The Shawarma Initiative *SPOILERS* AVENGERS DISCUSSION *SPOILERS*
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-05-04 24:12 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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I don't think the terms of their arrangement were explicitly stated by the baddies, but the Avengers theorized Loki's getting Earth in exchange for the Cube.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
Unfortunately, I have a poor memory of the opening scene. I want desperately to see the movie again (and again, and again), so that I can pay more attention to it, but I just haven't had time. So yeah, if Thanos's speaker's dialogue implied (or outright stated) this offer in the beginning, that's cool, and makes even more sense.
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- CaptainFoamerang
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Loki knows Earth is the home of Thor's love interest. (There was scene where Fury and Coulson talked about how they sent her into hiding) If he conquers the Earth he can track her down and use her to get Thor to surrender and kill him. Most likely after using her to torture him. Thor's death would torture Odin and could send him once again into the sleep which would further weaken Asgard and make it more vulnerable to attack.
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
Yeah I understand the motive they gave Loki for the film was attacking Earth as a form of regenge against Thor. It's just a rather weak motive. He even states during the film that he's the rightful ruler of Asgard.
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Like I said, these are just a few nitpicks, and nothing that really detracts from the film what so ever.
I don't remember Thor that well over-all. And would go so far as to say it's the weakest of the Marvel Movie Studio films made thus far. It's better that quite a bit of stuff that gets put out, but over all I'd say it was just fair. I never bought the romance between Thor and whatshername. Everythng done on Asgard was great, and only bits of the earth part worked for me. But I don't recall Loki finding out about Thor's love interest.
Though I'd believe that he found out about that more by his taking over the mind of the doctor than he'd been spying on Fury long enough to learn about all the Avengers.
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Loki learned of Jane Foster in THOR's movie. When THOR regained his hammer and returned to Asgard to have words with Loki they began to fight. During the fight, Loki taunted THOR about what had made him so soft now and then said it must be the girl he met on Earth. Then said that after he kills THOR, that he will visit her! This naturally ticked THOR off.....
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
Like I said, these are just a few nitpicks, and nothing that really detracts from the film what so ever.
I don't remember Thor that well over-all. And would go so far as to say it's the weakest of the Marvel Movie Studio films made thus far. It's better that quite a bit of stuff that gets put out, but over all I'd say it was just fair. I never bought the romance between Thor and whatshername. Everythng done on Asgard was great, and only bits of the earth part worked for me. But I don't recall Loki finding out about Thor's love interest. Though I'd believe that he found out about that more by his taking over the mind of the doctor than he'd been spying on Fury long enough to learn about all the Avengers. |
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Yeah the terms between them weren't specified completely. Basically the Chitauri and their then mysterious leader that gave Loki the staff wanted the tesseract for reasons not stated. Loki gets Earth with the aid of the Chitauri and in turn he gives them the tesseract. |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I don't think the terms of their arrangement were explicitly stated by the baddies, but the Avengers theorized Loki's getting Earth in exchange for the Cube.
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After taking over Earth, Loki would likely set his sights on the other realms including Asgard and seek to conquer them and then take on Asgard.
As for why the Chitauri and Thanos wanted the tesseract, well Thanos knows things about the tesseract/cosmic cube and he may well have wanted it for the same reasons he did way back in the 70's......to become the universe itself and thus all powerful.
Also if that truly is the Infinity Gauntlet in Asgard's weapons vault, Thanos would be much better off with that as it was stated that the gems come from the residue of the big bang and are much more linked to the universe then the tesseract/cube.
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You really need to watch Thor's movie again and pay attention. Loki was watching Thor while he was on Earth and getting a kick out of him being exiled. And in the fight between him and Thor on the Rainbow Bridge he said to Thor|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
Like I said, these are just a few nitpicks, and nothing that really detracts from the film what so ever.
I don't remember Thor that well over-all. And would go so far as to say it's the weakest of the Marvel Movie Studio films made thus far. It's better that quite a bit of stuff that gets put out, but over all I'd say it was just fair. I never bought the romance between Thor and whatshername. Everythng done on Asgard was great, and only bits of the earth part worked for me. But I don't recall Loki finding out about Thor's love interest. Though I'd believe that he found out about that more by his taking over the mind of the doctor than he'd been spying on Fury long enough to learn about all the Avengers. |
"Come on, what happened to you on Earth that turned you So ... Soft? Don't tell me it was That ... Woman!?! Oh ... it Was. Well maybe, when we're finished here I'll pay her a little visit MYSELF!!"
Then later when Thor starts hammering at the bridge
"What are you doing!?! IF YOU DESTROY THE BRIDGE YOU'LL NEVER SEE HER AGAIN!!!"
It's obvious that Loki not only knew about Thor's squeeze toy, but he realized before the end of the movie how much she meant to him.
Yeah I completely forgot about those parts of Thor. I did only see it once and it didn't leave much an impression upon me. I think my brain started to shut down when Thor went to earth as I couldn't buy into the love story angle.
Great action sequences particularly when he's going for his hammer the first time. I was saddened by how underdeveloped the warriors 3 were. It made me feel as if the move had been rushed in order to get it done in time so they could move onto Avengers. I'm glad on the Avengers part, but part of me thinks the Thor movie would've been better had it either been longer, or seperated into 2 movies.
It's understandable to miss/forget stuff when you're losing interest.
I do agree that the story for Thor felt rushed at times, but that's a common problem with movies. If this had been something done for television (like a mini series) rather than theater we might have gotten a better developed storyline.
I think both Thor and Cap's movies were meant to entertain, but also to introduce the general audience to the 'idea' of what these guys were and where they came from. Remember, these movies weren't just made for us
If, by the end of Thor, you could wrap your head around who he was and where he came from before he came to Earth (with the huge contrast in each) and make you buy it, then the film did it job. For fans, it was a bit of a letdown (in my opinion) in that the action of the movie was almost in reverse (Frontloaded with huge battles at the beginning, that became more singular/intamate in their execution as the move went on) which could lead to an almost anti-climactic experience if all you were looking for was action.
The point was showing the high-adventure life he led on Asguard, and the challenges he faced, compared to our world; which it and it's people are much more fragile. His learning what power he had compared to the rest of realms, and its value (plus love story, which has also been a big part of Thor's storyline from the beginning) which led him to become the hero and leader Odin wanted him to be.
In Captain America, it was the time period. Same thing except more about time periods and thoughts than backgrounds. A lot of 40's era life, and worldview, were very different than they were today. That's why a lot of the focus on him is his life before. The military stint was short because while there've been a lot of change in procedures, life in the military isn't much different. Then follow up with what he's become and spend time learning who he is with it, in the world he is a part of. The audience can now wrap their head around the concept of him being a man out of time, with more old-fashioned values and ways of thinking.
I'm sure the next Cap movie will delve into him being that 'man out of time' while facing a cybernetic Zola, Zemo, or maybe even the resurfaced Red Skull, or whatever. The thing is, now they've established who he is and where he's from with people willing to buy it. Now they can go wherever they want with it.
I'm not as sure they'll take more time with Thor and his ties to Earth in the next one. They may bring him back to Asguard to face some other threat in the nine realms. I'd be okay with that. Bring him to Earth for the Avengers movies, but his time is best spent 'out there' in the movieverse, I think. MARVEL, Joss, and company, may prove me wrong... so we'll see 
tl;dr- The Thor and Captain America movies may not have been perfect for fans (though I was happy) but they did what they needed to do for the general audiences while being 'good enough' for the fans as well. The Avengers movie box office receipts don't lie.
Edit: Now DC needs to get that and we'll be in a new Golden Age of costumed heroes for everyone!
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I couldn't agree more.
I would go for Zola in CA2. After all he is played by a British actor, which makes him a must for a villain in an american film!
Start off by aging him up to around 110, and put him on elaborate life support. His motivation could be to extend his life/immortality. He only becomes a cyborg at the end of the film, when his original plan (transfer his brain into Steve Rogers body) fails.
The return of Red Skull (now working for Thanos) could serve as a complication for Zola, since he did betray him in CA1.
The use of Thanos has interesting implications for Thor 2. He has the power to strike directly at Asgard to try to acquire the cosmic cube, so you could do a largely Asgard set movie.
I really should do something about this signature.
I was wondering whether the Asgardians wouldn't use the tesseract to power up a new bifrost. or would they keep it safe?
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If ODIN in the movies is as powerful as he is in the comics he should be able to restore the bifrost himself, even if the effort puts him into the Odinsleep from exhaustion. However the tesseract and Odin combined could easily fix bifrost.
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Originally Posted by nosatufer
I was wondering whether the Asgardians wouldn't use the tesseract to power up a new bifrost. or would they keep it safe?
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I don't think there is any doubt that the cosmic cube could fix the Bifrost. The issue is, would using it be wise?
Odin putting himself out of commission for X many years when Thanos is attacking might not be wise either, but it might be necessary.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Well in the movie the bifrost is a wormhole generator but it only activates from within Asgard so restoring the bifrost shouldn't be opening the gates to invasion. |
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I don't think there is any doubt that the cosmic cube could fix the Bifrost. The issue is, would using it be wise?
Odin putting himself out of commission for X many years when Thanos is attacking might not be wise either, but it might be necessary. |
If repairing the bridge by himself would put ODIN into hibernation then that would be a bad idea unless THOR agrees to stay in Asgard until ODIN awakes.
As to Thanos, if he wants to invade Asgard he can since he IS Thanos. I'm sure he knows ways to get into Asgard without the bifrost.
Can THOR beat Thanos in a straight up fight? Barely. Thanos would have the advantage. ODIN could take down Thanos but it would be costly for ODIN to do so.
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I'm kind of thinking Thanos would have an agent on Asgard, who could redirect the bridge (wormhole) to allow his minions to invade. I'm thinking he would use the Frost Giants, since they would be pretty mad after events in Thor1.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Well in the movie the bifrost is a wormhole generator but it only activates from within Asgard so restoring the bifrost shouldn't be opening the gates to invasion.
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Cosmic Cube = Ring of Power in a different shape. Using it will tend to produce bad results.
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| As to Thanos, if he wants to invade Asgard he can since he IS Thanos. I'm sure he knows ways to get into Asgard without the bifrost. |
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| Can THOR beat Thanos in a straight up fight? Barely. Thanos would have the advantage. ODIN could take down Thanos but it would be costly for ODIN to do so. |
I really should do something about this signature.
Worth noting that on the Thor Blu-Ray, there's not one but eleven deleted scenes, suggesting a lot more backstory and character development the cinema cut got. And Captain America has up to eight, I think.
So for those interested in the more 'expanded' story, this might be where people might like to turn.
S.
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3. Thor
4. Captain America
5. Incredible Hulk
6. Iron Man 2
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Whedon was indicating about 30 minutes at least was cut from Avengers for the cinema.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Worth noting that on the Thor Blu-Ray, there's not one but eleven deleted scenes, suggesting a lot more backstory and character development the cinema cut got. And Captain America has up to eight, I think.
So for those interested in the more 'expanded' story, this might be where people might like to turn. S. |
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And has stated that some of it was with Cap. America and his struggles with conforming to the new modern world. (instead of just the gym scene in the movie)
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Whedon was indicating about 30 minutes at least was cut from Avengers for the cinema.
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"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Which is good, but I can see why it was cut for cinema. The movie is called the Avengers and cannot devote time to focus on Cap's dilemma of being out of time. Perhaps some of that cut footage will be used in Cap 2?
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
And has stated that some of it was with Cap. America and his struggles with conforming to the new modern world. (instead of just the gym scene in the movie)
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According to this interview, the death in Avengers wasn't Whedon's idea:
http://spinoff.comicbookresources.co.../?preview=true
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Originally Posted by Nericus
According to this interview, the death in Avengers wasn't Whedon's idea:
http://spinoff.comicbookresources.co.../?preview=true |
I don't care whose idea it was, I like story lines where beloved characters die.
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Yes but everyone was thinking it was a "Joss Death" and now we know it wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I don't care whose idea it was, I like story lines where beloved characters die.
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Actually, now that I've had some time to remember the scenes in question, I believe the deal was in fact for Loki to get Earth in exchange for Thanos getting the Tesseract. If I now remember correctly, in the opening scene Thanos is saying something like Loki gets the Earth, and we get the universe. So Loki's sights may in fact have been centered on Earth exclusively. I think Thanos' lackey even belittles him for it, mocking his "little ambition" in the scene in the middle of the movie when Loki faces Thanos' minion via the spear.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Yeah the terms between them weren't specified completely. Basically the Chitauri and their then mysterious leader that gave Loki the staff wanted the tesseract for reasons not stated. Loki gets Earth with the aid of the Chitauri and in turn he gives them the tesseract.
After taking over Earth, Loki would likely set his sights on the other realms including Asgard and seek to conquer them and then take on Asgard. As for why the Chitauri and Thanos wanted the tesseract, well Thanos knows things about the tesseract/cosmic cube and he may well have wanted it for the same reasons he did way back in the 70's......to become the universe itself and thus all powerful. |
As to why Thanos needs the Tesseract, it does occur to me that its raw power may not be the point. It may be the most obvious reason shown in the movie itself: it can be used to transport armies to distant worlds. They apparently needed the Tesseract to transport Thanos' army to Earth. If there was an easier way to do that, they would have probably used it. Thanos may need the Tesseract for the simple reason that it opens the door to reaching any world he sets his sights on relatively easily.
In the Thor movie Thor mentions the Asgardian cosmology where the universe is separated into different realms. Thanos may be largely confined to one of them, and while he can influence others that ability is limited by the power he currently possesses. The tesseract may be powerful as a weapon, but the ability to allow you to go anywhere in force may be its most important capability.
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