So I want to return but...
Now that it serves me correctly, I remember that a lot of my resubs in the past coincided with reactivation weekend events. Whether you never unsubbed or not, you have to admit those were always awesome. If you were subbed, all your friends would show back up and could show them, first hand without any restrictions, just how awesome things were now than they used to be. If you weren't subbed, you can log in and play as if you had never left and see, quite clearly, whether the game was something to invest time and money into again. Combine this with the 20-day trials someone else mentioned and the invite backs giving 15 days free, pre-Freedom felt rather welcoming to returning players, as if the game was saying "Hey, welcome back! We're so glad to see you again, we hope you stay!"
Which, now that I think about it, is probably a big reason why Freedom feels so unwelcoming to a returning player unless they're high tiered on the rewards. There's none of the excitement of reactivation weekends, there's none of the freedom of being able to see all that is new, there's none of the "Hey, we want you back, so here, have this!" attitude that was so present pre-Freedom (2XP with reactivations, the trials, the half a month free, etc). Instead, it just feels like "Oh, it's you again. Here's some of your junk, try to have fun with it. If not, I'll sell you the rest of it."
Yeah, I hear the "but you had to sub to get anything" argument thrown around a lot. Yeah... no. Sure, unsubbed players didn't get to play the game every day, but they did get please come back trials, extra time for resubbing, and reactivation weekends, all with unhindered play. You can't call that negligible or trivial at all. In all honesty, I think I'd rather have a reactivation weekend than "premium access" all the time. Yeah, I can't log in whenever I feel like it with the former, but dang if those two days didn't feel totally awesome regardless of whether I was subbed or not at the time.
For trivia on the other reasons I would ever resub, the big chunk of the remainder was friends telling me, in detail, all that had happened and begging me to come back. But, that won't happen anymore since all the friends I have contact with outside the game don't play anymore since they wanted to play City of Heroes, not City of Gods (their reason, not mine). The other bit was having to unsub for small amounts of time, like a week, and my first sub after playing the Mac Open Beta.
Edit:
Does someone without access to inventions even get recipe and I-salvage drops? |
It's also a really big reward for long time subscribers (> 5 years) |
Because we the players have shown some interest in the game and helped bring the game to its current state in some form or another. All this before it became a free game (excuse me a hybrid free to play / perma trial). Let the new players that never had that kind of glory deal with the restrictions of the invention system, as they will not miss it (you cant miss what you never had). So to them it's not like it's making the game feel negative or less of a game. To them it's free!
(sound of bicycle with a clacker in the spokes "I want my two dollars ... two dollars") |
Totally cant justify the reason of spending $2 for just 30 days of the Invention system, when you can spend just a little more to get VIP, and get points, etc. Which I do when I have it. I don't even have the little $2 even if I did, I think I would rather eat then play a game. Speaking of which, I need to scrap something together, other then yesterdays 2 slices of BREAD that wasn't very filling!
NT, you sound as if you live near someone that you've maybe had this discussion with.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Only because they made it that way for freedom! It should not be period. If anyone wants my honest opinion...Anyone that subbed for ANY length of time (before freedom), or used a retail code should have perma access to inventions.
Because we the players have shown some interest in the game and helped bring the game to its current state in some form or another. All this before it became a free game (excuse me a hybrid free to play / perma trial). Let the new players that never had that kind of glory deal with the restrictions of the invention system, as they will not miss it (you cant miss what you never had). So to them it's not like it's making the game feel negative or less of a game. To them it's free! |
Quote:
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Totally cant justify the reason of spending $2 for just 30 days of the Invention system, when you can spend just a little more to get VIP, and get points, etc. Which I do when I have it. I don't even have the little $2 even if I did, I think I would rather eat then play a game. Speaking of which, I need to scrap something together, other then yesterdays 2 slices of BREAD that wasn't very filling! |
Bueller... Bueller... (another old movie quote)
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Nobody is really unhappy at the prospect that new characters are locked out of IOs, or as you return to leveling characters, the new powers and new slots are limited to SOs. Use the invention system as a carrot for your new characters - and without access to the Incarnate system, there's a limit how much someone will want to play their level 50 character.
The problem is when a player is returning to the game and wants to play an existing character (and particularly if they're just back checking it and deciding if they want to return full time). Even assuming they have complete knowledge of all the changes in City of Heroes and so don't try taking them out on a TF before realizing their powers are weakened to near uselessness, the steps involved in making that character playable are somewhat long and boring. For those who have already decided they're back to play, it's an annoyance. For those who are deciding whether to stay or not, it could tip the decision into "yeah, this game isn't as fun as I remembered".
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Kids nowadays, no appreciation for the classics.
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I'm sorry you guys yes I will point the finger now at the community. Whats the problem with it? Some would consider waving a carrot in front of a starving animal, animal cruelty. Well paragon I can be cruel too! There is still plenty of content to get people to spend their hard earned money (when they are earning it).
I remember why I never started to publicly discuss on forums, and other media. So I am gone...not that any of you give a flying pancake.
That is all.
So, your trying to call me a child? I still do not follow you.
I'm sorry you guys yes I will point the finger now at the community. Whats the problem with it? Some would consider waving a carrot in front of a starving animal, animal cruelty. Well paragon I can be cruel too! There is still plenty of content to get people to spend their hard earned money (when they are earning it). I remember why I never started to publicly discuss on forums, and other media. So I am gone...not that any of you give a flying fkkkkk. That is all. |
Something witty and profound
You didn't click on the link there did you. It's to an 80s movie that two dollars is a running joke.
The question is simple business. How much would NCSoft lose in subscriptions or license fees if IO system access was made available for free versus how much money they will make on returning players either resubscribing or choosing to buy Paragon Points for other purchases because the IO system access is free.
I think they wisely concluded that if everyone had free IO system access that they would loose subscribers and have fewer new or returning players ever spend any money to play this game. That's bad, if it's not obvious to you, since the game will quickly close because it's not a sustainable business model.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
So, your trying to call me a child? I still do not follow you.
I'm sorry you guys yes I will point the finger now at the community. Whats the problem with it? Some would consider waving a carrot in front of a starving animal, animal cruelty. Well paragon I can be cruel too! There is still plenty of content to get people to spend their hard earned money (when they are earning it). I remember why I never started to publicly discuss on forums, and other media. So I am gone...not that any of you give a flying fkkkkk. That is all. |
You know, as a career.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Yea! Another quote for an early Cusack movie.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Even assuming they have complete knowledge of all the changes in City of Heroes and so don't try taking them out on a TF before realizing their powers are weakened to near uselessness, the steps involved in making that character playable are somewhat long and boring. For those who have already decided they're back to play, it's an annoyance. For those who are deciding whether to stay or not, it could tip the decision into "yeah, this game isn't as fun as I remembered".
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I'm sorry you guys yes I will point the finger now at the community. Whats the problem with it? Some would consider waving a carrot in front of a starving animal, animal cruelty.
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I'd rate that a 9 out of 10 for hyperbole!
Tell me, is it also a SLAP IN THE FACE?
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I don't understand why more companies do not produce content for people who are not willing to pay anything for it.
I would submit that someone who is not willing to shell out even $2 per month is not a customer that NCSoft should be eagerly pursuing.
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Unwilling to ever shell out $2 per month? Maybe.
Unwilling to shell out $2 to check out this game that has been advertised as "You can play for free" (Actually, $5 since you can't buy $2 worth of points), why bother with premium then.
Actually, been thinking, and if it would completely destroy the economy and put everyone at Paragon out of work for IOed characters to be immediately playable, here's solution #3:
Player unlocks character with IOs slotted, and no invention license (not VIP, reward tier too low, hasn't paid). An extra build is created automatically and switched to, same power choices and slots, but nothing in there. Add a window in the unlocking process where you claim SOs to fill those slots, or teleport them to an appropriate store location with a dialog "You must buy enhancements for this character". There's still the process of buying all the enhancements (which is why I'd call for a dedicated "fill the slots" UI for this situation as opposed to "buy 10 enhancements to fill your tray, manage enhancements, put enhancements in slots, swear softly to yourself because you didn't get the right enhancements because it's been so long, repeat") but the mandatory respec aspect isn't there.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
What I share a concern for is the welcoming experience for returning players in the sense that it could negatively impact reviews in the gaming press. I'm not thinking in terms of individual people and their complaints; I thought I was at first, but now I realize I'm thinking more in terms of collective feedback that we always ought to have our ears open to. For anyone reading along, I mentioned this earlier in the thread, much more briefly. But to explain further, Twilight Phoenix (the OP) represents something in this case that is larger than himself. For every one person who complains, I wonder if dozens could have turned away silently. When there are spikes in the number of people who are complaining, that wonder almost becomes paranoia.
I'm a VIP with no plans to unsubscribe. Even when I take a short break--usually once or twice a year for a month or two--I stay subscribed. So you might think I've got no personal investment in the Free or Premium experience. You might think the same of yourself. As VIPs, many of us probably take for granted that our game's lifeblood is its existing subscriber base. Click around on different peoples badges and you'll see so many 6, 7, 8-year veterans in this game, it's crazy. That's unique for the genre. "Don't like it? Don't play." That's what we like to say around here. Right? I don't think that's a good thing to do, and I'm not simply getting at politeness. I'm getting at self-preservation.
Because it's not so simple. We're all part of the same system. A system that brings VIP players new content and better features. The Free and Premium experience are links in that chain. If and when those links are weak, or even just when they suffer the appearance of being weak in the gaming media, the VIP experience suffers to some degree or another. That degree is measured not just in dollars and cents, but retention.
I would submit that someone who is not willing to shell out even $2 per month is not a customer that NCSoft should be eagerly pursuing.
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![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
At the same time, that doesn't describe most MMO players, who are just looking for fun (no nefarious scheming there). But still, brand loyalty is often not simply bought into from a point of sale on the purchaser's end. Sometimes, it's the other way around. TV, radio, soft drink corporations, internet browsers can all attest to this reality. A free player today might be a paid player tomorrow. In this way, a significant portion of free players are worth investing in. They're exactly that: investments. Tomorrow often doesn't come immediately, but the goal is to keep them here until it does. I can't count the number of times I've met someone in City of Heroes who picked it up on a trial or F2P basis because they were penniless, unemployed and playing a free game. I also can't count the number of times I've used this as a way to cheer someone up about their job search, so that they could subscribe for the benefits.
TL;DR, there are layers of considerations here. This is not a black and white subject.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Ha ha ha, oh wow.
What I share a concern for is the welcoming experience for returning players in the sense that it could negatively impact reviews in the gaming press. I'm not thinking in terms of individual people and their complaints; I thought I was at first, but now I realize I'm thinking more in terms of collective feedback that we always ought to have our ears open to. For anyone reading along, I mentioned this earlier in the thread, much more briefly. But to explain further, Twilight Phoenix (the OP) represents something in this case that is larger than himself. For every one person who complains, I wonder if dozens could have turned away silently. When there are spikes in the number of people who are complaining, that wonder almost becomes paranoia.
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Maybe I'm still biassed so many years later, but I don't consider telling a player to just leave or that he's worthless to the company and the community, or even just making that player feel bad because he or she isn't doing "enough" to be a good or even a smart thing. I know City of Heroes isn't a true F2P model game. That's what the developers went with, that's what we have. But to tell people that "if you don't want to pay, you're not worth the bandwidth it costs to support you" is not cool just the same. This is our community, people. Do we really want to make it seem hostile, greedy and unwelcoming?
OK, it's a business. The publishers have to make money. Players are expected to pay for what they want to have. That's fine, we can work with it, but a player coming back to play purportedly for free and finding the bulk of the game locked away should not be greeted with contempt, but rather with sympathy. Such a player shouldn't be treated as a freeloader or an ingrate because, shock of all horrors, he came to "Play for free! FOREVER!" like the promo video says. Yes, that's not possible for business reasons, but our recourse really shouldn't be to try and make that person feel unwated because he isn't paying enough.
When Freedom was still being discussed, one of my biggest fears of it was exactly this attitude - that it would create a "class divide" where some people would end up being told that they're not paying enough and so they're worthless and the game should never cater to them. It's not the reality of the situation so much as this attitude that I think is outright terminal for the game. Even at its peak of popularity, City of Heroes was a niche game with a limited audience. The LAST thing we want is to chase away legitimate players. Even if what they want for free will never be free, there are better ways to get that across than "If you're not paying, you're not worth the company's time."
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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When Freedom was still being discussed, one of my biggest fears of it was exactly this attitude - that it would create a "class divide" where some people would end up being told that they're not paying enough and so they're worthless and the game should never cater to them. It's not the reality of the situation so much as this attitude that I think is outright terminal for the game. Even at its peak of popularity, City of Heroes was a niche game with a limited audience. The LAST thing we want is to chase away legitimate players. Even if what they want for free will never be free, there are better ways to get that across than "If you're not paying, you're not worth the company's time."
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
The class divide was always there, the division just used to be more complete. The serfs couldn't whine at the nobles about it much, if at all, and thus we never had to respond to it.
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My point is you need to let a Free player have fun in the game for free in order to convince him that this game is worth sticking around in. Because it's fun. We, as the community, don't control pricing or development priorities, obviously, but the least we can do is lash out at people unsatisfied with the pricing model less. If I never see another poster talk about "entitlement" and "spoiled brats" again, I will be very happy.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In essence, Samuel, I do agree with everything you say here. There are a couple of things though that I have a problem with.
Firstly, I'm sure you're well aware that there are players that will "leave the game angry" no matter what you do for them. They are usually very vocal, and usually also expect more than they can ever realistically hope to have. I'm sure you don't expect us, the community, to bend over backwards to back them up.
Secondly, I think the biggest problem with the whole F2P model that Paragon have adopted is really the Premium one. If you think about it the other two cater for their intended audiences fairly well; if you're a paid up subscriber, happy days. If you're a brand new player and you play with a free account you have pretty much everything you need to get you started for absolutely nothing. IOs, certain AT's and the like aren't necessary for someone that's never played the game before, and so it's right that those restrictions are applied. You can still "have fun", "try the game" and all the things the supporters of the OP are advocating without alienating the player. Most reasonable people will understand that you don't actually get much for free and if they enjoy the experience the free model offers, they'll be happy to subscribe.
The trouble comes if you're previously a subscriber and you want to play under the "Premium" system. Those restrictions mean that you won't be able to play all of your old characters, their IO's won't work and a whole load of other stuff that you used to have, you now won't have. The point is, are those restrictions REALLY all that bad when it comes down to it? Why should someone who doesn't pay a monthly fee have anything like the same access to the ones that do, just because they USED to subscribe? It's worth remembering that before F2P, if you didn't subscribe you couldn't play at all, so I'm less than sympathetic when people who did subscribe who now don't (or won't) complain when certain stuff isn't available.
It's worth mentioning too that if you give too much stuff to Premium players that would normally be available to regular subscribers, your regular subscribers could say "hang on a mo, if I get all this stuff when I'm not subscribing, why do I need to bother subscribing at all?"
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
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I agree with this statement. It's easy to adopt the "I'm fine, so if you don't like it, just go away" mentality, but that's very, very damaging to the game. The simple fact is that no-one benefits from a player leaving a game angry. The angry player obviously doesn't, but neither do we the persistent players because that's one less person to support the game.
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]I lived through the horror days of the Surviving 15, where subscriptions were critical, the development team was down to a skeleton crew and every player mattered. I don't know how many of us are left from back then and how many of us still remember those days, but back then, we kind of sort of had to learn to treasure every player that paid money for this game or, hell, even had a good thing to say about it to his friends.
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Maybe I'm still biassed so many years later, but I don't consider telling a player to just leave or that he's worthless to the company and the community, or even just making that player feel bad because he or she isn't doing "enough" to be a good or even a smart thing. I know City of Heroes isn't a true F2P model game.
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That's what the developers went with, that's what we have. But to tell people that "if you don't want to pay, you're not worth the bandwidth it costs to support you" is not cool just the same. This is our community, people. Do we really want to make it seem hostile, greedy and unwelcoming?
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OK, it's a business. The publishers have to make money. Players are expected to pay for what they want to have. That's fine, we can work with it, but a player coming back to play purportedly for free and finding the bulk of the game locked away
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"Play for free! FOREVER!" like the promo video says. Yes, that's not possible for business reasons
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When Freedom was still being discussed, one of my biggest fears of it was exactly this attitude - that it would create a "class divide" where some people would end up being told that they're not paying enough and so they're worthless and the game should never cater to them. It's not the reality of the situation so much as this attitude that I think is outright terminal for the game. Even at its peak of popularity, City of Heroes was a niche game with a limited audience. The LAST thing we want is to chase away legitimate players. Even if what they want for free will never be free, there are better ways to get that across than "If you're not paying, you're not worth the company's time."
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Think of it like this: you've just won a free car. It don't come with spinners, mag wheels, a blaupunkt or seat warmers. He's complaining about the stuff it doesn't come with. He was told that if he wanted the accessories that he'd have to pay for them. His response was "I don't wanna! I want the free car I think I should have!"
Well sorry son but it don't work like that. Not in CoH or life in general.
Something witty and profound
I'm sure you're well aware that there are players that will "leave the game angry" no matter what you do for them. They are usually very vocal, and usually also expect more than they can ever realistically hope to have. I'm sure you don't expect us, the community, to bend over backwards to back them up.
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My point, however, is that we need to be VERY careful about who we smite. For as good as our community is, we're also far too quick to lash out at people with legitimate complaints just because we don't have them. Remember the whole "performance boosters" debacle? Yeah, almost instantly we resorted to the "If you have a problem with this, there's something wrong with your head." argument against people who did nothing more than try to explain why it was they had a problem in the first place. We have a tendency to dismiss people's problems we don't have and then blame people for having those problems in the first place. Sucks to be you. If only you played the game my way and enjoyed what I enjoy, you wouldn't have a problem!
I don't know why the marketing side of this game attracts the bulk of these arguments, but it's pretty much a fact at this point that whenever someone rises a complaint on a marketing subject, that person will be demonised and the problem blamed back on him. We don't need to do this. A lot of the time the problem is with the game's marketing strategy itself, but even when it isn't, telling someone he's not welcome really helps no-one. Again, someone feeling he should be getting more for free isn't somehow insulting the game or being childish or selfish or arrogant. That's the value he puts on his money and on the game itself. That's fine - City of Heroes isn't good value for time and money for this person. It can't be for everyone. Simply let that person leave. He wasn't going to stay around anyway, and browbeating him on the way out makes him hate the game AND the community.
It's worth mentioning too that if you give too much stuff to Premium players that would normally be available to regular subscribers, your regular subscribers could say "hang on a mo, if I get all this stuff when I'm not subscribing, why do I need to bother subscribing at all?"
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I bring this up when it comes to clear money-syphoning schemes like Super Packs and Performance Boosters. Zwillinger himself said that consumables weren't selling well and Marketing were looking for a way to get us to buy more of them. Here's my problem - why are they even trying to get "us" to buy consumables? "We" are VIP subscribers that already pay for a consumable every month. That's what the VIP subscription is. Why are marketing schemes repeatedly targeted at VIP players? Why is Marketing continuously trying to squeeze more money out of VIP players?
Again, it's not the money that bothers me here. I can afford it. It's the attitude and the treatment which I find insufficiently good. As a VIP subscriber, I would pay to circumvent the random lottery that is the Super Packs in much the same way as I'd pay to disable ads on a site. I would pay money to be treated as an actual VIP, rather than the target of marketing spam. I would pay money to be excluded from all drives to sell me things I don't really need. To me, better treatment and the ability to skip the annoying crap Marketing comes up with to trick people out of their money is what a VIP subscription should be all about.
I can afford the expenses, but what AM I getting as a VIP that can't be described as "the ability to spend less money?" Because I'd actually like to spend more money if that would get Marketing out of my hair for good.
*edit*
Funny thing is, I'm one of those people who mocked Paragon Studios/NCNC/Cryptic Studios Marketing for sitting on their hands and doing nothing to promote the game. However, when I said that, I didn't mean that they should promote the game TO ME. I've already bought it. I own City of Heroes, City of Villains, Going Rogue, the DVD Collectors' Edition (thanks, NT!) and almost every Booster Pack that came put. I've bought the game and I'm subscribing to it. What more do you want from me? Why not go bug potential new customers and get THEM to buy it instead of trying to get even more money out of me?
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Once instant snipe solution hits live, yes IO system should be open to all.
Why? Just team with buffers or stock up on yellow inspirations or take a self buffing power like build up or aim or total focus if you want to play army of one.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Let me add all this up:
City of Heroes (with month of time) $34.95
Going Rouge (with month of time) Not factored it was on sale like $9.99 or something.
City of villains (with month of time) A Gift Not factored
15 months of gameplay (most of them cards which had cost more) $224.85 @$14.99 per month
Others (Perks) Not Factored
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$259.80 - I just don't understand how that doesn't give me the right to earn an invention license in game.
The fact is that I was a player back then, I do feel cheated out on some content on which is now a CORE (In my opinion, because of how I play the game, and on which character I spent the majority of my time playing) component. When the switch happened.
I guess I could always talk him into letting me play on his account. NVM this discussion! Peace!
Since it takes longer to attain the next tier, much like how XP ramps up so you level quickly at the beginning and then slow down, each tier's bonus has to be better than the one before. Tier 2 (+1) gives you e-mail, MA play but no tickets and tells; Tier 3 (+3) gives you all chat; Tier 4 (+3) gives you lifetime Auction House, MA play with tickets, medium Inspiration drops and all the ancillary merit rewards; Tier 5 (+5) gives you Controllers and Masterminds; Tier 6 (+7) gives you full MA access; Tier 7 (+7) is of course Inventions and Tier 8 (+7) gives you big Inspiration drops (whoopee!) but an extra 150PP stipend if you are VIP.
Could they have made the invention system more like what they did with MA, have levels of unlocks? Probably but not as easy as they could with MA since there are already code in MA to limit what a player can do there. The Invention system is everything so they could either block it or not unless they add additional checks to enable/disable access to what types of enhancements that could be made and equipped. Initially everyone gets access to the temp powers and costume parts. Then you step up to common IOs; everything but purples and then total unlock.
But that still doesn't fix the problem of greyed out IOs. Again, very easy to simply turn off, much more complicated to "convert" them to basic enhancements. Killing set bonuses is easy, unFrankenslotting 5 SOs worth of enhancements into 4 slots, not so much.
Still this boils down to players who don't want to subscribe but don't want to pay two dollars (sound of bicycle with a clacker in the spokes "I want my two dollars ... two dollars"). Unlike you there are players who have a whole lot more time invested in it and still don't have enough tokens to unlock IOs. I feel more sorry those who payed for four or five years versus someone who only played less than two.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet