I am thinking of reviving my Fire Dom due to Bonfire+Oppressive Force. Nerf incoming?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-01 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I think the other obvious nerf is to just make the KB conversion an actual proc rather than some kind of set bonus. Make it so the KB conversion is 100% on powers that KB but, in powers that persist like toggles and passives, the conversion only occurs on 10 second tics like any other proc.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't know why people keep saying this either. The obvious nerf (if they're going to nerf it) is just to make Bonfire not accept Universal Damage Sets. If fact, I expect that's a major part of the reason they put this IO in a whole new category like this. Just so that they can target nerf without making changes to the power or the IO.
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For the purpose of the proc, it should be slottable in powers that really do damage.
It should also convert 100% of the KB into KD when activated.
But I don't see why this proc has to function uniquely by functioning on every tic rather than after every 10 seconds.
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That makes the most sense to me. Like most procs, it works fine in once and done powers, but may get problematic in persistent powers.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But I don't see why this proc has to function uniquely by functioning on every tic rather than after every 10 seconds.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Bonfire without this proc is a terrible power.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I think the other obvious nerf is to just make the KB conversion an actual proc rather than some kind of set bonus. Make it so the KB conversion is 100% on powers that KB but, in powers that persist like toggles and passives, the conversion only occurs on 10 second tics like any other proc.
For the purpose of the proc, it should be slottable in powers that really do damage. It should also convert 100% of the KB into KD when activated. But I don't see why this proc has to function uniquely by functioning on every tic rather than after every 10 seconds. |
So situational that it is best not taken.
A kd every 10 seconds with the rest of the icks being kb is just as bad as the 100% kb the power does naturally.
I agree with the proc, bonfire is grossly overpowered.
However if they make it not take universal damage sets suddenly after the fact, I am going to be rather annoyed. Find another solution.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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How about if, the proc shuts the KB and KD off completely, but every 10 seconds allows the KD to happen. This way it still prevents the scatter, but at the cost of some of the control?
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
However if they make it not take universal damage sets suddenly after the fact, I am going to be rather annoyed. Find another solution.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Bonfire without this proc is a terrible power.
So situational that it is best not taken. |
I've read a lot of comments like this about Bonfire and pretty strongly disagree. The perma-knock that people are recognizing in Bonfire was always there, it just required the right map and a strategy to lock enemies into a corner. I consider Bonfire a very, very good power and would personally never skip it except on a very specific kind of farming build. If the power had less favorable recharge and duration I could see skipping it, but in terms of slotting it's almost a freebie. I don't generally consider knockback all that great, but this power was one of the few I thought pulled it off reasonably.
The issue with the proc is it takes something that was possible only in certain situations and makes it universally applicable. But there is a reason my Blaster had Bonfire even before the proc existed. I'm not ashamed to admit that it is almost entirely because of Bonfire that my Rad/Fire/Fire Blaster was able to farm himself up from level 45 to 50 using strategies to maximize the power on narrow maps.
Sidenote if any GMs are reading, I do skip both Repel and Repulsion Field, but would be much more willing to accept then if they had Bonfire's 25ft radius. That's the approximate radius needed to cover the full size of most dead ends and conference rooms (about 50ft across).
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The thing is the knockback to knockdown functionality isn't actually a proc. The Knockback to Knockdown functionality is actually implemented by making the enhancement a Knockback Enhancement with an extremely high negative magnitude (-99%). The chance for knockdown is a proc and presumably has a caveat that chance to proc is 0% if the power already does knoackback/down.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I think the other obvious nerf is to just make the KB conversion an actual proc rather than some kind of set bonus. Make it so the KB conversion is 100% on powers that KB but, in powers that persist like toggles and passives, the conversion only occurs on 10 second tics like any other proc.
For the purpose of the proc, it should be slottable in powers that really do damage. It should also convert 100% of the KB into KD when activated. But I don't see why this proc has to function uniquely by functioning on every tic rather than after every 10 seconds. |
Here's the Enhancement:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...elming_Force_F
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That seems a reasonable compromise as well. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
How about if, the proc shuts the KB and KD off completely, but every 10 seconds allows the KD to happen. This way it still prevents the scatter, but at the cost of some of the control?
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Like was said, in simple click powers like Gale, Force Bolt, Solar Flare and in pets like Lightning Storm, Thugs, Robots, etc, there doesn't seem a shift in balance and work just fine. But some powers were designed around knockback so have to be considered separately.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I've read a lot of comments like this about Bonfire and pretty strongly disagree. The perma-knock that people are recognizing in Bonfire was always there, it just required the right map and a strategy to lock enemies into a corner. I consider Bonfire a very, very good power and would personally never skip it except on a very specific kind of farming build. If the power had less favorable recharge and duration I could see skipping it, but in terms of slotting it's almost a freebie. I don't generally consider knockback all that great, but this power was one of the few I thought pulled it off reasonably.
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I think the main point is, people want to exploit the powers as damage tools *and* mitigation tools. It'd be fair if it took planning, positioning and a combo of strategic tools and the right enemy, but this proc just makes encounters a joke...with no other effort but to slot an enhancement.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The thing is the knockback to knockdown functionality isn't actually a proc. The way the Knockback to Knockdown functionality is actually implemented by making the enhancement a Knockback Enhancement with an extremely high negative magnitude (-99%). The chance for knockdown is a proc and presumably has a caveat that chance to proc is 0% if the power already does knoackback/down.
Here's the Enhancement: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...elming_Force_F |
Beyond that, like was mentioned before, replacing persistent KB with the chance after the first pulse?
Glad this was an awarded enhancement. No one can really complain if the devs change it later since there's no buyer's remorse or any of that mess.
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It wouldn't work if you did it this way. The proc effects wouldn't happen until the power activated and the power activation would trigger the KB effect. The anti-KB effect would happen on the next activation assuming they made the duration long enough.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I think the other obvious nerf is to just make the KB conversion an actual proc rather than some kind of set bonus. Make it so the KB conversion is 100% on powers that KB but, in powers that persist like toggles and passives, the conversion only occurs on 10 second tics like any other proc.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Depends on what they do. What this IO does to Bonfire is completely foreseeable. So long as they give people a free unslotter, I'm good. But then, who knows if they really think it's worth nerfing. I could see it either way.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Glad this was an awarded enhancement. No one can really complain if the devs change it later since there's no buyer's remorse or any of that mess.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Not everyone is going to agree with you on bonfire. I certainly don't and I'm sure others dislike the KB bonfire. With the new IO Bonfire is wonderful.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I've read a lot of comments like this about Bonfire and pretty strongly disagree. The perma-knock that people are recognizing in Bonfire was always there, it just required the right map and a strategy to lock enemies into a corner. I consider Bonfire a very, very good power and would personally never skip it except on a very specific kind of farming build. If the power had less favorable recharge and duration I could see skipping it, but in terms of slotting it's almost a freebie. I don't generally consider knockback all that great, but this power was one of the few I thought pulled it off reasonably.
The issue with the proc is it takes something that was possible only in certain situations and makes it universally applicable. But there is a reason my Blaster had Bonfire even before the proc existed. I'm not ashamed to admit that it is almost entirely because of Bonfire that my Rad/Fire/Fire Blaster was able to farm himself up from level 45 to 50 using strategies to maximize the power on narrow maps. Sidenote if any GMs are reading, I do skip both Repel and Repulsion Field, but would be much more willing to accept then if they had Bonfire's 25ft radius. That's the approximate radius needed to cover the full size of most dead ends and conference rooms (about 50ft across). |
I'm sure there are people who liked the KB bonfire, however the change means more people have to make tough choices as to what to take and more choice is a good thing.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Pretty much the whole situation with bonfire was 100% avoidable and more than likely known about. I know they have had a lot of team changes through the years, but the perma-knockdown ability was removed years ago, because bonfire became the best control ever. It was better than ice slick, oil slick, earthquake and any otehr contenders. Just find a patsy with bonfire, and have them be the lowest SK on the team, fight as many people as possible and repeat. They removed the level-scaling knockback forever ago. So, it should have been no surprise that it would be that powerful with this ability. On the flipside, as someone said earlier, the pulses have always been there, and those that actually could leverage bonfire knew that. Now that there is no need to learn how to use it, it has beeen brought to light. They should just give it a flag(sadly), "XXX knockback, ignores enhancements and buffs".
And as for the more choice thing, I don't think there is a choice. If you have the capability to have bonfire and this IO, you should pick it. Bonfire's ticks are so often and lasts for so long, the -KB of most immobilizes will only conteract it if people spam it the entire time bonfire is down. That is remedied with a macro "I can perma knockdown a group, please don't use immobilizes unless you have to." I still have that one on my fire/kin from back in the day when someone told me how fighting at +5 or +6 worked. Then you get the best control all the time. even earthquake and ice slick do not pulse as much. Bonfire was made to pretty much instantly knock foes out of it over and over. And that's where we are now, only worse.
Alright, sorry about the delay. I had the video ready to go last night but Youtube wasn't playing nice and was refusing to upload anything;
Link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGy_ubh4eg
If any Devs have a problem with the music please let me know via a PM and I'll squelch it ASAP.
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One last comparison:|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Ice Slick 57% knockdown every 2 seconds*, 90 second recharge, 30 second duration
Earthquake 51% knockdown every 2 seconds*, 90 second recharge, 30 second duration Bonfire 100% every 2 seconds, 60 second recharge, 45 second duration |
Ice Slick - level 12
Earthquake - level 18
Bonfire - level 35
I realize that most people discussing this have multiple level 50s, so the concept of 'when do I get that power' doesn't really factor in, but Bonfire is basically a power that you don't get until after your main tier 9.
Reality is that it's still pretty danged good even without Overwhelming Force, in the right situations and against the right enemies. The only thing that would likely make the devs consider 'nerfing' Bonfire is if suddenly a huge number of players deliberately re-specced their characters so that Fire Mastery became the vastly most popular Epic Power Pool.
So despite everybody talking about how good this is, if everybody started actually using this power, *then* I'd expect the ban-hammer to come down.
--
Pauper
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As if the FRads could not get any more ludicrous...|
Originally Posted by Primantiss
Alright, sorry about the delay. I had the video ready to go last night but Youtube wasn't playing nice and was refusing to upload anything;
Link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGy_ubh4eg If any Devs have a problem with the music please let me know via a PM and I'll squelch it ASAP. |
You know? I just got a 2nd KB/KD IO, and was going to respec my Fire/Kin Controller to actually try Bonfire, thinking at least now it might be a tough decision to trade offense for defense (cannot really use Fire Cages if the plan is to take advantage of Bonfire's now KD).
Then I saw your video.
I am now going to wait to see what the Devs do before I use the IO on him. That was ridiculous. Bonfire -> Fire Imps (close range) -> Fulcrum Shift. GG.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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26 for Doms and Controllers.|
Originally Posted by Pauper
One last comparison:
Ice Slick - level 12 Earthquake - level 18 Bonfire - level 35 I realize that most people discussing this have multiple level 50s, so the concept of 'when do I get that power' doesn't really factor in, but Bonfire is basically a power that you don't get until after your main tier 9. -- Pauper |
Not that it matters. There's no other power that offers as much control at any tier.
I didn't read through all the pages, but here's my opinion of bonfire with the new proc: it's an absolute "I win" power to the extreme.
If you are a blaster, don't fret about having no defense or status protection if you have bonfire and this proc, as there is only one critter I have seen that can avoid its effects (boss malta zeus titans), and when that's your only concern out of a pull containing 10-12 critters then you have no worries at all. Everything else just helplessly and repeatedly flops around in the patch for 45 seconds: they don't get a chance to return fire/ TP away (gunslingers)/or really do much at all. It's one of those things you see and think "how the eff did this make it through beta???".
And this is just on a blaster, who can perma it with high enough recharge, where doms and trollers can have -two- of these out permanently. IMO when one single IO can allow a vanilla level 50 blaster to blaze through a x8 malta map without being mezzed or taking damage (this is not an exaggeration, my blaster waltzed unscathed through a malta map with this power as his only "defense") it should, for that application anyways, prob be looked at.
For those who have seen this power+proc in action, even if you don't agree it should be looked at, you have to agree that it is broken powerful in its current state.
EDIT: it's pretty wicked in RotP too, but at least for that you have to die for it to work =D
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That's exactly how it looked when it was turned to knockdown from fighting too high. Imagine doing that with a fulcrum shifted team. The only downside back in the day is that I had to respec into tactics and run double/triple acc in every power to hit with my kinetics. But if the team never gets hit, who needs accuracy in a heal?
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Originally Posted by Primantiss
Alright, sorry about the delay. I had the video ready to go last night but Youtube wasn't playing nice and was refusing to upload anything;
Link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGy_ubh4eg If any Devs have a problem with the music please let me know via a PM and I'll squelch it ASAP. |
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Originally Posted by Pauper
One last comparison:
Ice Slick - level 12 Earthquake - level 18 Bonfire - level 35 |
I didn't list that, because it's irrelevant (and wrong, on Controllers/Dominators). Powers are not balanced by the level they arrive. If they were, Sleet vs Freezing Rain wouldn't happen, and all Blast powers that are clones of each other would arrive at the same level.
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Originally Posted by ArchGemini
I am now going to wait to see what the Devs do before I use the IO on him. That was ridiculous. Bonfire -> Fire Imps (close range) -> Fulcrum Shift. GG.
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Pretty much, toss in Flashfire to trigger Containment, and you should be doing extremely good damage with very little risk to you. A fire/Kin with enough recharge should easily keep it double stacked to boot.
I did notice a very brief moment after the first one expired, that the mobs ignored KB, but it was about 1-2 seconds long and didn't pose much a problem.
If a person slotted for range, they should be able to toss this at mobs with no fear at all of being retaliated against. The KB takes place instantly, and the mobs don't even have time to open up with their Alpha, oh and it's auto-hit.. Once they are all flopping around your golden to pick them off at your leisure, so long as you remember to re-stack the Bonfire. If you want to play it uber safe, just hug a corner or stay far away while recasting Bonfire and letting your imps do the dirty work.
In the past the devs have looked down upon such easy tricks to gain rewards at virtually no risk to the participant. The old Hover-blasting of Warwolves springs to mind. Now they not only have Ranged attacks, but are brutally resistant to slows/immobs.
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Originally Posted by Primantiss
If a person slotted for range, they should be able to toss this at mobs with no fear at all of being retaliated against. The KB takes place instantly, and the mobs don't even have time to open up with their Alpha, oh and it's auto-hit..
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Toss it through a wall. Range helps with that somewhat, of course. But if you wall toss, they have no way to respond at all. You should aim for the front of the group so the rest of the enemies all walk into it, and they all end up in a big clump right on top of each other.
I actually haven't slotted this in my main blaster's Bonfire, yet, purely because I know that when the devs inevitably take it away it would just make me so sad.
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Obvious Nerf incoming is Obvious Nerf incoming.
They should change the power to not accept the IO, not anything mechanically on the power. In addition they should have it not function in already slotted bonfires.
No one should get annoyed by this, since unslotters can easily be given by the devs. Say they drop 10 unslotters on all toons and call it a day after making the changes.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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As long as they give me an unslotter I'm cool with them changing it. Anything else will be....let's just go with annoying to be nice.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Nerf coming.
They should change the power to not accept the IO, not anything mechanically on the power. In addition they should have it not function in already slotted bonfires. No one should get annoyed by this, since unslotters can easily be given by the devs. Say they drop 10 unslotters on all toons and call it a day after making the changes. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That was as amusing as I was expecting it to be.
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Originally Posted by Primantiss
Alright, sorry about the delay. I had the video ready to go last night but Youtube wasn't playing nice and was refusing to upload anything;
Link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGy_ubh4eg If any Devs have a problem with the music please let me know via a PM and I'll squelch it ASAP. |
I hope they don't change the percentage; if anything... they should just increase the activation intervals, IMO.
[...although, if they do go the 'chance to' route; it would allow Bonfire to be leveraged for damage more than it is currently (even w/o the proc)...]
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