I am thinking of reviving my Fire Dom due to Bonfire+Oppressive Force. Nerf incoming?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-01 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Would changing Earthquake/Ice Slick into 100% chance of their .67 mag KB be overpowered? I guess it would make mobs unable to fight back at all...still, I want my Crane Kick to ALWAYS knock foos into walls
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I don't think the developers would go for it.
But it's interesting to ponder because it puts Bonfire into perspective. To theorycraft for a second, I think Ice Slick and Earthquake would still be less powerful than Bonfire given the treatment you describe, assuming they still had shorter durations and longer recharges than that power. There's a small catch to this though.We'll use Ice Slick in the example because it is the patch with the highest chance to knock an enemy. It currently knocks at a rate of 8% percent chance every 0.2 seconds--that's about the same as 10 times per 2 seconds, or 10 times as fast as Bonfire. If we were up that to 100% chance every 0.2 seconds it would seem to do more, at first glance.
The catch is that in terms of mitigation knockdown has a set animation time and a period during which the enemy is immune to another knock. Knocking at a rate of 10 times per 2 seconds is mostly meaningless if most of the re-knocks fire while the enemy is still on its butt. As long as the next knock is applied during the period when the enemy is disabled but vulnerable to the next knock, then its good enough for perma knockdown. Bonfire demonstrates that it can reapply at this rate. So, effectively, a 100% knock every 2 seconds is close to the same in power as a knock 10 times every 2 seconds.
Like I said there is a (possibly minor, possibly not) exception. At a rate of 10 ticks per second with 100% chance, any new enemy that enters the area would fall over almost immediately. With Bonfire, it could possibly take up to 2 seconds for the enemy to fall, depending on when the knock last pulse happened. Most of us have experienced this with Bonfire in the past with enemies who sometimes seem able to race across it before being knocked back.
The comment below refers to the current version of Ice Slick with the 8% chance to knock, not the theorized 100% version
Note that it is technically possible, but not likely, to get very slightly better performance out of the current Ice Slick. Than the buffed Bonfire. However,this is a very limited situation. I present only so we can see how patch powers typically work.
Here's the stipulation: if an enemy that wasn't on the slick previously moves onto it, there is a chance it will fall within 0.2 seconds. With Bonfire, it could taken up to 2 seconds for knock to to happen.
This isn't a full win for Ice Slick though. Note that any enemy that is vulnerable to knock absolutely WILL fall at the 2 second mark in Bonfire, while there is just slightly more than half that chance of that happening by the 2 second mark with Ice Slick. Track the average number of knocks for just 10 seconds, and Ice Slick is dismally behind Bonfire.
(Strategy note if you want something practical to take into the game: Everything described above is why, with the current version of Ice Slick, its ideal to wait about 2 seconds after casting from behind an obstacle to emerge and attack. On the first tick of Ice Slick, you knockdown about 8% of the mob. But as the power keeps ticking, it knocks more and more enemies down. It finally reaches a saturation point when the enemies have been under the effects of the power approximately for the duration of the knockdown animation. I use this to estimate that during its peak period Ice Slick will disable approximately 57% of a mob, although at specific moments that value will vary.
Bonfire achieves saturation of 100% immediately after it lands. Other than the fact that it casts and travels slower than Ice Slick, by the time enemies are aware of it they are caught.
Strategy note 2: if being really crafty, cast so the power only hits the guys at the front. They get slowed and have an escalating chance to fall. Everyone else runs in behind them, hits the patch, and end up stuck behind the people who fell in front of them. This works with the new Bonfire to an extent as well, and will cause some enemy groups to gather up very tightly as the unhindered baddies clump up against the ones you disabled.)
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Hah, I've been using that strategy with practically any movement hindering patches for a long time. It works pretty well with Snow Storm, Quicksand and the like so long as you don't leave ones self out of aggro range/out of LoS otherwise it triggers the AI's 'avoid' code and they start running the other way to escape the patch instead.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Strategy note 2: if being really crafty, cast so the power only hits the guys at the front. They get slowed and have an escalating chance to fall. Everyone else runs in behind them, hits the patch, and end up stuck behind the people who fell in front of them. This works with the new Bonfire to an extent as well, and will cause some enemy groups to gather up very tightly as the unhindered baddies clump up against the ones you disabled.)
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i for one am glad that they have given bonfire and tornado more of a purpose again
i hated the insane kb they both did (the 2 fire control toons i ran never picked bonfire and the storm toon i have only uses tornado with kb immune baddies)
with this i actually want to play my storm more and im looking forward to starting a fire control toon again
if the pulse duration was changed so it would more closely resemble the other kd patches then i could potentially see that happening and would be perfectly fine with that, i mainly use the enhancement to get rid of the kb
my view on KB is i HATE it in aoe powers, but can be very useful in single target powers
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hah, I've been using that strategy with practically any movement hindering patches for a long time. It works pretty well with Snow Storm, Quicksand and the like so long as you don't leave ones self out of aggro range/out of LoS otherwise it triggers the AI's 'avoid' code and they start running the other way to escape the patch instead.
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Interesting. I don't seem to have that issue with Ice Slick. The enemies are content to run across it even with Rain of Fire pouring down over it. I mainly mention the strategy because I often see people getting frustrated because they want to include the whole mob under the slick, when its properties (big slow and highish chance for knockdown) often work best just tagging a few enemies near the front.
It's a bit different on teams, of course.
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Sorry, just had a thought and haven't logged into the game to watch someone else's Bonfire...|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Bonfire achieves saturation of 100% immediately after it lands. Other than the fact that it casts and travels slower than Ice Slick, by the time enemies are aware of it they are caught.
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Does this mean that things flop around in unison? That is, when on Bonfire, everything slips up like a practiced choreographed action?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Sorry, just had a thought and haven't logged into the game to watch someone else's Bonfire...
Does this mean that things flop around in unison? That is, when on Bonfire, everything slips up like a practiced choreographed action? |
Yes, sort of. Have you ever been in a group where there are 3 or 4 Slicks or Quakes going on at once and the enemies just seem to "bounce" in place? It
It looks similar to that, except if a new enemy walks onto the patch, it hesitates very briefly and then falls.
It has occurred to me that I might be able to exploit this to find out the exact duration of the knockdown animation and the size of the vulnerability window. Unless someone happens to know already. I've asked a lot over the years but no one has coughed up numbers.
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Well in the instances I was talking about, it's probably over half a minute or something. I mean, I've dropped like 3+ Quicksand patches on a foe to the point their movement is probably floored and since stuff like that isn't a huge aggro-grabber, if they can't actually attack me (the caster) they'll run away instead.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Interesting. I don't seem to have that issue with Ice Slick. The enemies are content to run across it even with Rain of Fire pouring down over it. I mainly mention the strategy because I often see people getting frustrated because they want to include the whole mob under the slick, when its properties (big slow and highish chance for knockdown) often work best just tagging a few enemies near the front.
It's a bit different on teams, of course. |
This happens a lot with multiple Quicksands and occasionally on recharge debuffed foes stuck in Snow Storm. If they can't act, they usually run.
And yeah, the only good time to place an ice patch/earthquake in the very center of a mob of foes is if you have some point of aggro that is there to draw/keep them there. It requires coordination with the tank though but even then, that generally lessens the utility of those knockdown patches as alpha-mitigators.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Yes, sort of. Have you ever been in a group where there are 3 or 4 Slicks or Quakes going on at once and the enemies just seem to "bounce" in place? It
It looks similar to that, except if a new enemy walks onto the patch, it hesitates very briefly and then falls. It has occurred to me that I might be able to exploit this to find out the exact duration of the knockdown animation and the size of the vulnerability window. Unless someone happens to know already. I've asked a lot over the years but no one has coughed up numbers. |
The way you describe Bonfire, sounds more like the spawn doing 'the wave' but at the same time
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
The way you describe Bonfire, sounds more like the spawn doing 'the wave' but at the same time
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Sort of, yeah. Bonfire is just a pet with Repulsion Field + damage.
Another way to think of it is like if the pseudo pet were using an "activated" power like Fault or Repulsion Bomb over and over and over. The enemies all fall to the ground at the same time, just the like when they all get hit by the same AoE knock.
I guess we will find out eventually.
The worst thing they could do is "grandfather" people who slotted it already and not allow people to slot it.
Bonfire and Tornado are not all that great with the KB and mostly skippable, but with KD they are must takes. I think the devs want people to take more powersets and less pool powers.
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Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
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It's actually interesting.
Bonfire went from the most skipped power in Fire Control, to the most powerful control available to it.
I expect this to be tweaked once the devs realize how overpowered it becomes with the KB->KD proc. I actually have the feeling they kind of overlooked this application.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
As far as I'm aware, all versions of Bonfire and Tornado reference the same two pets.
A very easy way to reduce the effectiveness of this IO in those just those two pets without nerfing them or the IO would be to add a tag to each of their KB effects, called "ForceIO". That way, the power would function exactly the same as it always has until the IO was slotted.
Then, they would just need to add the corresponding effect to the Overwhelming Force proc that said, for example: -50% to all effects tagged ForceIO.
This would reduce the chance the KB would occur in both powers down to 50% while the IO was slotted, without affecting:
A) Either power for anyone without the IO slotted.
OR
B) The usefulness of the IO in any other power.
50% might still be too high, but it would be easy for the Devs to adjust because it's just a single line in the Overwhelming Force proc that they'd need to tweak.
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This seems like a great compromise
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
As far as I'm aware, all versions of Bonfire and Tornado reference the same two pets.
A very easy way to reduce the effectiveness of this IO in those just those two pets without nerfing them or the IO would be to add a tag to each of their KB effects, called "ForceIO". That way, the power would function exactly the same as it always has until the IO was slotted. Then, they would just need to add the corresponding effect to the Overwhelming Force proc that said, for example: -50% to all effects tagged ForceIO. This would reduce the chance the KB would occur in both powers down to 50% while the IO was slotted, without affecting: A) Either power for anyone without the IO slotted. OR B) The usefulness of the IO in any other power. 50% might still be too high, but it would be easy for the Devs to adjust because it's just a single line in the Overwhelming Force proc that they'd need to tweak. |
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Didn't they make a fix to Bonfire at some point because of an exploit application? I'm sure they'll fix it at some point, maybe around the time the set goes live to Auction House.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's actually interesting.
Bonfire went from the most skipped power in Fire Control, to the most powerful control available to it. I expect this to be tweaked once the devs realize how overpowered it becomes with the KB->KD proc. I actually have the feeling they kind of overlooked this application. |
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Man, Zombie Man with another outside of the box suggestion. I don't think it goes far enough. How about every time an enemy is knocked down by bonfire or tornado their current HP and max HP are multiplied by 1.1?
I went ahead.
Yeah bonfire is absolutely nuts, and it should never have gone live like this.
Reducing the KD rate by 50% would be appropriate, but please do not add back the KB!
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How does it compare to Oil Slick Arrow? I've never used Bonfire. The stated recharge seems faster than OSA from what I recall (been a while since I've played a TA character too for that matter). It just sounds like a possibly more damaging, faster recharging OSA? So, if anything gets adjusted knock it into line with OSA (maybe a little faster recharge or a little better damage- since it takes a special IO to make it equal to OSA).
Just my thoughts.
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bonfire is simple with this proc:|
Originally Posted by Valorin
How does it compare to Oil Slick Arrow? I've never used Bonfire. The stated recharge seems faster than OSA from what I recall (been a while since I've played a TA character too for that matter). It just sounds like a possibly more damaging, faster recharging OSA? So, if anything gets adjusted knock it into line with OSA (maybe a little faster recharge or a little better damage- since it takes a special IO to make it equal to OSA).
Just my thoughts. |
* 100% chance of perma knockdown for any mob not immune. They never fight back
* is perma'd. So you have this every fight and can recast in fights
* does autohit damage, a lot of it over time, which since they can't move all hits them
* can be cast from out of LoS
I think the fix is to lower the pulse rate so enemies get a chance to fightback
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What it sounds like to me is the patch shouldn't keep foes inside it perma or it should not be stackable or the effects should not be auto hit or the damage shouldn't be as significant our a combination of some of those.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
bonfire is simple with this proc:
* 100% chance of perma knockdown for any mob not immune. They never fight back * is perma'd. So you have this every fight and can recast in fights * does autohit damage, a lot of it over time, which since they can't move all hits them * can be cast from out of LoS I think the fix is to lower the pulse rate so enemies get a chance to fightback |
What it sounds like is people are making these powers significant damage tools while exploiting control features not meant to be casually tossed about.
While I'm passive about the whole KB>KD IO, that so many attempt to defend a blatant exploit and guise it as a compromise makes me shake my head.
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The problem with this is that it lowers the viability of Bonfire without the proc, basically a nerf for a power that was previously difficult to leverage making the enhancement even more desirable. That's hardly the direction the change should go, in my opinion. If any change is to be made, it needs to be made to the enhancement itself.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
bonfire is simple with this proc:
* 100% chance of perma knockdown for any mob not immune. They never fight back * is perma'd. So you have this every fight and can recast in fights * does autohit damage, a lot of it over time, which since they can't move all hits them * can be cast from out of LoS I think the fix is to lower the pulse rate so enemies get a chance to fightback |
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
What it sounds like to me is the patch shouldn't keep foes inside it perma or it should not be stackable or the effects should not be auto hit or the damage shouldn't be as significant our a combination of some of those.
What it sounds like is people are making these powers significant damage tools while exploiting control features not meant to be casually tossed about. While I'm passive about the whole KB>KD IO, that so many attempt to defend a blatant exploit and guise it as a compromise makes me shake my head. |
It's almost like some of us predicted this exact scenario months ago. At least now I know the devs have me on ignore so I can get right to posting all those saucy images I have lined up.
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(sigh)|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It's almost like some of us predicted this exact scenario months ago. At least now I know the devs have me on ignore so I can get right to posting all those saucy images I have lined up.
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Ok, I see a lot of "OMG THIS IS TOO GUD" posted in here.
I don't see anybody running numbers.
How does bonfire slotted with this proc compare to a whole bunch of other dot powers?
Try, ice patch, rain of fire, and blizzard, for instance. How does it compare? Really?
I have to say it is a bit overpowered now, glad I don't have to figure that out. I took my Firex3 PermaDom on a AE cave farm +4/x8 and bonfire just made it too easy. Yes I still had to pop some purples and had some trouble on those that bonfire missed, but it made it easy.
Not as easy as my fire brute, but I would love to see the numbers on fiery embrace + bonfire, hotfeet, rain of fire and fireball could put out.
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I don't have personal experience with Bonfire, but I don't think it's brokenation has anything to do with numbers. It's the fact that once you drop it, everything in range just bounces in place for the duration of the power, and it's easy to perma with minimal recharge slotting. It's not comparable with those other DoT patch powers, because it's bonfire's specific mechanics, the fast-ticking repeating KB effect, that makes it good, not its damage.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
(sigh)
Ok, I see a lot of "OMG THIS IS TOO GUD" posted in here. I don't see anybody running numbers. How does bonfire slotted with this proc compare to a whole bunch of other dot powers? Try, ice patch, rain of fire, and blizzard, for instance. How does it compare? Really? |
Thats a good point Tex. When I was taking my dp/mm blaster through the DA arcs, on my own, I actually found myself running standard ammo a LOT..just to keep mobs on their ***.