I am thinking of reviving my Fire Dom due to Bonfire+Oppressive Force. Nerf incoming?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-01 17:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
They could fix this by making Bonfire give a debuff to enemies so they become vulnerable to knockback. It wouldn't change the original power's purpose and it would make Bonfire less overpowered. The same thing could be given to Tornado.
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Personally, I don't think Tornado warrants the same tweaking for this enhancement as Bonfire. It's certainly better with the enhancement, but it's not shutting down entire mobs. For a controller spamming an immobilize with -kb, there's little change in performance except a few stray tosses are prevented.
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
They could fix this by making Bonfire give a debuff to enemies so they become vulnerable to knockback. It wouldn't change the original power's purpose and it would make Bonfire less overpowered. The same thing could be given to Tornado.
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I really wish I knew how to get a video up or had the time, I would love to show you what a well slotted Firex3 dom can do with it now. I am able to pull 2 +4 8 man spawns and lock them down with bonfire with no issues. With no threat of return fire I can pretty much destroy them in no time while pulling other mobs to my 2 perma bonfires.
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If they can apply the same IO lockout Swift and Hurdle have, that would be good enough for Bonfire.
As is, too stupidly powerful.
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Anything that requires the 'right map and strategy' to not be detrimental is not a good power.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I've read a lot of comments like this about Bonfire and pretty strongly disagree. The perma-knock that people are recognizing in Bonfire was always there, it just required the right map and a strategy to lock enemies into a corner. I consider Bonfire a very, very good power and would personally never skip it except on a very specific kind of farming build. If the power had less favorable recharge and duration I could see skipping it, but in terms of slotting it's almost a freebie. I don't generally consider knockback all that great, but this power was one of the few I thought pulled it off reasonably.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That isn't what he said. If the only way for a power to not be detrimental in your opinion is for it to be a perfect farming tool in all cases, well, you're even more fanatically opposed to nuance than I would have guessed.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Anything that requires the 'right map and strategy' to not be detrimental is not a good power.
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In the hands of a poor player, Bonfire is a detriment.
In the hands of a skilled player, Bonfire is seldom used outside of extreme situations (generally, if a mob group can be pushed into a corner.)
Considering fewer and fewer maps are using the 'indoor' design with such advantages to go with them, for the average player, Bonfire is an extremely weak, if not detrimental power.
All things said, Bonfire doesn't need a 'nerf'. It just needs to lose the ability to apply this proc. Period. Anything beyond that is nice, but not as important.
I'm beginning to think some of you people have never been on a team before, or soloed with a blaster for that matter. Is the only application you can think of for bonfire seriously shoving things into a corner to be aoed? That's a personal problem, it isn't anything to do with power quality.
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I absolutely agree with this
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Anything that requires the 'right map and strategy' to not be detrimental is not a good power.
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Bonfire can be thrown down for squishies to sit in as a 'safe zone', but either way this is not about what Bonfire can do, but what it shouldn't be doing.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'm beginning to think some of you people have never been on a team before, or soloed with a blaster for that matter. Is the only application you can think of for bonfire seriously shoving things into a corner to be aoed? That's a personal problem, it isn't anything to do with power quality.
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That's exactly what he said. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
That isn't what he said.
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| If the only way for a power to not be detrimental in your opinion is for it to be a perfect farming tool in all cases, well, you're even more fanatically opposed to nuance than I would have guessed. |
Flight is not a farming tool, but it is a perfectly good power. It doesn't require any special maps or situations to be a good power. It does what it says and its drawbacks aren't too obtrusive. I did not say anything about farming. That was your assumption and it was dead wrong. Bonfire is not a good power. It's uses are so minimal with the KB that it doesn't pay for its opportunity cost.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Illuminate us with your tactical acumen then.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'm beginning to think some of you people have never been on a team before, or soloed with a blaster for that matter. Is the only application you can think of for bonfire seriously shoving things into a corner to be aoed? That's a personal problem, it isn't anything to do with power quality.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Immobs and, to a lesser extent, slows can also create a "no-go" zone. That's the basic design flaw inherent with large-scale KB and repel powers -- you can get a similar effect (keeping mobs at range for the ghetto damage debuff) with powers that tend to keep mobs clumped together for AoEs.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Bonfire can be thrown down for squishies to sit in as a 'safe zone', but either way this is not about what Bonfire can do, but what it shouldn't be doing.
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The devs thought they had created a tactical, ST game (extreme example: tanker taunt was ST) and tried, hard, for a while not to think about the OMG AoE-fuelled zerg they had actually made.
What we're seeing is that some powers were made for a game we never played.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's exactly what he said.
... You can take your strawman and stuff it. |
EvilGeko, what I said is that it requires the right map and strategy to perma lock enemies in a corner. I did not say that is the only time I use Bonfire, or the only time it is useful. If I was, I'd be pushing to nerf that effect too, because like I said: the result is identical to this proc. What keeps that portion of it balanced is the fact that you can only use it on certain maps. That is why I brought up maps.
I do not want to see the base Bonfire power nerfed. However I really don't think it needs a major buff either. The fact that some people skip and some don't in this case is a sign to me that the power is fine. Unless someone is going to advance the case that Fire Control is underpowered and optional-ish powers like Bonfire are holding it back.
I don't know where the belief that every single power has to be attractive to every single player or else its terrible is coming from. Bonfire is IMO not only fine for some players, it grants effects identical to the proc you are saying is overpowered.
Sorry for the italics, but I want to make those points very clear so that I mae sure there is no confusion about my position.
I'd rather they make changes to Bonfire as opposed to just simply locking out the IO. I'm never a fan of removing options from this game (I hate powers that can't be buffed/slotted for recharge like Willpower's T9 for example), but this is pretty obviously overpowered and they need to do something about it.
I hate to be bring more bad news to an already miserable thread, but there's a real possibility of a surprise nerf here.
The last change to Bonfire, to prevent continuous autohit knockdown of high level enemies, was considered an "exploit" fix (sarcasm quotes are mine, not the devs') and therefore went live without any prior announcement.
Likewise, the devs today might believe super duper, level 3 secrecy on any Overwhelming Force proc change is necessary, lest more players find out about clever uses of the proc. We may not find out the devs don't intend the proc to work with Bonfire until the day they patch it to stop the proc working in Bonfire.
In other words, I think the dev silence on this issue may be meaningful.
I wouldn't be surprised if they sneaked the nerf in today with the Water Blast. I know for me at least, I'll be too busy to care tonight. (not that I care anyway, Bonfire will be relegated to uselessness sooner or later)
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Bonfire doesn't need the nerf because even if you're a Fire/Kin Controller the damage is pitiful.
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That's really more of a KB position than a Bonfire-specific position I suspect.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Bonfire is not a good power. It's uses are so minimal with the KB that it doesn't pay for its opportunity cost.
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Damage isn't the point though. It provides absolute, complete, total, unbreakable control to everything it touches.
You could cast bonfire and Brawl an 8 man spawn of +20s to death (well if they couldn't regen hp, but you get the point) with just that one power and do it in complete safety.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Damage isn't the point though. It provides absolute, complete, total, unbreakable control to everything it touches.
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I feel I should prepare you for the extremist POV that is likely to follow your post.
There are a few people impressed that AVs and a few mobs here and there have knockback protection. It either hasn't occured to these folks that anything that stops Bonfire also stops other knock patches, or they don't care. In the end, Bonfire doesn't quite provide total, unbreakable control all of the time. The important point is that it doesn't need to. Just the fact that 1 Bonfire is better than 4 Ice Slicks stacked on each other should raise eyebrows.
The power doesn't need to solo groups on its own or completely lock out every possible enemy to be overpowered. The developers could have given Ice Slick or Earthquake 100% knockdown, but didn't, for a reason. They could have given Wormhole knockdown, but again declined. They could have put highly reliable, extremely powerful control powers into Blaster and Mastermind APPs, but again didn't. They could have let Repulsion Field do eternal knockdown, but patched it out. They could have given Bonfire the Recharge and Duration of a balanced knockdown patch, but didn't, because it has never functioned as a standard knockdown patch.
In the end, there are some people unwilling to admit anything is even capable of being overpowered, because they have no standards by which to make the claim. They are essentially arguing from an emotional place rather than a logical one.
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Not at all. It's simply that the KB makes the power so situational, that I can always find something else that would be more useful in a build.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's really more of a KB position than a Bonfire-specific position I suspect.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
With today's coffee talk we now know that the proc in bonfire and tornado will change it's 100% chance to knockback every 2 sec into a 40% chance to Knockdown every 2 sec instead.
I think that is still pretty potent and yet much more balanced.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I'm amazed that Arbiter Hawk (/em wave$$s hi Jeff!) was able to escape the Cone Of Silence he works in all day to come and give an extremely definitive answer to how the interaction of the Overwhelming Force Proc "works" (and will work in a future patch) when slotted into Bonfire and Tornado ... which quite honestly are "edge cases" that really ought to have their own workarounds for how they operate in this context.
Thanks Arbiter Hawk. 
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There I was, no build at all worth mentioning, and this one power due to a single IO let me shrug off entire 8-Man spawns.
Anchor debuffs were used mainly for pulling purposes, but I don't think they made a survivability difference at all unless I decided to try and pull 2 groups like in the later portion. (I did that primarily to test the target cap, which seemed to be higher than 16, might be because of how the pulsing works)