I am thinking of reviving my Fire Dom due to Bonfire+Oppressive Force. Nerf incoming?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-01 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
The only way I could see this happening is if they remove the ability to slot damage sets into bonfire. Which I dont think they would do.
Both Repulsion Field (Force Field) and Repel (Kinetics) are flagged to ignore the purple patch specifically because of this issue. Because the animation time for knockdown is longer than the knockdown pulse rate (2 seconds) any enemy that gets too close is completely disabled and unable to react after it enters the patch.
In another thread I estimated the knockdown chance of Ice Slick as 57% every 2 seconds and Earthquake at 51%. Bonfire, at 100%, is clearly the best of them. Yet its recharge is 60 to their 90 and its duration is 45 to their 30.
I think IOs should make us more powerful. But in this case I think it goes way too far. IMO when an IO ends up creating a power that is so extreme the developers would never deliberately give us that ability (in fact, went to the trouble of specifically coding that effect out of similar powers) it needs to be reeled in.
It should be noted that Bonfire is a power available in APPs while Ice Slick, Earthquake and so on are not. It would actually be less overpowered to just give Masterminds both of these powers than to give them Bonfire under these conditions. By "both" I mean both of them together, in the same APP: Earthquake + Ice Slick on top of each other have less of a chance to lockout an enemy than Bonfire does.
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So you are saying hold off until synapse makes a Statement?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Both Repulsion Field (Force Field) and Repel (Kinetics) are flagged to ignore the purple patch specifically because of this issue. Because the animation time for knockdown is longer than the knockdown pulse rate (2 seconds) any enemy that gets too close is completely disabled and unable to react after it enters the patch.
In another thread I estimated the knockdown chance of Ice Slick as 57% every 2 seconds and Earthquake at 51%. Bonfire, at 100%, is clearly the best of them. Yet its recharge is 60 to their 90 and its duration is 45 to their 30. I think IOs should make us more powerful. But in this case I think it goes way too far. IMO when an IO ends up creating a power that is so extreme the developers would never deliberately give us that ability (in fact, went to the trouble of specifically coding that effect out of similar powers) it needs to be reeled in. It should be noted that Bonfire is a power available in APPs while Ice Slick, Earthquake and so on are not. It would actually be less overpowered to just give Masterminds both of these powers than to give them Bonfire under these conditions. By "both" I mean both of them together, in the same APP: Earthquake + Ice Slick on top of each other have less of a chance to lockout an enemy than Bonfire does. |
Ok putting the fire dom back on ice.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So you are saying hold off until synapse makes a Statement?
Ok putting the fire dom back on ice. |
Not necessarily, especially if you already have a character who can take advantage of this. Mainly, that would be Blasters or Masterminds, because they get Bonfire in their APPs. My Rad/Fire/Fire has Bonfire and I plan to abuse it for what its worth. I feel like I've done my duty to inform them here and in the beta.
I have no idea if they are going to do anything about it. I actually don't think very many people even know about the flag on Repel and Repulsion Field. I only found out about it when I got curious about whether I could disable +6s by standing on top of them with a Force Fielder, and found out that enemies always fly the same distance with that power.
For reference, here is the issue note on the change to Repel back in the day (issue 3) describing the effect applied to those powers. From the Powers section of the Patch notes [taken from ParagonWiki]:
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It should be noted that the comment on preserving resistance normally works in the opposite sense with the way enemies are actually designed. It means things like Clockwork and Rikti Monkeys fly further because they are vulnerable to knockback. Very few enemies that are Resistant to knockback are not also Protected, at least if my hands on experience trying to game the system (and mostly failing) with Repulsion Field indicate anything, so even though in theory an enemy with 999% Kb resist would fall over rather than fly backward when hit by Repulsion Field, I've never actually seen it happen.| Whirlwind, Repel, and Repulsion Field will KnockBack foes of all levels the same distance. That is, Repulsion Field will no longer lock higher level foes into permanent KnockDown. (This is a change to the level of a target and does not affect a targets resistance to or vulnerability to KnockBack). |
[Sidenote: It's the developer's lucky day that Whirlwind doesn't happen to take damage IOs. Even with this flag, the IO might work and it would be hilariously obvoius how OP this ability is. Not any more OPed than Bonfire is, mind you, just more obvious because anyone could do it instead of just Fire Control characters and Blasters/Masterminds who take that APP.]
A year or two ago, sometime before super-sidekicking, there was an exploit where Bonfire would do knockdown against +5 or +6 Neuron robots in the Maria Jenkins arc. (The robots resist knockback, and the purple patch brought the resultant Kb down below 1)
Bonfire was fixed to ignore the purple patch, I believe, so that this could no longer happen.
So it would not surprise me at all if this particular use of the KD IO gets nerfed. I'd say slot it for now, but have an unslotter handy in case you want to move it.
I would expect a nerf to be incoming, but seeing as how long stuff like Trap's old "Proc Bomb" Poison Trap took to fix, who knows when. (which was conveniently fixed right before "Lockdown: Chance for Mag 2 hold" went live.. Which would have turned it into something that would make even the mighty Volcanic Gasses blush.
My advice would be; if you have a toon who can already take advantage of the IO, use it, but I would be wary of rolling up a new toon just to capitalize it. You wouldn't be punished or anything, but it might end up wasting your time.
Agree with Tex's comments. It is WAY too good. I was saying similar in another thread. If BF's kd ticced slower, so they could actually attack between the bouncing..maybe. But as it is..stupidly powerful.
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It is stupidly powerful. I respec'd to use it. It is perma'd, and I can use it every fight from out of LoS.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Agree with Tex's comments. It is WAY too good. I was saying similar in another thread. If BF's kd ticced slower, so they could actually attack between the bouncing..maybe. But as it is..stupidly powerful.
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I don't use flashfire or cinders anymore - except against things that are immune to knockdown.
We don't know for sure, as no red name has stated if they think it's overpowered.
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It would be easy -- they could make at least a fixed mag 1 KB (or even say, half) of the KB in Bonfire unenhanceable. The remaining part could still be enhanced, but enough would be unaffected by the KB->KD enhancement to work either way.
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
The only way I could see this happening is if they remove the ability to slot damage sets into bonfire. Which I dont think they would do.
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With you there Dug. I already had it, on both my fire doms. But yeah..just throw it from around a corner..afk while the Imps eat everyone.
Not to call your comment stupid Code..but it pretty much is. lol. Well..no..the IDEA that just because the devs dont see it as being OP..so it somehow becomes non-OP. If they really can look at how good bonfire is with this proc and say 'Nah nothing wrong there guys!' they have even less idea about their own game than I sometimes think.
(AE anyone?? Who couldnt see how that would turn out, assuming at least a massive 5 minutes of cox experience)
Could probably aim a change to the proc to hinder 'persistent knockback' conversion. That is, the effect only provides KB>KD conversion *once* and not again until after a 10sec downtime. The result would be Bonfire knocking down the initial targets caught in it then knocking them back when the KB suppression wears off then goes back to KD once after 10sec...
This would also affect powers like Tornado and the like but have no affect on one-time click powers like Solar Flare or pets that use clickies like Lightning Storm.
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I'm not saying it isn't overpowered. But what the devs think is important, because it determines if they feel it necessary to change it or not...|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Not to call your comment stupid Code..but it pretty much is. lol. Well..no..the IDEA that just because the devs dont see it as being OP..so it somehow becomes non-OP. If they really can look at how good bonfire is with this proc and say 'Nah nothing wrong there guys!' they have even less idea about their own game than I sometimes think.
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I would call Drain Psyche overpowered, however devs have gone out of their way to avoid touching it, even stating that if they made any changes to they set they would have to nerf it.
Most definitely needs a nerf, at least for Bonfire. And Tornado.
Things like Solar Flare and the like are fine, but Bonfire and Tornado need to be unaffected by this IO.
I mention Tornado because, while not AS ludicrous as Bonfire, Fair is Fair.
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I actually regard DP as..not that great. Well..not as great as most think. Perhaps its my play style. Granted, it IS amazing vs an av..but..for most normal stuff..anyway.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
I would call Drain Psyche overpowered, however devs have gone out of their way to avoid touching it, even stating that if they made any changes to they set they would have to nerf it.
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To look at your second line there...the devs are saying that if they changed DP, it would be a nerf. How much closer can they GET to admitting they think it is OP? lol. But no..they wont change it because they are to stubborn and dont want to be wrong. MUCH easier to..you know..give EVERY blaster secondary a similar power...
I like your idea Leo. In fact..it is a very obvious and clever solution. SO obvious in fact..I cant help but wonder why the hell they didnt make the IO like this in the first place.
Is it perma KD in nado? I cant remember if thats constant kb..or is it the stun thats just a % chance?
Am actually struggling to find powers I want to use the proc in on my toons. Aside from the obvious..my fire doms and stormies..
My /em doms..yeah it would work in Power Push..but I wanted that for the huge kb, as more control. Same for my dark blaster and Abysal Torrent.
Also doesnt help the set bonsues are..meh. At best. If it was 100% kd, in a power that didnt have it..hell yeah, Id be slapping in in throw spines etc etc..but just a chance? Better use for slots.
Of course that is another reason why it is so OP in bon and nado..those powers just need and can get away with one slot.
My guess is, if there is a nerf at all (and there may well not be to the IO), they would make it so slotting the proc into Bonfire (and probably Tornado too since those two seem to be the only real outliers right now) would reduce the frequency of the knockdown to say Earthquake's level.
Doing that might make it so the mitigation offered by the knockdown is still there, still reliable and still good without it being flop-a-palooza every time you drop it.
Why might there NOT be a nerf to the IO? Cause this proc may well be a test to see how we would break things turning KB to KD. Cause they may plan to give us more ways to turn KB into KD. If they do decide to give us more methods then I could see some POWERS getting adjusted in light of that (such as Bonfire and Tornado's KB frequency)
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
An ideal "final state" for the procs for me would be if in Toggles and Toggle-likes they cancelled knockback completely but caused a 100% knockdown effect every 10 seconds. That's still extremely generous (putting a KD proc in Caltrops will proc every 10 seconds, 20% chance) without being way OPed. With its 45 second duration, Bonfire has 5 ticks. With the cast time of 3.07s that works out to be fairly similar to a very fastcasting minor control power.
To give another source of comparison, right now in terms of animation speed Bonfire is ticking faster per pulse than a single cast of Jolting Chain. A person who cast nothing but Jolting Chain back to back and was locked in that animation chain for 45 seconds would have fewer knockbacks than someone who cast Bonfire one time at a cost of 3 seconds. Even given the minor extra damage of Jolting Chain, that's way off.
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Hmm, that's a possibility.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Why might there NOT be a nerf to the IO? Cause this proc may well be a test to see how we would break things turning KB to KD. Cause they may plan to give us more ways to turn KB into KD. If they do decide to give us more methods then I could see some POWERS getting adjusted in light of that (such as Bonfire and Tornado's KB frequency) |
Personally, I'd have hoped they'd look into means of making KB more attractive too rather than just ways to remove it wholesale.
The one thing you can say is it would be nice if the Devs made a definitive statement about this proc. It would also be good if they actually stuck with their position.
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Also true Leo. Some people hate kb, some like it. SOme love it, some cant use it at all, some people are great with is. Teamed with a storm/energy fender once..I was ready to kill myself having just SEEN her powers..then I was flat out amazed by the playstyle. Never use kb in an annoying way over a whole tf.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hmm, that's a possibility.
Personally, I'd have hoped they'd look into means of making KB more attractive too rather than just ways to remove it wholesale. |
Trouble is..for the players..kb is already 99>% removed from the game..due to -kb IOs being so easy to get. Remember before them, when you had to get accro? (back when it was good accro..mag 100)
Now thos Io can remove it..to a degree..from our effects. As you said..removing it almost wholesale from the game.
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I can't think of any real way to make it attractive.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hmm, that's a possibility.
Personally, I'd have hoped they'd look into means of making KB more attractive too rather than just ways to remove it wholesale. |
I mean it's nice when mobs are on the ground... but its not so nice when they are on the ground but out of range, or on the ground... out of the debuffs, or on the ground... out of the melee's pbaoes.
The devs may well add a new knockback IO set (and thus not limited to only powers that take damage enhancements) with a non unique KB-KD IO (and that's all it would do, no adding a proc to non KB powers, no secondary enhancement like damage or recharge) in the future. Thus giving players control over what powers they have that will KB or KD. Doing it this way also adds a "cost" to the change of the power as well because now you have to spend a slot specifically for that change from KB to KD, whereas just doing it through null the gull would have had no cost at all and been completely global to all your powers whether you wanted it for just one power or not.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I just thought of an IO I'd love to have:
Universal KB IO proc: converts chance of KB into 100% KB
(and for powers with 100% KB, it improves the KB mag)
Would changing Earthquake/Ice Slick into 100% chance of their .67 mag KB be overpowered? I guess it would make mobs unable to fight back at all...still, I want my Crane Kick to ALWAYS knock foos into walls 
I have always thought Energy Blast should be able to switch between knock and non-knock at will. Duel Pistols actually can do this, although its rarely really made note of. It was the only reason I could play Pistols over Energy.
It feels like a master of Energy Blasts should have the best control over whether enemies fall down or fly back. Like I pointed out in the Gravity beta with Propel, just getting hit with a big object doesn't necessarily mean you would "realistically fly backwards. We just tend to think that way because power animations always show blows to the mid section. In a realistic situation, getting hit in the legs or face would flip you over rather tha throw you back, and a blow to say the left hip would likely spin you around rather than throw you backward.
Putting the Oppressive Force KB->KD pro in Bonfire is rather awesome.
I am thinking of reviving my Fire/Earth/Soul Dom for the sole reason of playing with this.
Is a nerf coming to this something that I should worry about and change my plans based on?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!