So I want to return but...
By
A Musing Mage,
Posted on: 2012-07-10 14:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Thanks for the info. And yeah SOs doesn't mean play at +3/x8. |
Originally Posted by Pauper
As far as I can tell, this is exactly what happens.
- If you have tier 5 Paragon Rewards, masterminds and controllers are unlocked as a premium player anyway. - If you don't have tier 5, but you created a controller or mastermind when you had access to it (as pre-Freedom subscriber or VIP), you retain access to that character when going premium if that's one of the slots you have unlocked at premium. If you're not tier 5, all that happens when you go back to premium is that you lose the ability to create new controllers or masterminds until you re-up VIP or reach tier 5. I guess I don't see this as a huge problem. And as an aside, I seem to see this other misconception all the time -- the 'game is balanced for SOs' is interpreted as 'I can play this game at whatever difficulty setting I want'. That's simply not true. Sure, a kitted-out toon can probably play at seriously bumped difficulty from a fairly early level, but if you're going with just SOs, assume that your default difficulty should be +0/x0. -- Pauper |
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I don't need to use a monthly license because an AR/Sonic Corruptor doesn't see much benefit from the IO system (my main). I have always had an SO/HO/SHO build, because it was more powerful in certain aspects than my second IO build.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Pay for the monthly license and you can play. Which is much cheaper than $15 a month.
I do agree that a good compromise would be to drop everything to SO level with no set bonuses until you do pay--either resubbing or getting the license, if you want to go month to month. |
Paying the monthly license is too steep for returning players that simply want to play.
While I appreciate your frustration and irritation, the f2p avenue is intended for those who have never experienced the game and thus would not be aware of how awesome they were. These roadblocks that you are experiencing while irritating, they are an incentive to get you to re-enlist. If you got all your previous glory for free then there would be no incentive for you to do so.
However, your comments about a free time of VIP for returning players could be a good idea though the logistics might be complicated. Maybe a nominal fee for full access for a week or something every 6 months might be easier to do for NCSoft. Though, the risk there is that you might get even more irritated by the loss of perks when the free time runs out...
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Since we are tossing out our opinions. The only people I know that are subbed as VIP do so because:|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
If they gave IOs away there would be no reason for lots of people to sub.
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1. Incarnate Content
2. Free costumes
Other than that there is no reason to stay subbed.
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Originally Posted by bpphantom
If both builds are IO builds then you had both too much time and too much patience before you left. I can only presume that it was due to burnout from farming for 3-4 billion to finance 2 IO builds on one character.
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1. It doesn't take much time to make 2 IO builds and it doesn't indicate someone is a hardcore gamer.
2. You don't need to burn a lot of influence to make most IO builds.
3. I do not have 2 IO builds on my main. My primary is a non IO build, and my secondary is an IO build.
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It would help alot to be honest. Even if you were *locked* from creating new Controllers/Masterminds/HEATS/VEATS, you would still at least have access to characters that you have already made.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The class unlock issue is different than the IO issue and I really think all classes should be unlocked, if you drop to premium. At the very least if you've already rolled one of them, you should keep access to the AT . . . perhaps that's the compromise needed.
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IO's are a difficult beast to be honest. They are not in the "base box set" of CoX/CoV and so i would feel that they should *not* be included in the character slot unlocking.
That is a privilege that you have to pay for.
However, I do feel that the earlier suggestion of sliding IO's down to SO scale (set bonus not included of course) would be a decent compromise. At least you are not playing on a totally unenhanced character.
Sure, IO's do influence how you build a character, and your power choices, but at least you can *play* the character and then see what needed to be changed.
However, with the "no enhancements" on a character effect, it really does limit how you can try to play the game.
((Side note: Once again, the previous MMO that i mentioned has "legendary" stuff, which you needed an expansion originally to play around with. You get to keep that if you dropped down to premium status))
Now, if IO's came out in a expansion... If you bought the expansion, you kept it. If you didn't buy the expansion, you didn't have it. You cannot lose what you didn't pay for.
Here, you can loose out if you *didn't pay enough* before you returned to the game.
This argument is based on the point of view of someone who had previously been a subscriber to the game (potentially for several years) but stopped before Freedom was released.
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It might have changed since freedom's beta, but when they did the "set everyone to premium" testing, I lost access to the level 50 Warshade I had on beta. I didn't have a MM or Controller copied or created there, but I was high enough tier to not matter. But I already had an EAT created and could not play it - even after using the character slot unlock on that slot - until I went to the store and paid for the AT. It said that the AT was unplayable when I went to enter the game.
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Originally Posted by Pauper
As far as I can tell, this is exactly what happens.
- If you have tier 5 Paragon Rewards, masterminds and controllers are unlocked as a premium player anyway. - If you don't have tier 5, but you created a controller or mastermind when you had access to it (as pre-Freedom subscriber or VIP), you retain access to that character when going premium if that's one of the slots you have unlocked at premium. If you're not tier 5, all that happens when you go back to premium is that you lose the ability to create new controllers or masterminds until you re-up VIP or reach tier 5. I guess I don't see this as a huge problem. And as an aside, I seem to see this other misconception all the time -- the 'game is balanced for SOs' is interpreted as 'I can play this game at whatever difficulty setting I want'. That's simply not true. Sure, a kitted-out toon can probably play at seriously bumped difficulty from a fairly early level, but if you're going with just SOs, assume that your default difficulty should be +0/x0. -- Pauper |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I thought that it was the other way around... in that you lost access to the archtype *full stop* if you were not of a high enough tier (or you hadn't bought the archtype unlock before unsubbing).
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Originally Posted by Pauper
As far as I can tell, this is exactly what happens.
- If you have tier 5 Paragon Rewards, masterminds and controllers are unlocked as a premium player anyway. - If you don't have tier 5, but you created a controller or mastermind when you had access to it (as pre-Freedom subscriber or VIP), you retain access to that character when going premium if that's one of the slots you have unlocked at premium. If you're not tier 5, all that happens when you go back to premium is that you lose the ability to create new controllers or masterminds until you re-up VIP or reach tier 5. I guess I don't see this as a huge problem. |
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It also shows that many folks miss the point of what the COH model is supposed to be.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I'd like to see the 15 pages.
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That's certainly possible -- I've never played an EAT, so can't comment on access to those, and I don't think there's an EAT 'unlock' at premium anyway.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
It might have changed since freedom's beta, but when they did the "set everyone to premium" testing, I lost access to the level 50 Warshade I had on beta. I didn't have a MM or Controller copied or created there, but I was high enough tier to not matter. But I already had an EAT created and could not play it - even after using the character slot unlock on that slot - until I went to the store and paid for the AT. It said that the AT was unplayable when I went to enter the game.
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Pauper
I totally agree with these feelings the op has felt returning.
Indeed we may be asking for a feature of the game to be free, but honestly it should be free. It's totally free after you have gained enough tokens. There should be a way for it to be obtained free (with some in game work, and if your premium, or used a retail code, something) by reward merits. Perhaps a 15 or 7-day license item would be best. Requiring you to earn it. That way its not as free as some ppl think it is. Just work out the reward merit pricing. So we have to Run Run Run Run those TF's.
I do think there is a lack of items to get with reward merits, and that system should be looked at. Especially for free player mass. I do feel that more people would then ViP after finding out how crazy powerful and fun IO build are to play and make. Its just about as fun as playing the character creator.
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It's waaaay less than the original $15 a month. You and I have different definitions of steep.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
I don't need to use a monthly license because an AR/Sonic Corruptor doesn't see much benefit from the IO system (my main). I have always had an SO/HO/SHO build, because it was more powerful in certain aspects than my second IO build.
Paying the monthly license is too steep for returning players that simply want to play. |
The point of the COH model is not to give everything away for nothing.
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Honestly being able to EARN access to it in game sounds like a VERY GREAT idea!!!!|
Originally Posted by TClauss
I totally agree with these feelings the op has felt returning.
Indeed we may be asking for a feature of the game to be free, but honestly it should be free. It's totally free after you have gained enough tokens. There should be a way for it to be obtained free (with some in game work, and if your premium, or used a retail code, something) by reward merits. Perhaps a 15 or 7-day license item would be best. Requiring you to earn it. That way its not as free as some ppl think it is. Just work out the reward merit pricing. So we have to Run Run Run Run those TF's. I do think there is a lack of items to get with reward merits, and that system should be looked at. Especially for free player mass. I do feel that more people would then ViP after finding out how crazy powerful and fun IO build are to play and make. Its just about as fun as playing the character creator. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Alot of folks I know are subbed only because they don't want to lose access to IOs. They couldn't care less about Incarnate content.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Since we are tossing out our opinions. The only people I know that are subbed as VIP do so because:
1. Incarnate Content 2. Free costumes Other than that there is no reason to stay subbed. There are serious flaws with this logic. 1. It doesn't take much time to make 2 IO builds and it doesn't indicate someone is a hardcore gamer. 2. You don't need to burn a lot of influence to make most IO builds. 3. I do not have 2 IO builds on my main. My primary is a non IO build, and my secondary is an IO build. |
Also the free costumes we've gotten since COH freedom aren't all that hot.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal though.
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From what Twilight says, you are correct. Worse, you are not warned of this before unlocking a character whose AT is not unlocked.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
I thought that it was the other way around... in that you lost access to the archtype *full stop* if you were not of a high enough tier (or you hadn't bought the archtype unlock before unsubbing).
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"You may unlock up to four characters, please pick one."
"I had fun with MyIllusionController, unlock him."
"You have unlocked MyIllusionController. MyIllusionController is not playable because the AT is locked. You may unlock up to three characters, please pick one."
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Yeah THAT needs to change. They need to at least put in a notification.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
From what Twilight says, you are correct. Worse, you are not warned of this before unlocking a character whose AT is not unlocked.
"You may unlock up to four characters, please pick one." "I had fun with MyIllusionController, unlock him." "You have unlocked MyIllusionController. MyIllusionController is not playable because the AT is locked. You may unlock up to three characters, please pick one." |
However, that's not where I would put "at least". If you already rolled one when you are subbed you really should at least keep access to the one you rolled. I'd say you should keep access to the AT in full though. Just my opinion.
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I think the real question here is whether the invention system ought to be a service that costs you money. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It sounds like you want features of the game that cost money, so I recommend you pay those fees. If you are not happy with the game without the services that cost money, you have two choices.
1) Don't play 2) Pay for the features you want. I choose 2, but choice 1 seems reasonable as well. |
I thought it was an interesting idea at first, but over time I've watched how that decision has impacted the gameplay experience of new and especially returning players. If it was indeed a good idea then the invention license would be seen as a motivator to sign up. In practice, this really doesn't seem to be the case. It appears to be a de-motivator, and I can see why it would be a de-motivator. Inventions are way more integral to a character than incarnate powers are. From the standpoint of existing players, they aren't going to feel "optional".
I don't know how much revenue is generated by invention licenses. Maybe it's a lot and that alone is justification enough. There are already so many other limitations in terms of inventory, incarnates, and character slots that I don't see that limiting inventions as well is really all that necessary. This game is the most alt-heavy game in the biz, and I'd think that the best way to get a returning player to subscribe or at least spend some money in the market is to give them a full game experience and encourage them to desire more character slots for alts.
A great deal of the Freedom setup is a big experiment, and I think maybe it's time to look at the results of the experiment and make some adjustments.
However, I'm just a player. I don't know the financials of the company. If they're making 20% of their revenue off of invention licenses then clearly that's actually working for them, no matter how much of a demotivating factor it might appear to be to some players.
Also, to the OP - One of the intentions of this setup is that you can't use inventions so you turn around and buy the inventions off of the market instead. Those sets ARE usable no matter your invention license status, as I understand things. They also scale with your character, or at least some of them do, so you don't spend money on something and then outlevel it right away. Then if you make an alt and you want to transfer the purchased set, you buy some unslotters and then mail your purchased IO's to the alt.
That's part of the intention. How well it's realized in practice I can't say.
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Interesting. I'm subbed, and neither of those are terribly important to me. I only have two incarnates and the second one sat over two months before I did any iStuff with him after Alpha unlock. And the VIP-free costumes generally aren't useful for my concepts. I'm mostly subscribed for the character slots, AT unlocks, Time/Dark, and IOs.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Since we are tossing out our opinions. The only people I know that are subbed as VIP do so because:
1. Incarnate Content 2. Free costumes Other than that there is no reason to stay subbed. |
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This got me wondering...|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
There are already so many other limitations in terms of inventory, incarnates, and character slots that I don't see that limiting inventions as well is really all that necessary.
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In theory, making access to inventions freely available and tightening free access to the peripherals to inventions - storage capacity, auction slots, et al. could drive incremental sales volume for those peripherals. I wonder how the net would align with the current approach from a revenue perspective?
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I think this is what it all boils down to. If limiting IOs (and the market, let's not forget that part of it) is making Paragon Studios plenty of money, then they really shouldn't change it . . . especially if it causing the sale of those other items you mention to be continuous.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I think the real question here is whether the invention system ought to be a service that costs you money.
I thought it was an interesting idea at first, but over time I've watched how that decision has impacted the gameplay experience of new and especially returning players. If it was indeed a good idea then the invention license would be seen as a motivator to sign up. In practice, this really doesn't seem to be the case. It appears to be a de-motivator, and I can see why it would be a de-motivator. Inventions are way more integral to a character than incarnate powers are. From the standpoint of existing players, they aren't going to feel "optional". I don't know how much revenue is generated by invention licenses. Maybe it's a lot and that alone is justification enough. There are already so many other limitations in terms of inventory, incarnates, and character slots that I don't see that limiting inventions as well is really all that necessary. This game is the most alt-heavy game in the biz, and I'd think that the best way to get a returning player to subscribe or at least spend some money in the market is to give them a full game experience and encourage them to desire more character slots for alts. A great deal of the Freedom setup is a big experiment, and I think maybe it's time to look at the results of the experiment and make some adjustments. However, I'm just a player. I don't know the financials of the company. If they're making 20% of their revenue off of invention licenses then clearly that's actually working for them, no matter how much of a demotivating factor it might appear to be to some players. Also, to the OP - One of the intentions of this setup is that you can't use inventions so you turn around and buy the inventions off of the market instead. Those sets ARE usable no matter your invention license status, as I understand things. They also scale with your character, or at least some of them do, so you don't spend money on something and then outlevel it right away. Then if you make an alt and you want to transfer the purchased set, you buy some unslotters and then mail your purchased IO's to the alt. That's part of the intention. How well it's realized in practice I can't say. |
The question is would allowing full access to IOs hurt the sale of those items and would it cause numerous players to simply drop a full sub for good.
Those are questions only NCSoft/Paragon Studios can answer.
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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What do you mean by tightening free access levels?|
Originally Posted by Chyll
This got me wondering...
In theory, making access to inventions freely available and tightening free access levels some could drive incremental sales volume for things like inventory, storage, auction slots, etc. I wonder how the net would align with the current approach from a revenue perspective? |
Are you saying do what the 800 lb gorilla does by only allowing free access to level 20? If so then to me that would be a foolish trade off. There would be no point really since IOs don't start really getting effective until Past level 20, especially since in the early levels you don't have the slots to take advantage of set bonuses.
No, I would not trade full access to IOs for limiting free access to anything below 50. That would hurt the game more.
EDIT: This got me thinking, why not give every freemium players access to FREE regular IOs and FREE access to a THIRD build? (the one that only unlocks with Incarnate content?)
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Pulling this out as a suggestion:
why not give every freemium players access to FREE regular non setIOs/Common IOs and FREE access to a THIRD build? (the one that only unlocks with Incarnate content?)
what do you all think?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I meant tightening free access to the peripherals to inventions - storage capacity, auction slots, et al. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
What do you mean by tightening free access levels?
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I failed to finish typing that sentence/thought. I agree with you and would not recommend any sort of leveling cap.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Even with this discussion, I'm not seeing the benefit in providing free players access to a third build -- especially if you're also going to provide them access to common IOs. IO build/SO build is already a pretty obvious dividing point, and if you're going to be able to use common IOs for free, then IO set build/IO common build becomes the new divider. Not much point to have a third build just for SOs when you can slot common IOs as well.
I'd be OK with allowing free players access to common IOs, but not sure how feasible it would be to allow them to *create* common IOs -- I'd imagine it wouldn't be easy to bifurcate the Invention System so that some players have the ability to craft common IOs only while others have unlimited crafting options. If on the other hand, access to common IOs was added at the same level with access to the auction house, that would be fine, since free players would be able to get their IOs from consignment without needing to be able to craft them.
tl;dr: Don't see the point in allowing free players a third build. Sounds good to let free players buy IOs from Wentworths, but not to craft them.
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Pauper
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I don't think folks store all that much on their person. Keep in mind you also need a separate license to use the market unless I'm mistaken.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I meant tightening free access to the peripherals to inventions - storage capacity, auction slots, et al.
I failed to finish typing that sentence/thought. I agree with you and would not recommend any sort of leveling cap. |
The more valuable thing is access to being able to SLOT CRAFTED inventions and the inventions ALREADY SLOTTED.
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