So I want to return but...
By
A Musing Mage,
Posted on: 2012-07-10 14:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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While IOs might possibly be taken into consideration, New Snipes aren't being released with the intent of having IOs.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Good post!
Let me add that the game will be balanced around IO's in the near future (eg New Snipe), so they will be forced to re-evaluate the perks available to VIPs, Prems, and Free players. |
Build Up and Aim (aim without enhancements) can enable the new snipes.
Targeting drone falls just short with three +3 SOs, but for that I'd probably say screw ED and slot a fourth (or work on getting a dual aspect of some kind). And there are inspirations, and tactics.
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IO's will be the balancing fulcrum for the snipes. It is a matter if they want to lower the threshold so it is easier for SO players.
Basically, they will either have to:
1. Make IO's available to all.
The reason for all the nerfs in the first place was to make room for the IO system.
2. Or make reaching instant snipes far more easier in some other fashion.
CoX hybrid freemium model isn't top five, but it isn't bottom five either. The IO system should be base line given that VIP access isn't about IO's.
To the person that said they pay for IO access, it is more cheaper to buy the license, and it is also more cost effective to pay as you go for powers or character slots.
No logical reason to stay subbed if you are not into Incarnate content. Anyone that tells you otherwise is telling you so for sentimental reasons.
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Then what is anyone whining about?| To the person that said they pay for IO access, it is more cheaper to buy the license, and it is also more cost effective to pay as you go for powers or character slots. |
I'm not interested enough to check your work, but this would be the first time in human history anyone complained about saving money.
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| No logical reason to stay subbed if you are not into Incarnate content. Anyone that tells you otherwise is telling you so for sentimental reasons. |
2: Character slots
3: Character slots
4: Character slots
5: Character slots
6: VIP saves me money- instead of buying stuff the second it comes out, I spend my 'free' points. Playing for "free" I dropped $50 on the market. Since going VIP again I haven't spent any cash on the market, only points.
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It is? I don't pay attention much at this point, but I didn't realize it was doing better than ever. Was there a thread where someone analyzed the financials? Been years since I looked.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The game is demonstrably doing better financially than it ever has. |
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The tsunami of content they've unleashed since the advent of Freedom didn't materialize out of thin air.
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Originally Posted by Jetpack
It is? I don't pay attention much at this point, but I didn't realize it was doing better than ever. Was there a thread where someone analyzed the financials? Been years since I looked.
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-removed-
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This argument makes my Spidey Sense tingle.....I'M OUT OF HERE!
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Originally Posted by TClauss
My opinion feels otherwise. Since the mere fact that it's a vet reward. Longer term players are entitled to have them free, and some are not. They have set the bar there not the players. A long term player is just as likely to never pay since they already have IO's then a free player that has them. At least that's how I feel about it. I don't have any proof or statistics.
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You are upset that you won't be able to insta-snipe while soloing due to not having your IOs? Who the heck cares about insta-snipe? If you don't have enough buff snipes work exactly as they always have, that isn't changing. |
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
IO's will be the balancing fulcrum for the snipes. It is a matter if they want to lower the threshold so it is easier for SO players.
Basically, they will either have to: 1. Make IO's available to all. The reason for all the nerfs in the first place was to make room for the IO system. 2. Or make reaching instant snipes far more easier in some other fashion. CoX hybrid freemium model isn't top five, but it isn't bottom five either. The IO system should be base line given that VIP access isn't about IO's. To the person that said they pay for IO access, it is more cheaper to buy the license, and it is also more cost effective to pay as you go for powers or character slots. No logical reason to stay subbed if you are not into Incarnate content. Anyone that tells you otherwise is telling you so for sentimental reasons. |
You think that players who didn't bother with snipe due to the interrupt delay will respect their characters to include it because with IOs? Are you simply looking for another reason that returning short haul premiums NEED their IOs. I'm guessing you are one who wouldn't be satisfied with downgraded IOs so you at least get some of the lost enhancement bonuses. It's all or nothing for you. You are sounding a whole lot like "I won't come back and pay no money to play this game unless I get my IOs".
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If I view this thread with a microscope, argument by argument, I see a lot of positions on either side of the fence that I think beg for consideration. But when I consider the thread in whole, I only see a great big pile of repeated arguments phrased in slightly different ways. Either ya'll aren't listening to each other, or you're just hoping for miracles in understanding. And the latter doesn't happen around here.
If you want something to change, all you need to do is make a list of points and suggestions. Use paragraphs. Use emboldened letters to mark off new subsections. Do this, and then stop. Stop arguing. Make your point with confidence the first time, and then call it quits. Make it as much about helping their business model to be more profitable as it is about your disagreeableness about spending money on entertainment. The devs already know you don't want to spend money on things. Offer to meet them somewhere in the middle so that everyone comes out on top.
I'm pretty sure the people who need to follow this advice the most won't read this far. But you can't blame me for trying. The fact is, headbutting your fellow forumites won't get you what you need (we're just like you, full of useless opinions), and the more headbutting you do, the more repeated arguments there are, and the less likely it becomes that any developer with a schedule and responsibilities is going to slog through this come Monday.
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I already addressed this in this thread. I will not have a problem reaching the requirements for instant snipe as a Corruptor and my primary build is based on SOs, HOs, and SHOs. I don't use my secondary build (IO's) as it is not really as powerful in some aspects.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
You are upset that you won't be able to insta-snipe while soloing due to not having your IOs? Who the heck cares about insta-snipe? If you don't have enough buff snipes work exactly as they always have, that isn't changing.
You think that players who didn't bother with snipe due to the interrupt delay will respect their characters to include it because with IOs? Are you simply looking for another reason that returning short haul premiums NEED their IOs. I'm guessing you are one who wouldn't be satisfied with downgraded IOs so you at least get some of the lost enhancement bonuses. It's all or nothing for you. You are sounding a whole lot like "I won't come back and pay no money to play this game unless I get my IOs". |
But if the snipe hits live as is, then the game is no longer balanced around SO's in mind.
So, those who are turning green with envy that the IO system may be baseline to free and premium player need to realize the paradigm is shifting.
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As you have no idea what's going to end up live this "paradigm shift" is entirely in your mind.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
So, those who are turning green with envy that the IO system may be baseline to free and premium player need to realize the paradigm is shifting.
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You mean how some long term players are "entitled" to it because of the large sum of money they spent on the game to get that "entitlement"?|
Originally Posted by TClauss
My opinion feels otherwise. Since the mere fact that it's a vet reward. Longer term players are entitled to have them free, and some are not. They have set the bar there not the players. A long term player is just as likely to never pay since they already have IO's then a free player that has them. At least that's how I feel about it. I don't have any proof or statistics.
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Guess what? Nothing's stopping you or anyone else from spending the same amount of money those particular long term players did and earning the same "entitlement" they have.
Oh but wait, you newer players don't have to spend the same amount of money those Vets did. If anyone got screwed on this deal it's the long term Vets.
The vets you are referring to (the ones with 66+ months) spent $990 dollars on the game to get permanent access to IO's. That's 27 Paragon Rewards
The most a new player has to spend is $345 dollars in Paragon Points to be given 27 Paragon Rewards. We get 1 Paragon Reward for every 1200 Paragon Points we purchase, and when we buy in bulk we get bonus points.
$100 dollars gets you 8 Paragon rewards, so $300 gets you 24 tokens, and another $45 gets you three more tokens with points left over to go towards your next token.
And a returning player who already has earned Paragon Rewards from his previous sub will still pay less to unlock IO access than a 66+ month vet did because it's cheaper to get Paragon Rewards by buying them in bulk than it is subbing, and you get the rewards immediately instead of waiting months/years.
So basically you are complaining that the devs are charging you less money to unlock IO access than they charged their 66+ month vets.
Yeah there's not a hint of you having entitlement issues in your argument.
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Well, if they left because those two require extra unlocks, then the fault IS THEIR OWN, not the game's, not other player's, no one else's but THEIR OWN. Why? Because it's spelled out in TWO DIFFERENT POPUPS during the unlock process if a character has multiple locks on it. All required unlocks are spelled out on a locked character, regardless of how many locks are on the character.|
Originally Posted by Mazey
If someone leaves because the first two characters they unlocked were their Mastermind and Controller, and they were never given a warning screen that the characters couldn't be played without paying more, then that's something that should be fixed.
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I sincerely wish people would stop regurgitating this misinformation that somehow got out there.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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"One power being helped by IOs" != "the game is balanced around IOs". Solo stuff doesn't count; the devs see this as an MMO, with the "massively" part being emphasized here. Two people can easily get each other to instasnipe. All instasnipe means is that Leadership>Tactics is going to get infinitely more common.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
I already addressed this in this thread. I will not have a problem reaching the requirements for instant snipe as a Corruptor and my primary build is based on SOs, HOs, and SHOs. I don't use my secondary build (IO's) as it is not really as powerful in some aspects.
But if the snipe hits live as is, then the game is no longer balanced around SO's in mind. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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This makes no more sense than it does to say that because IO sets make it possible for Doms to perma Domination, or for characters to soft-cap defense, then the only possible course of action is for the devs to make IOs available to all. Something which, you might notice, hasn't happened. I'd further suggest that permadom or defense soft-capping is far more significant to gameplay than whether you can fast snipe or not.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
IO's will be the balancing fulcrum for the snipes. It is a matter if they want to lower the threshold so it is easier for SO players.
Basically, they will either have to: 1. Make IO's available to all. The reason for all the nerfs in the first place was to make room for the IO system. 2. Or make reaching instant snipes far more easier in some other fashion. |
IOs make a lot of things easier. They're powerful tools. The idea that 'the game is balanced around SOs' does not mean that SOs should be able to deliver the same performance as IOs. It means that most content should be do-able at normal difficulty with SOs.
Do you foresee that you will suddenly no longer be able to complete the Citadel TF you ran one day because the next day other characters can fast snipe but yours can't? Because that would be a little odd.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
I will not have a problem reaching the requirements for instant snipe as a Corruptor and my primary build is based on SOs, HOs, and SHOs.
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| But if the snipe hits live as is, then the game is no longer balanced around SO's in mind. |
How is insta-snipe any different than lets say perma some power. Easier if on a team with lots of buffs, not so easy solo. How does insta-snipe significantly change the game?
The devs looked at snipe and said that they understand that on a team steamrolling through a mission that it's not very useful due to the delay so their solution is with enough buffs, the assumption is buffs from teammates, snipe will once again be a useful power on teams.
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It's easier for people to blame the company than accept responsibility for their own impatience.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Well, if they left because those two require extra unlocks, then the fault IS THEIR OWN, not the game's, not other player's, no one else's but THEIR OWN. Why? Because it's spelled out in TWO DIFFERENT POPUPS during the unlock process if a character has multiple locks on it. All required unlocks are spelled out on a locked character, regardless of how many locks are on the character.
I sincerely wish people would stop regurgitating this misinformation that somehow got out there. |
This isn't the first time people have gotten burned because they couldn't be bothered to read the pop up windows.
And sure some people could have done the research you did to confirm whether or not the game provides sufficient warnings before blaming the devs, but assuming the worst is much easier.
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It is highly likely a lot of the I24 power changes may be balanced around IO's in mind, so you can't dismiss it so casually like you have done. Once they start with one power, and yes it is likely, and reasonable to assume this is a new start for the game. New people come into the project expect them to make changes that they see fit. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
"One power being helped by IOs" != "the game is balanced around IOs". Solo stuff doesn't count; the devs see this as an MMO, with the "massively" part being emphasized here. Two people can easily get each other to instasnipe. All instasnipe means is that Leadership>Tactics is going to get infinitely more common.
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There was a lots of resistance to making stamina, swift, hurdle, and health baseline, so I am not surprised there is resistance to the idea making IO's base line for Prem and free players. Enhancement diversification and GDN were done so to make room for IO's, but IO system came much later, which made it seem like it wasn't done as compensation. We did not have that knowledge at the time, so we viewed the nerfs at a myopic short term view, instead of the long term view for the sake of balance for the game.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
This makes no more sense than it does to say that because IO sets make it possible for Doms to perma Domination, or for characters to soft-cap defense, then the only possible course of action is for the devs to make IOs available to all. Something which, you might notice, hasn't happened. I'd further suggest that permadom or defense soft-capping is far more significant to gameplay than whether you can fast snipe or not.
IOs make a lot of things easier. They're powerful tools. The idea that 'the game is balanced around SOs' does not mean that SOs should be able to deliver the same performance as IOs. It means that most content should be do-able at normal difficulty with SOs. Do you foresee that you will suddenly no longer be able to complete the Citadel TF you ran one day because the next day other characters can fast snipe but yours can't? Because that would be a little odd. |
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Didn't you just contradict yourself? How is insta-snipe any different than lets say perma some power. Easier if on a team with lots of buffs, not so easy solo. How does insta-snipe significantly change the game? The devs looked at snipe and said that they understand that on a team steamrolling through a mission that it's not very useful due to the delay so their solution is with enough buffs, the assumption is buffs from teammates, snipe will once again be a useful power on teams. |
To address your next point, it is hard for players to adjust based on group composition varying so much in CoX due to different power set combinations, and then there are debuffs. Suffice to say, given how binary the instant snipe is (you either reach the threshold or you don't) it will be interesting how it shakes out.
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Yup, I do have entitlement issues. Nuff said. That's why I removed my post before you or anyone tried to counter it. But thank you for bringing it back up.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You mean how some long term players are "entitled" to it because of the large sum of money they spent on the game to get that "entitlement"?
Guess what? Nothing's stopping you or anyone else from spending the same amount of money those particular long term players did and earning the same "entitlement" they have. Oh but wait, you newer players don't have to spend the same amount of money those Vets did. If anyone got screwed on this deal it's the long term Vets. The vets you are referring to (the ones with 66+ months) spent $990 dollars on the game to get permanent access to IO's. That's 27 Paragon Rewards The most a new player has to spend is $345 dollars in Paragon Points to be given 27 Paragon Rewards. We get 1 Paragon Reward for every 1200 Paragon Points we purchase, and when we buy in bulk we get bonus points. $100 dollars gets you 8 Paragon rewards, so $300 gets you 24 tokens, and another $45 gets you three more tokens with points left over to go towards your next token. And a returning player who already has earned Paragon Rewards from his previous sub will still pay less to unlock IO access than a 66+ month vet did because it's cheaper to get Paragon Rewards by buying them in bulk than it is subbing, and you get the rewards immediately instead of waiting months/years. So basically you are complaining that the devs are charging you less money to unlock IO access than they charged their 66+ month vets. Yeah there's not a hint of you having entitlement issues in your argument. |
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Sorry but you did not remove it before anyone tried to counter it. If you had then neither Nethergoat nor myself would have been able to quote it. Only the Moderators and the other rednames can go into the system and pull up edited posts.|
Originally Posted by TClauss
Yup, I do have entitlement issues. Nuff said. That's why I removed my post before you or anyone tried to counter it. But thank you for bringing it back up.
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What actually happened is that we both quoted your response before you went in to delete it (which took you maybe 30 seconds to delete), and we finished composing and posting our responses after you finished. My own response took longer than Goats because it involved getting information off of Paragonwiki and taking an ingame screenshot of the markets Paragon Points window and adding it to my post. During which time I was also watching Doctor Who on Itunes (I got a huge crush on Karen Gillan) So I was in no rush to finish posting my response.
But nice try trying to paint us as the bad guys.
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If going by total revenue, then i wouldn't say CoX was doing financially better than ever. More like it's essentially at its lowest revenue point in its lifetime...both on a quarterly basis and also yearly total.|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
It is? I don't pay attention much at this point, but I didn't realize it was doing better than ever.
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Will have to see what happens with 2Q when that's released in a month but i'm getting an uneasy twitch that it might be a bit lower still or at the most close to the same which doesn't reflect the kind of growth one would expect from adding an F2P option.
And after about 10 months with Freedom's current design, maybe some re-evaluation is in order.
Not necessarily to make IOs free for all but something.
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Yeah who knows maybe they will restrict it even more to get people to buy more. |
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
If going by total revenue, then i wouldn't say CoX was doing financially better than ever. More like it's essentially at its lowest revenue point in its lifetime...both on a quarterly basis and also yearly total.
Will have to see what happens with 2Q when that's released in a month but i'm getting an uneasy twitch that it might be a bit lower still or at the most close to the same which doesn't reflect the kind of growth one would expect from adding an F2P option. And after about 10 months with Freedom's current design, maybe some re-evaluation is in order. Not necessarily to make IOs free for all but something. |
Of course if they do that maybe then they will take away freemiums abilities to post on the forums that way we don't have to see thread after thread of people whining about how much they are getting for their money (when they aren't paying to play
).I find it unlikely that the features allowed for freebie/preemies will change.... CoH has never been a huge money maker, but it has pulled it's own weight and provided some revenue overall. I am confident that the Paragon Market has generated enough cash flow to keep things going at the rate post Freedom for the foreseeable future
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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The game has long since paid for itself, and the only cost now is maintenence and development of new content. Everything else is pure profit. The only time I'd start worrying is if they stop releasing new stuff.
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Do you ever talk about ANYTHING besides the impending financial doom of the game?|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
If going by total revenue, then i wouldn't say CoX was doing financially better than ever.
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You're worse than Beetlejuice- someone only has to mention "revenue" ONCE and up you pop with your sad head shaking and glum expression.
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My City Was Gone
"Justified,"
"Abused,"
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I like the way you try to play the uber-rational, even-handed card by asserting that the emotional argument is irrelevant -- and then in the very next sentence you take sides in the emotional debate, assigning victim status to returning Freemium players.
But hey, I sure am glad to be subjected to Mazey's aggressive-nitpicky arbiter-of-truth schtick upon my return to the forums. Feels like I'm picking up just where I left off.