So I want to return but...
By
A Musing Mage,
Posted on: 2012-07-10 14:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Paragon Wiki might be wrong, as now I distinctly remember being able to unlock them for the week or so a few months ago when my sub lapsed for a bit. Also what was just posted by another poster jives with that.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Well, cable TV *Does* carry the channels that are free to air... however without the UK TV License you are actually breaking the law and can risk the fine/criminal record.
Just checked the Paragon Rewards Tree on Paragon Wiki... according to that HEATS/VEATS are NOT unlockable as a bonus (unlike Masterminds/Controllers). They are strictly VIP/shop purchase access only. |
Anyone who has them unlocked currently, willing to cancel their sub for a day to try it out?
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Interesting . . . so they allow Cable companies to sell something that they really shouldn't be able to.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Well, cable TV *Does* carry the channels that are free to air... however without the UK TV License you are actually breaking the law and can risk the fine/criminal record.
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here if that would be like the Cable companies giving you free access to HBO and Showtime without you actually paying for them. That wouldn't fly and the cable company in question would face a lawsuit, and it's technically a crime for the CABLE COMPANY.
the UK is weird.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
So what do folks think of the idea of being able to earn IO license time in game via just playing the game (and getting merits to unlock them, or as part of end of missiong/story arc bonuses)?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Unlocking IOs in-game would be fine, unless it required doing something absurd like killing 1,000 heavies in RV every week.
Also, I can log into my Peacebringer. No idea if you drop from VIP though.
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Even easier, i can spend a Character unlock slot on my PB and see if it works.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Paragon Wiki might be wrong, as now I distinctly remember being able to unlock them for the week or so a few months ago when my sub lapsed for a bit. Also what was just posted by another poster jives with that.
Anyone willing to cancel their sub for a day to try it out? |
It does indeed work *for now*, which makes it even more bizzare in that controllers/masterminds are locked even if you unlock their slot...
I cannot make a new HEAT/VEAT though.
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But you already unlocked it before you went free right?
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Unlocking IOs in-game would be fine, unless it required doing something absurd like killing 1,000 heavies in RV every week.
Also, I can log into my Peacebringer. No idea if you drop from VIP though. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I think the original argument was "that masterminds/controllers are the more complex/hard to play Ats."|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Even easier, i can spend a Character unlock slot on my PB and see if it works.
It does indeed work *for now*, which makes it even more bizzare in that controllers/masterminds are locked even if you unlock their slot... I cannot make a new HEAT/VEAT though. |
Going by that logic, HEATs/VEATs aren't nearly as complex.
And they dropped the unlock for them to like level 20, so actually it makes perfect sense that the most complex ones are locked. This I think (if my memory is right) is the argument.
Grant you I don't necessarily agree with that argument. I've never found controllers to be all that complex. I'd argue that if we were talking about complex Masterminds would be the only one.
/shrug
EDIT: And honestly I've never found ANY AT in this game all the complex.
again /shrug
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Slightly wrong, as they are not allowed to charge you for access to those channels that are "free to air". So even if you cancel your cable/satellite package, you still retain access to the basic level of what is broadcast on terrestrial Digital TV for *free* (even if it is through the satellite/cable box).|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Interesting . . . so they allow Cable companies to sell something that they really shouldn't be able to.
here if that would be like the Cable companies giving you free access to HBO and Showtime without you actually paying for them. That wouldn't fly and the cable company in question would face a lawsuit, and it's technically a crime for the CABLE COMPANY. the UK is weird. |
However, even without the TV license i am officially breaking the law and subject to the fine/court case.
(It is also more common over here in the UK that if you do choose to cancel your subscription to cable/satellite TV, as long as it isn't in the 1st year, you generally get to keep the hardware)
Yes, I had them unlocked before Freedom. Not sure if I can make new ones since I'm out of slots and I'm not willing to delete anything.
If I recall, the reason for gating Controllers and MMs given was because of "performance", as if they would be too rough on the servers or slow everyone's computer to a crawl to allow totally free players to use them. That always felt a bit like a wall-banger because Defenders, Dominators, and Corruptors are all still available and would cause similar performance issues and they're not too hard to permanently unlock. And there was no trouble with any of them pre-Freedom either way (though I suppose if all the NPCs in gang war had capes, Thug MMs would have a portable lag hill from the ITF).
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The reason Controllers and MMs were treated definitely, from what they said, was the pets. One of the most cpu intensive parts of running a zone on the server is keeping track of where everyone is, who can see who, who is reachable by an aoe, etc. For those calculations, One Mastermind with six pets out = 7 Defenders in terms of burden on the server, one fire controller with the three imps out = 4 Defenders. Whether that justifies locking them or not is left as an exercise for the reader, but that's the explanation given and it seems reasonable.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Yes, I had them unlocked before Freedom. Not sure if I can make new ones since I'm out of slots and I'm not willing to delete anything.
If I recall, the reason for gating Controllers and MMs given was because of "performance", as if they would be too rough on the servers or slow everyone's computer to a crawl to allow totally free players to use them. That always felt a bit like a wall-banger because Defenders, Dominators, and Corruptors are all still available and would cause similar performance issues and they're not too hard to permanently unlock. And there was no trouble with any of them pre-Freedom either way (though I suppose if all the NPCs in gang war had capes, Thug MMs would have a portable lag hill from the ITF). |
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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It's kindof a combination of the buff/debuff effects and the pets, although it was passed off as a "pet class" issue - pets provide a more significant performance hit on the server than the various buff/debuff effects. Of course, this was really targeted at Masterminds (Thugs MM with Burnout = 26 pets from the primary alone), and I think Controllers were just hit for parity reasons (since Dominators get pets also and are allowed) although they have 1-5 pets and take the buff/debuff sets as well.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Yes, I had them unlocked before Freedom. Not sure if I can make new ones since I'm out of slots and I'm not willing to delete anything.
If I recall, the reason for gating Controllers and MMs given was because of "performance", as if they would be too rough on the servers or slow everyone's computer to a crawl to allow totally free players to use them. That always felt a bit like a wall-banger because Defenders, Dominators, and Corruptors are all still available and would cause similar performance issues and they're not too hard to permanently unlock. And there was no trouble with any of them pre-Freedom either way (though I suppose if all the NPCs in gang war had capes, Thug MMs would have a portable lag hill from the ITF). |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Which is still why it's a wall-banger since Doms can have just as many pets as a Controller and aren't locked. Or at the time at least, Controllers can have one more than Doms now with them getting their own Dark Miasma set.
Also, Defender and Corruptor sets are full of psuedo- and regular pets. Just look at Traps.
But I'm glad they didn't lock Doms, they had become one of my favorite classes before I quit earlier. Two of my unlocked slots would have been wasted had they been locked, which would have seriously sucked.
Edit: And how many times does this game have to verify the piggs? The NCSoft launcher did it, then redownloaded them, then did it again, and now CoX itself is doing it.
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You're still over complicating the basic facts here. What is available to you now as a subscriber compared to what was available to you as a subscriber before F2P was introduced is exactly NIL. You are not getting anything LESS by subscribing under the F2P system than when the F2P system didnt exist. In fact you're getting a whole lot more because of all the things that have been introduced for subscribers since then.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
SteelRat, you assume TwilightPhoenix would have resubscribed, but she hadn't.
The F2P elements of CoH have two main advantages, convincing old players to come back and give it another try, and convincing new players to give it a try. When an old player comes back, they start on a journey to two destinations. "Oh, yeah, I remember why I played this game, I'm back, cool (and I'll dump some money into the game as a subscription or buy points)" or "Oh, yeah, I remember why I quit this game, I'm outta here (and if anyone asks my opinion of the game, I'll explain why they should give it a pass)". It serves the dev's purposes and the other player's purposes for the returning player to end up at the "remember why they played". In this journey, the making a decision, it's pretty simple. Fun stuff pushes you to staying, unfun/frustrating/boring stuff pushes you to leaving. If you have existing characters of a high level, the issue with IOs adds a bunch of unfun/frustating/boring parts to getting back to playing those characters. Even if we know "well, they could just create a second build and then go through all the levels of training and then find a store and buy SOs to slot it out and then have fun"... (a) the second builds aren't a highly promoted part of the game, externally or internally, and (b) it's a somewhat long process of not-fun even if they perfectly remember their old build of what they like and how to slot them. Is the game DOOOOMMMEEED if this lousy out-of-box experience continues? No. But assuming we'd actually like to have a lot of people playing the game, things that turn people off are not good. |
So I really have no sympathy at all with people that say "when I subscribed I had all this stuff, and now I have to resubscribe to get it back". That kind of attitude really does beggar belief, quite frankly.
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It isn't that a free player would be able to have 6 pets out plus themselves. |
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
The reason Controllers and MMs were treated definitely, from what they said, was the pets. One of the most cpu intensive parts of running a zone on the server is keeping track of where everyone is, who can see who, who is reachable by an aoe, etc. For those calculations, One Mastermind with six pets out = 7 Defenders in terms of burden on the server, one fire controller with the three imps out = 4 Defenders. Whether that justifies locking them or not is left as an exercise for the reader, but that's the explanation given and it seems reasonable.
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It's that a VIP, or free, or Premium player would be able to play 8 Masterminds simultaneously, using 7 free accounts and their main one. All you would have to do is set the 7 non-active Masterminds to Follow the main one while hovering, and spam a non-targeted power of some kind with their pets set on Aggressive.
Imagine the chaos and lag it would cause in a zone if several people decided to do that all at the same time. There actually isn't anything stopping people from doing it now, but since you have to pay 1200 points to unlock Masterminds, you can't just set up a bunch of free accounts to do that with. It's going to cost more than most people are willing to spend.
Edit: Dominators were not locked because they are a more active playstyle. It's a lot easier to 8-box Controllers or MMs than Dominators, because Dominators don't have non-targeted buff powers that can be put on auto-fire.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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To answer this question specifically, I like the idea but agree that it would depend on the requirements. I also don't see it happening, and here's why:|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
So what do folks think of the idea of being able to earn IO license time in game via just playing the game (and getting merits to unlock them, or as part of end of missiong/story arc bonuses)?
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Potential issues with a per-character unlock (which may be why they went with the license subscription model in the first place) is that the permissions may only be able to be set on the account level - which isn't how I would've set it up, but I don't know what they're specifically working through so let's just assume that the license model is based on that limitation. So let's make an assumption that they aren't going to change it to a per-character unlock or they would've done that and marketed it already - having it account-wide only makes it less likely to happen from the devs' perspective since most things that you can do in game that provide substantial rewards only apply to the character that you did it with (think Accolade powers).
Now the next issue is that you have to decide what a fair cost for an account-wide unlock is. We've already shown in this thread that there is a vast gap in perception as to what that fair cost would be, so that's where the largest part of the problem comes in. Someone will think it's too much, and then people will show up to bash them for wanting something for nothing, or someone will think it's too little and talk about how it will kill the game(!) - just look around to see that.
It doesn't resolve the initial impression of coming back only to not be able to use your character the way you built them, and it also discourages using a respec since once you finish you can then reuse the build that you just respecced out of! You can use another build or run around unslotted while trying to unlock the invention system, I suppose, but by itself it's only part of the solution.
So, how are you going to allow the unlock? Let's say you use merits as a way to unlock it. How many merits is enough? 500? 1000? 10000? You're also reducing one of the ways that they can actually get inventions at the same time that they're unlocking it, which isn't a bad tradeoff, but whatever you set as a number will be picked apart and lower-tier players can't earn merits at all.
So I like the idea in concept, but I see a lot of things in the way from it being implemented.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Okay, that verify didn't take long. The performance difference between the Mac client and Windows client is, quite honestly, disgusting. Unlike with the Mac client, the Windows one said "Hey, you can use ultra mode with your hardware!" to which I was like "Ummm... no. I know better." But, even still, I'm having a massive FPS boost with no jitter at higher graphics settings. And that's with me finding a formerly laggy spot and dropping a bunch of formerly laggy powers all over my camera.
I want to go find and punch Transgaming for not doing a better job with the Mac Client (along with every other developer who takes the lazy way out and just uses cider and wine wrappers).
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Except one must ask oneself - why did Paragon go to the trouble of introducing a Premium group of F2P, and add F2P at all? Presumably, one of the goals was having players who were players and quit for one reason or another to come back, give the game a try, and continue playing either as a resubscribed VIP or a Premium player buying points to buy some things here or there.|
Originally Posted by SteelRat
You're still over complicating the basic facts here. What is available to you now as a subscriber compared to what was available to you as a subscriber before F2P was introduced is exactly NIL. You are not getting anything LESS by subscribing under the F2P system than when the F2P system didnt exist. In fact you're getting a whole lot more because of all the things that have been introduced for subscribers since then.
So I really have no sympathy at all with people that say "when I subscribed I had all this stuff, and now I have to resubscribe to get it back". That kind of attitude really does beggar belief, quite frankly. |
What Twilight is saying is that the user experience for that returning player, who wants to say "OK, what's it like to play CoH now", stinks on ice. You choose a character to unlock, using one of your few slots, and surprise it's unplayable. You do manage to get a character unlocked and playable, jump in the game, and the character is weak and easily killed because it effectively has no enhancements - and the answer is "well, pay money to try this game that you decided not to pay money to play and decided to try again because Paragon said you could do so for free, or spend a half hour or so making that character workable"
And a lot of the potential long-term contributing and paying players just say "screw this, this is no fun at all, let me find a game where I can have some fun."
But if the devs made just a few changes, either "If you use one of your limited character slots to unlock a character, you can play it" or at a really base minimum "You get warned if you're unlocking a character you can't play" and "The character you unlock has its enhancements somewhat functional so you can just jump in and play", a number of them will say "Yeah, this is fun, I'm here to stay".
It's not about "but I want it all", it's about "I want to have fun"
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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If it's earnable in game - it's free. Merits are cheap and easy to get, friends can drag you through the unlock quickly, etc. They might as well just remove the invention license or drop the permanent free Invention license to tier 2.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
So what do folks think of the idea of being able to earn IO license time in game via just playing the game (and getting merits to unlock them, or as part of end of missiong/story arc bonuses)?
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And it's clear that this is something the devs don't want to do.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Good points all around all|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
If it's earnable in game - it's free. Merits are cheap and easy to get, friends can drag you through the unlock quickly, etc. They might as well just remove the invention license or drop the permanent free Invention license to tier 2.
And it's clear that this is something the devs don't want to do. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Then there exist options available to you, including subscribing for a month to see what the game is like, or buying unlocks for just the critical components you need to test the game out, like an invention system unlock which is much cheaper than a month's subscription.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
@Arcannavile: I'd pay for the same, similar enough, or better experience that I had from before. Vague, I know. If it helps, I do have things on my in-game store wishlist, I just forget what..
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The thought process was that there was a desire to make some of the archetypes ala carte for premium and free for VIP as a VIP subscription advantage, and the logical thing to do would be to lock one archetype from each faction. Controllers and Masterminds became the obvious choice on each side due to their higher than normal computational requirements on each side, their higher primary powerset construction costs, and the feeling they represented a more advanced playstyle in general.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It isn't that a free player would be able to have 6 pets out plus themselves.
It's that a VIP, or free, or Premium player would be able to play 8 Masterminds simultaneously, using 7 free accounts and their main one. All you would have to do is set the 7 non-active Masterminds to Follow the main one while hovering, and spam a non-targeted power of some kind with their pets set on Aggressive. Imagine the chaos and lag it would cause in a zone if several people decided to do that all at the same time. There actually isn't anything stopping people from doing it now, but since you have to pay 1200 points to unlock Masterminds, you can't just set up a bunch of free accounts to do that with. It's going to cost more than most people are willing to spend. Edit: Dominators were not locked because they are a more active playstyle. It's a lot easier to 8-box Controllers or MMs than Dominators, because Dominators don't have non-targeted buff powers that can be put on auto-fire. |
Why were Dominators not locked if Controllers were? Because for faction fairness it was only going to be one from each side. If people want to know why, that's why. If people want to debate way, they'll need a time machine, as the decision was made quite a while ago.
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I feel for you there. I've seen the Mac client, and sometimes it seems to work fine, and sometimes it seems to be a particularly bad CoV beta build.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Okay, that verify didn't take long. The performance difference between the Mac client and Windows client is, quite honestly, disgusting. Unlike with the Mac client, the Windows one said "Hey, you can use ultra mode with your hardware!" to which I was like "Ummm... no. I know better." But, even still, I'm having a massive FPS boost with no jitter at higher graphics settings. And that's with me finding a formerly laggy spot and dropping a bunch of formerly laggy powers all over my camera.
I want to go find and punch Transgaming for not doing a better job with the Mac Client (along with every other developer who takes the lazy way out and just uses cider and wine wrappers). |
On reasonable hardware, the game client should usually be pretty zippy on Windows even in Ultra Mode these days. They've actually increased the performance of the back end, so things that were server-side laggy are less so in some (not all) cases.
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On my shiny new retina mbp CoH (no matter the graphics settings) spins the fans up almost instantly. That third devil game (in 2880x1800) and the raiders vs. dragons game never* wind up the fans. |
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
I want to go find and punch Transgaming for not doing a better job with the Mac Client (along with every other developer who takes the lazy way out and just uses cider and wine wrappers).
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The cider wrapper must be thrashing my CPU something fierce. Not that I'll do it but I've thought about going back to playing CoH on my 2006 mbp so I don't burn the fans out before their time.
*that I've noticed
edit: CoH runs smooth as silk, it's just disconcerting seeing what doesn't cause the fans to spin up to CoH's near instant fan usage.
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Find that the Mac client is OK on the latest Apple hardware, but on older stuff it does outright suck. I can play on my new laptop, but my older iMac is a crashfest. |
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Okay, that verify didn't take long. The performance difference between the Mac client and Windows client is, quite honestly, disgusting. Unlike with the Mac client, the Windows one said "Hey, you can use ultra mode with your hardware!" to which I was like "Ummm... no. I know better." But, even still, I'm having a massive FPS boost with no jitter at higher graphics settings. And that's with me finding a formerly laggy spot and dropping a bunch of formerly laggy powers all over my camera.
I want to go find and punch Transgaming for not doing a better job with the Mac Client (along with every other developer who takes the lazy way out and just uses cider and wine wrappers). |
Oddly enough I can play a pretty new game (which is part 3 of said series) from the 400 lb gorilla company on that old iMac quite smoothly. However that company actually writes for Mac rather than fudging a solution.
Too many alts to list.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!