The Shawarma Initiative *SPOILERS* AVENGERS DISCUSSION *SPOILERS*

Sounds more like "We don't want to allow Superman to lift it"

Going with your suggested idea, then the power of Thor's hammer could corrupt anyone. Wonder Woman lifted it and she's no slouch in power, same with Storm.

And I can't imagine Superman not passing the worthiness enchantment.

Yes Wonder Woman is no weakling, but Superman is supposed to be the strongest, most powerful of them all. At least that was the case before the stupid DC reboot, now I don't know where he ranks in terms of power at the moment.

The writer/editors on JLA/Avengers weren't out to disrespect any character. I remember the uprising of THOR fans when Superman easily decked THOR, only to see them all laugh it up when Superman couldn't lift the hammer at the end. The creative team said it was all part of the story.

I'm also not saying Superman would go corrupt instantly if he wielded the hammer, but the hammer may have sensed Superman's power levels and realized it would be far too dangerous to let Superman wield the power of Mjolnir. Think about it, a quasi indestructible weapon that grants instantaneous control of the weather to the wielder, plus the wielder is endowed with the strength and physical might of THOR. Now picture that wielder as Superman.........not necessarily something that would make many feel comfortable. In the past as I recall he has also passed up membership in the GLC for pretty much the same reason: too much power.

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I've heard theories that it takes more than just goodness, but also overcoming great struggles, or someone who has something like a "warrior's heart", which is why Captain America, a WWII soldier, can lift it, and Wonder Woman (an Amazon warrior) would be able to lift it, but not Superman.

EDIT: Yeah, this is actually paraphrased from Walt Simonson's quote on the Beta Ray Bill wiki page -- the wielder needs to be willing to kill, because this is a weapon designed to kill Frost Giants. However, in that same quote, he said he didn't think Captain America should be able to wield it, because he's a symbol of the US, which would prevent a Norse artifact from choosing him. So you know, it's just whoever the writers feel like letting pick it up.

I would think the second they went corrupt the enchantment would keep them from lifting the hammer.

yes it's all up to the writers, but Steve Rogers was a good man before he got juiced up with the SSS and became Captain America. Ever since that point he has still been a good man, never comprised his ideals, always stood up for the common man, inspired others as a leader, etc. As to the willingness to kill: Cap is a WW2 combat veteran so you can't tell me he hasn't got blood on his hands, but there is the willingness to kill and the thrill of the kill.

Cap doesn't live for the thrill of the kill, he hates killing and for him it is always the last resort so the odds of him abusing the hammer's power are slim to none.

Now Frank Castle or Sabertooth on the other hand should NEVER be able to lift the hammer.

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Possibly, but worthiness is pretty subjective. Back in the old Guardians of the Galaxy series we saw what happened to THOR in the 31st century, how over time living in Asgard he became morose, drank a lot, nearly hit his wife Sif, became more and more of a slob and less a prince until finally one day the hammer detached from his belt and fell to the ground where it remained as he was unworthy. Eventually his son claimed it to fight Loki.

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Replace "pure rage" with "bad writing" and there you go. It's like someone forgetting Spiderman had a Spider-sense or something. Seriously, that scene and Hulk "lifting" it in space are nearly enough to make ME Hulk out and go on an angry nerd rampage.

Agreed. While the Ultimates continuum has had some interesting stuff in it (like Mr. Samuel L. "THIS *IS* MY INDOOR VOICE ******-******!" Jackson as Fury), by and large it's been one horrendous ball of stupid, corporate-sponsored fanfic-grade crap.

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Loki isn't a "god"/Asgardian at all in the marvelverse. He's a frost giant that was adopted, and as far as frost giants go he was tiny and weak and thus abandoned as a baby.

Marlel got it right. In all the norse mythology stuff I can find, Loki's parents (father Fárbauti and mother Laufey) are frost giants, and that makes Loki properly a frost giant. On the other hand what I can find states that Loki is the foster-brother of Odin, not Thor. But then a lot of the Aesir had children with the jotun of various types and those children were often Aesir themselves. Loki however, only seemed to father monsters (and Hel herself). And Loki also gave birth to Sleipnir, Odin's eight legged horse.

o.O Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but in the Ultimate Avengers DVD, they were never in space, so he never "lifted" it in space.

Which reminds me of another question:

If God is all powerful can he make a rock so big even he can't lift it? - George Carlin

What happens in comics is confusing enough without bringing the actual mythology they're bending and twisting to suit their needs.

I tell you, some parts of mythology just make so little sense at times. How exactly does a humanoid deity or being like Loki give birth to a horse? OR Zeus appearing as a swan and seducing someone?

Makes one think that some myths are mythstaken.

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Might be referring to when Red Hulk had first fought THOR and grabbed the hammer (while THOR was still holding it) and took THOR to the moon. Red Hulk had also absorbed some of THOR's energy as I recall.

However while THOR is holding the hammer anyone can grab onto it, but if THOR releases his grip, the worthiness enchantment immediately kicks in and the hammer plunges to the ground.

Also a recent Hulk/THOR fight in the comics had a rather angry Hulk grab THOR's arm and hand while THOR was holding the hammer and proceeded to keep bending THOR's arm back to hit THOR repeatedly in his own face with his own hammer. Hulk wasn't holding the hammer, just THOR's arm which already held the hammer.

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Well you see....
Loki is a shapechanger. Turns out the Aesir needed some help rebuilding the walls around Asgard and a stonemason just happened to show up to build it. Stonemason was acutally a jotun in disguise and used his male horse to haul the stones. In order to have the stonemason not complete the wall in the time alloted (and thus get to marry Freya), Loki turned into a female horse and lured the stonemason's male horse away. Hijinks in the woods followed, and some time later a beautiful eight-legged horse was born. Not sure if Loki just wanted to experience the miracle of being a mother, or if it was another of his tricks that didn't turn out quite how he wanted.

Who ever said religion had to make sense?

So the horse was Loki's john? Did Loki even get paid for his sojourn with the horse? If the answer is neigh then he wasn't turning tricks. He's just a ****.

Loki was helping Asgard on that one, and he got a lot of credit with Odin for it. See, the stonemason had bet that he could build a fortress (which would become Valhalla) in three seasons. If he won the bet, Odin was supposed to give him the sun, the moon, and Freyja. Loki cheated on Odin's behalf.

Of course, Loki was the one behind the bet in the first place, so in one respect he was saving his own hide. And since the stonemason was a frost giant in disguise, it all turned out well. The asgardians got their fortress, the giant got vanquished, Odin got a neat eight-legged horse foal and Loki got humiliated. Pretty typical Norse myth, really.

So your saying he got something for providing carnal services which made the horse his john while he was turning horse tricks.

Since the Earth is in orbit around the Sun, why doesn't Mjolnir stay in place when Thor isn't holding it and burrow through the Earth?

The way I look at the enchantment of Mjolnir, however any being describes it, whether that's Thor or Odin himself, those are just an English description of what the enchantment actually does. The words have to be translated, sort of like a program, from English to either some form of supertechnological implementation or a magical one. But either way, the technology of the magic probably does something much more complex than the words themselves.

The joke above illustrates the point: can God make an rock He can't lift? Translate that to Odin: can Odin make a rock that cannot be moved and then a weapon that cannot be stopped? What happens when they meet? The answer is: something happens, but what happens depends on the exact enchantment each really possesses.

Consider Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics:

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Much of Asimov's robot stories were based on loopholes in those laws, or cases where the laws were implemented in a way that did not anticipate a very unusual circumstance. One story posited that as robot was programmed to obey the laws by giving them weights, such that each law had a much higher weight than the successive laws forcing the robot to obey the highest weight law. Then one day the robot was faced with a situation involving a very weak command (law 2) and certain destruction (law 3) and the weight of law three became high enough to equal the weight of law 2, causing the robot to become deadlocked between the two laws.

Similarly, Mjolnir is somehow enchanted to obey its commandment ("only those worthy may wield you, and in doing so gain the godly powers of Thor") but how the hammer attempts to obey that enchantment is, in some sense, a black box program we don't know the details of, and have to extrapolate from what we see it do.


I'm pretty sure if Mjolnir was on the moon, and Superman pushed the moon, Mjolnir would continue to rest on the surface of the moon. I suspect, though, that if Superman tried to move a small enough portion of the moon Mjolnir would then resist that motion because it would interpret that as an attempt to lift it. But how Mjolnir makes that determination is probably unknowable.

Loki's children with his wife Sigyn were Narfi and Vali. After Loki assisted in the slaying of Balder, the gods turned Vali into a wolf who then killed Narfi. His entrails were then used to bind Loki to three rocks until Ragnarok.

With his mistress, Angrboda, he fathered Hel, Fenrir and Jormungand, the Midgard Serpent. Sleipnir I think was just the result of an added bit of fun on the side.

Sorry, Norse mythology buff and general Loki fan, couldn't resist sticking my oar in.

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And this can be whittled down to lesser cases, if you consider Thor setting it down or dropping it while in a vehicle.