make a little bit a profit on every sale, they only make a profit after they sell enough to cover their costs, then the next item sold, after material and production costs, is pure profit. In the case of MMOs, players playing free aren't helping the company to cover their fix costs. The company hopes that some of those free players will be willing to pay something but if they don't they are simply a cost on the wrong side of the balance sheet. |
Even if they never pay NCSoft a cent, they still have VALUE to the game.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Well said. A lot of us also paid full price for the game, for years, before most of the currently gated stuff even existed. (Note: by "us," I don't mean to imply that I'm a "big name on the forums;" I'm just making a generalization about people who've been around for a long time.)|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Conversely, before the game went FTP/hybrid/whatever, we didn't have people complaining about not getting enough stuff for free. And there has been *A LOT* of that.
Some people come in with well thought out opinions about the pros and cons of the new system. Unfortunately, though, some people (not saying you) come in here wailing like banshees that they can't have everything they want and it gets tiresome. |
To put it another way, the free version of City of Heroes, today, is arguably a better game than the full priced version was for the first handful of years of its existence. The Premium version of the game (which costs a whopping $5, last I checked) is definitely better than the full priced version was for the first few years.
If long-time forum posters have developed a bit of an attitude in response to certain free players' insistence that the game isn't free enough, then those long-time forum posters can be forgiven. Personally, I get annoyed not as a long-time forum poster or even a long-time CoH player; I get annoyed as a working adult: the people at Paragon Studios are no less entitled to make a living than you or I am. If you truly believe that you have an idea that will improve the Freemium model, both for players (free and paid alike) and by extension, for the long-term health of Paragon's business, then that's great; fire away.
But please, don't argue -- don't even imply -- that the developers are morally wrong for requiring payment for their services. If you (generically "you") have a job, then just imagine having some random snot-nosed stranger burst into your office to demand free stuff every hour or so. Think about how long you'd be willing to do your job for free. Unless your name is Mother Teresa Jr, I'm guessing the answer to that question is somewhere between, "Not at all," and, "Maybe a week or two."
Or maybe you're independently wealthy, in which case there's no pressure on you to earn a paycheck, and so any job you undertake is purely a matter of amusement/self-improvement/satisfaction. If so, that's great, but waitasec; shouldn't you also have $2 a month to spend on a game?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Imagine for a moment, a fast food restaurant. This restaurant is a business (let's just get this out of the way), It's just like any other place. It's got some costs to cover no matter who walks in those doors. They have a very creative feature. Create your own (named) signature burger. For a time to get inside you had to be a member and pay a monthly cost.
Recently it's had a re-grand opening, they have dropped the cover charge. Now anyone can get inside for free, and anyone can create a signature burger for free.
An old customer, is in awe. "Wow I can get my signature burger for free!" he says as he rushes down to the shop in haste. When he gets there he see's the place is packed with customers. All enjoying their own different versions of their burgers, his mouth starts to water. After waiting in line, he goes to order his old super beef mega classic, which he has grown to love. The teller pauses for a moment and then says "I'm sorry sir since your burger was topped with lettuce cheese, and pickles you will have to pay $5" The old customer looks around at everyone enjoying their own free burgers, and says to the teller "But why, they all get their own free burger!?"
Now I just want to stop there. I'm saying this only because you can see how it may give someone a whole host of negative feelings and or reactions (or at least some confusion) about this place even if they loved it.
The teller replies "Yes sir those free burgers are limited to only the free toppings."
So the old time customer goes ahead and re-create his super beef mega classic with the free toppings. While eating it, he thinks to himself "hmmm It doesn't taste the same anymore" But hey he doesn't have to pay monthly and he can get a dumbed down version of his favorite burger for free. If he's got the money he can order his burger the way he likes it cheaper then before. Or even pay a monthly fee like before and get a wifi password. To surf while eating. So all in all it's win win. But there is still that initial, whoa wait a minute! It takes some time to get over the fact that yes if you want your old time burger you will have to pay.
So sorry guys if I have come off emotional, because yes I was and still kinda am. Which is why I said before I like this game at an unhealthy level now, because when I play I still get those feelings of man, I gotta dumb down my hero, and start to get all upset. So I stop playing get get out/away from it. It's something I have to deal with personally, its not paragon's fault. I agree they all need to eat too.
I'm sorry you guys yes I will point the finger now at the community. Whats the problem with it? Some would consider waving a carrot in front of a starving animal, animal cruelty. Well paragon I can be cruel too! There is still plenty of content to get people to spend their hard earned money (when they are earning it).
I remember why I never started to publicly discuss on forums, and other media. So I am gone...not that any of you give a flying fkkkkk.
That is all.
I recall a similar argument being made in another thread because the poster didn't think the Freedom Freebies were valuable enough.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...7&postcount=86
It's not about being "picky"; it's about being decent and fair and wise.
I wouldn't give a starving man something as harmful as starving or not enough to get a cheap meal at least, though I would rather feed him than give him money as that accomplishes the goal without opening it up to a scam by somebody who ends up begging up to a hundred thousand dollars a year or more.