I am thinking of reviving my Fire Dom due to Bonfire+Oppressive Force. Nerf incoming?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-01 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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But you generally find KB to be so disadvantageous it will neutralize the advantage of any power for which there exists an alternative. There's nothing about Bonfire that is particularly special in that regard.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Not at all. It's simply that the KB makes the power so situational, that I can always find something else that would be more useful in a build.
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Back when I was playing round robin with the epic pools, because I had nothing to do with freespecs, I took bonfire to act as a keep away power. Because I intended it to be a keep away power, there was no power more useful to take at that time.
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If I understand the Bonfire change, in essence it has picked up an identical knock rate of Sleet or Freezing Rain, just with a different tick rate. Each of those powers knocks at a rate of 5% chance 5 times per second, so in Bonfire's 2 second interval we get:
1-(0.95^10) ~= 0.40 (or about 40% chance)
Far more balanced. It's still a big buff to Fire Control (and to my Blaster) but I guess that's okay. I just hope there is something we haven't seen yet waiting in the wings for Ice Control. It also feels "wrong" to me somehow that Gravity is missing out on all the knockback to knockdown goodness, but that's a fight for another day. If there was a control set in need of a new knockdown patch IMO it was Gravity and not Fire.
Note that Liquefy, at 3% chance to knockdown, is actually pretty far behind. It's a 3% chance, so 1-(.97^10) = 26% chance to knockdown within Bonfire's interval. Liquefy also has the -ToHit and a (pretty terrible) damage component, but could really use a buff due to its extreme recharge. But again, a fight for another day, along with a few other powers in Sonic.
[EDIT: Note that because of how easily Bonfire stacks on itself, it is still very competive and probably better than Ice Slick if the fight lasts long enough.]
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That's exactly correct. |
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Wait, so the changes to the proc are as follows...it will still convert all the KB to KD it will just have only a 40% chance to KD instead of 100%? Great! I'm perfectly fine with that
 as long as the power no longer causes KB when the Proc is slotted.That Keeps the proc from being useless in those two powers . |
it'll still be awesomebrownies in those powers... they are just taking out the "special" ingredient to the brownies... in the end they will still be delicious... you just won't get the munchies later ~_^
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Ice Slick also has 5% chance to knockdown every 0.2 second, which amounts to a 40% chance every 2 seconds.
This doesn't seem right still, Bonfire goes from being "Better than Ice Slick with damage" to "Ice Slick with damage".
In contrast, Ice Slick with a damage proc will do nowhere near the same amount of damage as Bonfire.
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Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Ice Slick also has 5% chance to knockdown every 0.2 second, which amounts to a 40% chance every 2 seconds.
This doesn't seem right still, Bonfire goes from being "Better than Ice Slick with damage" to "Ice Slick with damage". In contrast, Ice Slick with a damage proc will do nowhere near the same amount of damage as Bonfire. |
It's actually 8% Ice Slick, for a total of 57%.
But the recharge and duration of Ice Slick are much less favorable. Ice Slick still needs a buff.
I would personally have put Bonfire at 27% chance of Knockdown, which would tie it with powers with the lowest rates (Liqeufy mainly) and not let Bonfire self stack as easily.
I'm very happy with this result.
Hmm, now to fit bonfire, the snipe, and blazing aura back into my Fire^3 blaster ...
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Ice Slick also slows movement and (IIRC) applies a -fly debuff. By itself, it's a better control than (post-proc-nerf) Bonfire.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
This doesn't seem right still, Bonfire goes from being "Better than Ice Slick with damage" to "Ice Slick with damage".
In contrast, Ice Slick with a damage proc will do nowhere near the same amount of damage as Bonfire. |
(Also IIRC, Ice Slick doesn't accept procs. At least the Controller version didn't, the last time I checked. Given that Earthquake does accept procs, Ice Slick's lack in that area has annoyed me for some time.)
Still, you're right: a set like Fire Control probably doesn't deserve to get a near equivalent to Ice Slick for the cost of one IO. Hell, if all we're concerned with is the comparison between Fire Control and Ice Control, the former probably doesn't deserve anything at all.
But the KB-to-KD proc isn't limited to Controllers and Dominators. If a Blaster wants to grab some extra control out of a procced Bonfire, or if a Storm Defender wants to turn Tornado into a consistently viable attack power -- it's hard to conceive of an objection to either of those two scenarios. The devs' proposed fix to the proc is, I think, the best possible solution to an unwieldy problem.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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There's an oddity with Ice Slick vs Bonfire I hadnt thought of until just now.
Knockdown is weird. At least based on the visuals, there is a period after a knockdown where the enemy is immune to another knock. What this means for Ice Slick is that although it has a ~57% chance to knockdown a standing opponent, opponents who slip and fall have a lowered chance to fall again, because they are immune to some of the knock pulses while they are down.
If that period of immunity is one second (thats the value I've tended to assume in the past), then Ice Slick's actual knock rate over time is reduced by about 30% (I'm too lazy to compute it exactly), to right around 40% total.
Bonfire avoids this issue entirely. Because of the timing of the knockdown, the enemy is never immune to the next pulse. Its full rate of knockdown is always in effect, unlike any patch that ticks faster.
So, yeah, Fire Control really did just pick up Ice Slick with damage, better recharge, and longer duration, more or less.
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Bonfire can also hit 16 enemies at once, compared to Ice Slick's 10. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
There's an oddity with Ice Slick vs Bonfire I hadnt thought of until just now.
Knockdown is weird. At least based on the visuals, there is a period after a knockdown where the enemy is immune to another knock. What this means for Ice Slick is that although it has a ~57% chance to knockdown a standing opponent, opponents who slip and fall have a lowered chance to fall again, because they are immune to some of the knock pulses while they are down. If that period of immunity is one second (thats the value I've tended to assume in the past), then Ice Slick's actual knock rate over time is reduced by about 30% (I'm too lazy to compute it exactly), to right around 40% total. Bonfire avoids this issue entirely. Because of the timing of the knockdown, the enemy is never immune to the next pulse. Its full rate of knockdown is always in effect, unlike any patch that ticks faster. So, yeah, Fire Control really did just pick up Ice Slick with damage, better recharge, and longer duration, more or less. |
Ice Control has needed buffs for awhile, hopefully this spurs someone in to reviewing it.
I think that we can all agree that Ice control will see some love...hopefully before the year is out.
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HA! That did make me chuckle quite a bit! lol
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
That's exactly correct.
it'll still be awesomebrownies in those powers... they are just taking out the "special" ingredient to the brownies... in the end they will still be delicious... you just won't get the munchies later ~_^ |
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Hope so - worst control set ever.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I think that we can all agree that Ice control will see some love...hopefully before the year is out.
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Well, I'm glad they have decided a reasonable path to fixing this issue. If they had nerfed it completely I would have dropped bonfire for sleet. I wouldn't have been upset, just annoyed at respecing.
This looks good, though they really need to buff Iceslick now, it needs 16 targets and maybe a minor damage effect. I like the idea of Iceslick doing little chunks of damage each time someone falls down and hits their head. 
DM/Elec brute, 50
Ice/Psi dom, 50
Crab, 50
Elec/WP Scrapper, 50
TW/WP Scrapper, 50
Robot/Trap MM, 50
Fire/Earth dom, 50
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... You aren't using Sleet? That's one of the most overpowered abilities in the game.
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Originally Posted by Beerkeg
Well, I'm glad they have decided a reasonable path to fixing this issue. If they had nerfed it completely I would have dropped bonfire for sleet. I wouldn't have been upset, just annoyed at respecing.
This looks good, though they really need to buff Iceslick now, it needs 16 targets and maybe a minor damage effect. I like the idea of Iceslick doing little chunks of damage each time someone falls down and hits their head. |
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Sleet aka Freezing Rain? Sleet/freezing rain is soooo good. As a matter of fact, in my opinion, freezing rain is the best power in Storm Control.
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Originally Posted by Beerkeg
Well, I'm glad they have decided a reasonable path to fixing this issue. If they had nerfed it completely I would have dropped bonfire for sleet.
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I know Sleet is epic, I'm just enjoying Leap attack for now. I am using snowstorm, and I'm considering dropping Leap attack.
I really enjoy the teleport effect and the looks. As a fire/earth, Teleporting into melee is nice. Besides, It's not like I can't burn through a spawn in moments anyway as it is, fun is certainly a reason to choose a power.
DM/Elec brute, 50
Ice/Psi dom, 50
Crab, 50
Elec/WP Scrapper, 50
TW/WP Scrapper, 50
Robot/Trap MM, 50
Fire/Earth dom, 50
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It's a ''Does not stack from same caster'' deal - my Fire/Ice Tanker can and HAS double stacked Ice Patch and knocked enemies across the room.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
There's an oddity with Ice Slick vs Bonfire I hadnt thought of until just now.
Knockdown is weird. At least based on the visuals, there is a period after a knockdown where the enemy is immune to another knock. What this means for Ice Slick is that although it has a ~57% chance to knockdown a standing opponent, opponents who slip and fall have a lowered chance to fall again, because they are immune to some of the knock pulses while they are down. If that period of immunity is one second (thats the value I've tended to assume in the past), then Ice Slick's actual knock rate over time is reduced by about 30% (I'm too lazy to compute it exactly), to right around 40% total. Bonfire avoids this issue entirely. Because of the timing of the knockdown, the enemy is never immune to the next pulse. Its full rate of knockdown is always in effect, unlike any patch that ticks faster. So, yeah, Fire Control really did just pick up Ice Slick with damage, better recharge, and longer duration, more or less. |
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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That's not true at all. As much as it annoyed me I took Solar Flare on my Peacebringer because it was the least bad option or AoE in my estimation. Any combination of Fire Control character, Dominator or Controller will have a better alternative IMO than Bonfire.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But you generally find KB to be so disadvantageous it will neutralize the advantage of any power for which there exists an alternative. There's nothing about Bonfire that is particularly special in that regard.
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A 'keep away' power in a set with good controls doesn't strike me as particularly useful no matter the mechanic. Going back to Solar Flare, it's a high order PBAoE KB power, but it also does decent damage. Solo it was more annoying than problematic. On teams it required a bit more fiddling. Bonfire was different. I took it originally on my Fire Controller, but easily found other powers that I would have preferred to have after using the power a bit.
It's useful, but its uses are minimal. Please don't presume to tell me what I think about a particular issue. Just accept that my opinion is what it is.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I am pretty sure you simply restated exactly what Arcanaville said. I do not think she misrepresented your position at all. Perhaps you misread what she wrote?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's useful, but its uses are minimal. Please don't presume to tell me what I think about a particular issue. Just accept that my opinion is what it is.
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This statement you made here:
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
As much as it annoyed me I took Solar Flare on my Peacebringer because it was the least bad option or AoE in my estimation. Any combination of Fire Control character, Dominator or Controller will have a better alternative IMO than Bonfire.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But you generally find KB to be so disadvantageous it will neutralize the advantage of any power for which there exists an alternative.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Re-read what you just posted because it doesn't support your contention. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am pretty sure you simply restated exactly what Arcanaville said. I do not think she misrepresented your position at all. Perhaps you misread what she wrote?
This statement you made here: is equivalent to: |
Arcanaville said that "But you generally find KB to be so disadvantageous it will neutralize the advantage of any power for which there exists an alternative." Arcanaville is saying where I have an option between a power with KB and without KB I will take the power without KB every (or at least most) times because I hate KB so much.
That's provably incorrect.
Examples:
My Bane Spider took both the AoE blasts even though they do KB and even though I had the option to take Venom Grenade and Heavy Burst.
My Peacebringer took Radiant Strike and hasn't taken Incandescent Strike, even though the latter does Knockdown (and a hold and more damage). I specifically took Radiant Strike BECAUSE it has knockback.
What Arcanaville and now you did is assume that because I argue strongly against Knockback generally that I am predisposed against Bonfire simply because its a KB power. The fact is that you can't simply use my forum posts to divine my build strategies. That's all I'm saying. I would have had no problem if Arcanaville or you had simply asked me whether I am predisposed not to like Bonfire because it has KB. But instead, you all try to play this silly 'GOTCHA' forum game.
My opinion is that Bonfire with the KB simply is too situational to put in a Fire Control Build. Of course, people did it anyway and got what enjoyment out of the power that they did. But there is always an opportunity cost in this game to taking a power. And in that specific case, I believe one could always make an argument for another power. Specific to Bonfire. I don't think that's true of every set with Knockback powers. I don't believe that because I have a general dislike of Knockback. I believe it because I have considered the question, used Bonfire without the proc, and found it wanting.
EDIT: This is my last post on this tangent. It's off-topic. If you all want to tell me more about how I think, I'll discuss it with you in PM.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I think that is still pretty potent and yet much more balanced.
That Keeps the proc from being useless in those two powers