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I am thinking of reviving my Fire Dom due to Bonfire+Oppressive Force. Nerf incoming?

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-01 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
It's almost like some of us predicted this exact scenario months ago. At least now I know the devs have me on ignore so I can get right to posting all those saucy images I have lined up.
Perhaps the devs are fully aware how broken the proc is in Bonfire, but since Overwhelming Force is only available in limited quantities for a short period of time, they just don't care? I mean, in the grand scheme of things, will this proc really be ubiquitous enough to have a significant impact on game balance?

 

Posted

Well, I hope someone chimes in with actual numbers but from looking at CoD...

Bonfire on a Controller deals 5.5 points of fire dmg every 2 seconds for 45 seconds so 22 tics = 121 dmg over a 45 second period. It recharges in 60 seconds so can easily be perma'ed. I have no experience with Bonfire as I have no Fire control characters so I don't know if one can summon 2 or more at once or what effect that would have on the knockback.

Comparatively, Controller Oil Slick Arrow, when ignited, deals 3.3 points of fire dmg ever 0.2 seconds for 30 seconds but only as long as you ignite it immediately. It's been a while since I played my TA/A defender so I'm unsure if the resulting fire lasts for 30 seconds or the remaining duration of the oil slick. Anyway, OSA would tic 150 times and deal 450 points of damage. OSA also recharges in 3 minutes. Technically, that's 150 dmg per minute.

Since Controllers don't get Rain of Fire, I'll look up Blaster RoF. It lasts 15 seconds and deals 1.7 points of fire dmg ever .2 seconds so 75 tics = 127 points of fire dmg. This is over 15 seconds though compared to BF's 45. RoF also recharges in 60 seconds.

Nobody mentioned it but, Controller Tornado 6.6 smashing dmg every .5 seconds for 30 seconds. The damage doesn't occur for the first second so 29 seconds. That's 58 tics of damage = 382 points of smashing damage. I do have experience with tornado and it is very possible to have 2 out at once...possibly even 3 with enough recharge I'd assume. Also, mind you, Tornado is mobile and can follow targets or move to new targets when it kills the ones near it but can only hit 5 targets at a time.

I don't see the point in comparing this to Ice Patch or Earthquake. It's already been demonstrated that the new IO slotted can make BF superior in mitigation to IP and EQ by completely shutting down foes within a 25ft radius that isn't resistant to KB up to 16 targets.

I wouldn't bother comparing anything to Blizzard. Blizzard is a nuke and has it's own balancing criteria.

From the rough calculations (that could be wrong), the way I see it, this IO makes certain powers outperform other similar powers with no discernable reason other than "I got this uberzpeshul IO". Unless you consider that a viable excuse, it's obvious this is not right.

 

Posted

This proc would be even more desired if it worked properly. I'm waiting for the fix.

Can you imagine Caltrops with the Ragna. Chance for KD proc mixed with the Over proc? What a 40-50% chance for Knockdown? And you can get almost 3 out at the same time.

It will be glorious.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Well, I hope someone chimes in with actual numbers but from looking at CoD...

Bonfire on a Controller deals 5.5 points of fire dmg every 2 seconds for 45 seconds so 22 tics = 121 dmg over a 45 second period. It recharges in 60 seconds so can easily be perma'ed. I have no experience with Bonfire as I have no Fire control characters so I don't know if one can summon 2 or more at once or what effect that would have on the knockback.

Comparatively, Controller Oil Slick Arrow, when ignited, deals 3.3 points of fire dmg ever 0.2 seconds for 30 seconds but only as long as you ignite it immediately. It's been a while since I played my TA/A defender so I'm unsure if the resulting fire lasts for 30 seconds or the remaining duration of the oil slick. Anyway, OSA would tic 150 times and deal 450 points of damage. OSA also recharges in 3 minutes. Technically, that's 150 dmg per minute.

Since Controllers don't get Rain of Fire, I'll look up Blaster RoF. It lasts 15 seconds and deals 1.7 points of fire dmg ever .2 seconds so 75 tics = 127 points of fire dmg. This is over 15 seconds though compared to BF's 45. RoF also recharges in 60 seconds.

Nobody mentioned it but, Controller Tornado 6.6 smashing dmg every .5 seconds for 30 seconds. The damage doesn't occur for the first second so 29 seconds. That's 58 tics of damage = 382 points of smashing damage. I do have experience with tornado and it is very possible to have 2 out at once...possibly even 3 with enough recharge I'd assume. Also, mind you, Tornado is mobile and can follow targets or move to new targets when it kills the ones near it but can only hit 5 targets at a time.

I don't see the point in comparing this to Ice Patch or Earthquake. It's already been demonstrated that the new IO slotted can make BF superior in mitigation to IP and EQ by completely shutting down foes within a 25ft radius that isn't resistant to KB up to 16 targets.

I wouldn't bother comparing anything to Blizzard. Blizzard is a nuke and has it's own balancing criteria.

From the rough calculations (that could be wrong), the way I see it, this IO makes certain powers outperform other similar powers with no discernable reason other than "I got this uberzpeshul IO". Unless you consider that a viable excuse, it's obvious this is not right.
Oil Slick's Fire lasts 15 seconds, not 30, and it will burn the full 15 seconds even if you light Oil Slick at the last second.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

 

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Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
Is a nerf coming to this something that I should worry about and change my plans based on?
Magic 8-Ball says "What, do I look like a dev?"

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Originally Posted by RevolverMike View Post
The only way I could see this happening is if they remove the ability to slot damage sets into bonfire. Which I dont think they would do.
It's easier than that. All you need to do is remove the ability to slot UNIVERSAL DAMAGE SETS. Then you're done. That's what I expect they will do. Let's see how they deal with folks who have already slotted one though.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Change its KB to Fear/-Morale.
Flag on the play: Cottage Rule Violation

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Personally, I'd have hoped they'd look into means of making KB more attractive too rather than just ways to remove it wholesale.
That ship has sailed. KB's reputation with a large amount of the playerbase is shot. Nothing that the devs would reasonable add is likely to change that. I think the power we're actually discussing proves conclusively that KB is inferior to KD in MOST (read not all) applications.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
That ship has sailed. KB's reputation with a large amount of the playerbase is shot. Nothing that the devs would reasonable add is likely to change that. I think the power we're actually discussing proves conclusively that KB is inferior to KD in MOST (read not all) applications.
I don't think KD is superior to KB.

If you think about it, Tornado and Bonfire can provide significant mitigation by denying the affected foes the ability to attack back. Before this IO, this has always been true, but for the situations where those powers could not do their primary function, it was compensated...

I have no experience with Bonfire, but my gut tells me, for Fire Control, Bonfire was primarily a mid-mitigation tool on a set with moderate crowd control outside of the standard CC fare. But in the situations with fairly low mitigation (read: when AoE immobilizes are used which don't really mitigate much), Bonfire is compensated for with damage because that's what 'fire' does.

Same with Tornado. It can wreck multiple spawns and pull your buns out of the fire when Hurricane, Lightning Storm, Snow Storm and Freezing Rain aren't cutting it. However, in the situations where their mitigation cannot be relied upon, it's compensated for with damage.

It's not that KB is inferior, it's that in the situations that KB cannot help, the devs balanced some powers like these with damage. This new IO, however, throws off that balance. Either a change in direction with how these powers function is required (I wouldn't want that) or this IO needs another looking at.

 

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Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
This proc would be even more desired if it worked properly. I'm waiting for the fix.

Can you imagine Caltrops with the Ragna. Chance for KD proc mixed with the Over proc? What a 40-50% chance for Knockdown? And you can get almost 3 out at the same time.

It will be glorious.
Dude hush...

so says M0NG0 Slade... Thugs/Traps MM ( who already has the Rag proc slotted )

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
(sigh)

Ok, I see a lot of "OMG THIS IS TOO GUD" posted in here.

I don't see anybody running numbers.

How does bonfire slotted with this proc compare to a whole bunch of other dot powers?

Try, ice patch, rain of fire, and blizzard, for instance. How does it compare? Really?

We have been posting numbers in various threads.


Ice Slick 57% knockdown every 2 seconds*, 90 second recharge, 30 second duration
Earthquake 51% knockdown every 2 seconds*, 90 second recharge, 30 second duration
Bonfire 100% every 2 seconds, 60 second recharge, 45 second duration


*Actual value somewhat lower but unknowable. There is a period after a knockdown where an enemy is immune to another knockdown. 57% and 51% are the chance to fall within the first 2 seconds of the power, actual number of enemies down at any point during the power is probably about 1/2 to 1/3 of that. So, more likely around 30% and 27% or so, to Bonfire's 100%.

All of this is already in this thread, just not presented in this way.

Whatever the case, it definitely doesn't take reading numbers to see this proc is too good in this power. It's perma knockdown, it's been removed from other powers in the past, and it's properties are already fairly well known.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
This proc would be even more desired if it worked properly. I'm waiting for the fix.

Can you imagine Caltrops with the Ragna. Chance for KD proc mixed with the Over proc? What a 40-50% chance for Knockdown? And you can get almost 3 out at the same time.

It will be glorious.

To find the chance of at least one proc working, start with the chance of each not firing and multiply them together.

I think they both have a 20% chance to fire (which is a 80% chance to not fire). (If that number is wrong, adjust and apply the same math below.)

0.80 x 0.80 = 0.64, or 64% chance to not fire.

If it didn't not fire, that means at least one fired. Therefor, there is a 36% chance at least one fires.


There is also a chance BOTH will fire on the same enemy. To get that we just multiply the chances together. 0.20 x 0.20 = 4% chance both fire. It matters in this case because if both fire, the resulting knockdown becomes a knockback.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I don't think KD is superior to KB.

If you think about it, Tornado and Bonfire can provide significant mitigation by denying the affected foes the ability to attack back. Before this IO, this has always been true, but for the situations where those powers could not do their primary function, it was compensated...

I have no experience with Bonfire, but my gut tells me, for Fire Control, Bonfire was primarily a mid-mitigation tool on a set with moderate crowd control outside of the standard CC fare. But in the situations with fairly low mitigation (read: when AoE immobilizes are used which don't really mitigate much), Bonfire is compensated for with damage because that's what 'fire' does.

Same with Tornado. It can wreck multiple spawns and pull your buns out of the fire when Hurricane, Lightning Storm, Snow Storm and Freezing Rain aren't cutting it. However, in the situations where their mitigation cannot be relied upon, it's compensated for with damage.

It's not that KB is inferior, it's that in the situations that KB cannot help, the devs balanced some powers like these with damage. This new IO, however, throws off that balance. Either a change in direction with how these powers function is required (I wouldn't want that) or this IO needs another looking at.
At least in my opinion KD >>> KB There are a few cases where KB can be better, but for most of the game situations, I'll take KD.

That makes KD superior to KB to me anyways.

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Originally Posted by newchemicals View Post
At least in my opinion KD >>> KB There are a few cases where KB can be better, but for most of the game situations, I'll take KD.

That makes KD superior to KB to me anyways.
To give you one situation, if Tornado is only KD, it will stay on the target until it moves out of aggro range, the target dies or the power expires. If it is stuck whaling on a pair of minions and not swathing through them, it can't switch targets to the lt or boss that's mezzing me.

 

Posted

Bonfire, like its close cousins, the toggled PBAoE KB powers, doesn't appear to have a target cap.

OK, I'm going to go on the record and say that this is nucking futs. I just ran my fire dom with this proc in Bonfire. Nucking. Futs.

A large AoE? No target cap? Damage? One-shot neutralizes an entire 8-guy spawn? Autohit? Fast recharge? Long duration?

Devs, it's stupid powerful. If you keep it, you gotta do something about the toggled KB powers -- they are inferior in every single way possible (smaller AoE, more end, no damage, high mag KB). And if you're gonna nerf it, do it like ... last week.

 

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Originally Posted by BurningChick View Post
Devs, it's stupid powerful. If you keep it, you gotta do something about the toggled KB powers -- they are inferior in every single way possible (smaller AoE, more end, no damage, high mag KB). And if you're gonna nerf it, do it like ... last week.

Some apologies from the posters who attacked those of who pointed this out months ago may be in order as well. I don't honestly remember who they were and am too lazy to go check, but this outcome has been known from the first day the proc was announced, and some of what our fellow players had to say about pointing it out was fairly un-nice.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningChick View Post
A large AoE? No target cap? Damage? One-shot neutralizes an entire 8-guy spawn? Autohit? Fast recharge? Long duration?

It actually does have a target cap of 16. What's interesting about that is Ice Slick has a target cap of 10. I have no idea what the target cap actually does though; in Ice Slick, it would seem like it would make only some enemies suffer from -RunSpeed, but doesn't seem to work out that way in practice.

 

Posted

I just tried this.. and its overpowered.. they are going to need to change the KB percentage in Bonfire..

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
I just tried this.. and its overpowered.. they are going to need to change the KB percentage in Bonfire..
But it's not just Bonfire...and doing that would be a nerf to the mitigating effects of a power because of a special enhancement...that'd be like nerfing armor sets just because of IO bonuses.

 

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I'd like to see someone with Bonfire slotted for damage and the proc put up a video of it in action.

Let's at least keep the event documented for future generations.


 

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Originally Posted by Tormentoso View Post
I'd like to see someone with Bonfire slotted for damage and the proc put up a video of it in action.

Let's at least keep the event documented for future generations.
Gimme a bit and I'll whip up a quick video.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Some apologies from the posters who attacked those of who pointed this out months ago may be in order as well. I don't honestly remember who they were and am too lazy to go check, but this outcome has been known from the first day the proc was announced, and some of what our fellow players had to say about pointing it out was fairly un-nice.
Woah now OT, I've heard of reaching for the stars but some things simply are not meant for mortal men to see. Would you ask the wind to stop blowing, or Johnny to declare tankers "fine, thanks?"

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
If they change the KB percentage in Bonfire because of an IO I won't slot in it, I am going to be displeased.
This is what I keep saying. People keep mentioning 'Bonfire needs a nerf' when Bonfire isn't even the problem...or even the only occurrence of this faulty addition.

I happened to get a chance to play my new Beam/Poison Corr last night and joined some vigilante tips with a group of lvl 30+s. It was pretty easy with standard +1 difficulty but after raising the difficulty higher, it was trouble...then vs Nemesis? Might as well have just hit Self Destruct...

Then we got a Fire Dom to join. Wow. Quite ridiculous. Seeing it in action for myself, the mobs really *do* fall in unison (pretty much). It's almost too funny looking to change

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
If they change the KB percentage in Bonfire because of an IO I won't slot in it, I am going to be displeased.
I don't know why people keep saying this either. The obvious nerf (if they're going to nerf it) is just to make Bonfire not accept Universal Damage Sets. If fact, I expect that's a major part of the reason they put this IO in a whole new category like this. Just so that they can target nerf without making changes to the power or the IO.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.