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Arbiter Hawk has shown to be an excellent communicator.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Other <previous> developers should be. Arbiter Hawk has been doing a fantastic job as well taking feedback for the hybrid slot.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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It's been brought up (I compared having 100% proc rates to the streakbreaker). It just likely isn't going to go away, and the penalties due to recharge and AoE are far more likely to affect your performance overall - which is why I suggested bumping it to the 95% that already annoys me, knowing how many times I miss on characters with "capped" tohit I didn't want to think about the "100%" procs happening twice as often. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Something that bugs me about this change, that hasn't really been dug into too deeply
A 90% proc rate cap is antithetical to a PPM mechanic. Should a power manage to get to a 90+% proc chance, but get's capped, then it's not actually doing what it's supposed to. A proc that should go off 5+ times a minute would be unlikely with a 90% proc rate, and would be better placed in a power that gets the full benefit. For procs to get their rate increased, it's mostly fluff considering powers that should proc at a 100% rate or would climb further over that 100% rate, but are capped at 90%. It also makes no sense for a cap, when you start accounting for the modified recharge instead of the base recharge. Before you could say it's being abused at a 100% when it's modified recharge would be sub-100%, but when the rate adjusts with the recharge, there's no reason to cap the rate. |
But then, the RNG hates me.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I really like this idea. Just because you have high recharge doesn't necessarily mean you're spamming the skill that the proc is in.
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Originally Posted by Gorgar
Thanks for the information. I think the PPM change will be unfortunate for really heavy recharge Dark Armor builds, though it will be much better while leveling up. My two 50 DA characters have pretty weak recharge: the one without Hasten gets a buff out of this overall, and the one with Hasten and one purple set has 125% recharge while Hasten is up, and that looks like it will be about even with the existing IO version. (Both have about 100% recharge in the power itself.)
Is it possible to, instead of using the actual recharge number, use the recharge that would be required given the last use of the power? That is, if the power has a recharge of 30 seconds, and I last used it 15 seconds ago, I must have about 100% recharge. If I last used it 30 or more seconds ago, I'm using effectively 0% recharge. Whether the power was up or not, I wasn't using it, and the proc wasn't going off. This would have the effect of letting procs charge up to some cap (maybe the current IO % chance) on the first fight, or in powers one does not use as often as they come up, but would achieve the reduction of proc effect in spammable powers if you spam them. That way at least the penalty for high recharge is only applied if you're actively using the recharge on the power in question, which I think might save a lot of arguments. |
I'm torn on the concept of a cap. It makes a certain amount of sense in an environment where things like hit chances cap out at 95%. But when I think about what PPM procs are supposed to do, mechanically, my brain sort of melts when I think about a 90% cap when we already have an inviolate 100% cap.
Consider - the main mechanical benefit of having a PPM system is that you can make the proc contribute its effect at a constant rate even when it's slotted in powers with different cycle times. Powers with long cycles are more likely trigger the proc than powers with shorter cycles, shooting for a mostly normalized "effect/sec" rate.
But if your power has too long of a cycle time, you hit a "cap" naturally, because you can't have a proc rate greater than 100% If you have a 4 PPM proc and a power that really has a cycle time of 20s, then to really hit 4 PPM, your power would have to go off 33% more often than you activated the power! So there's already a kind of cap built into the system by virtue of the fact that the proc can't fire faster than the power does.
At least under the system originally proposed in this thread, the real PPM would never be higher than the rated value for a proc (and would often be worse), so either 90% or 100% cap only comes into play for very long cycle times. And when cycle times are long enough, even 100% won't meet the PPM rating. So the choice to reduce it to 90% or 95% seems to me to be about not liking things that always work more than any real concern that the PPM rate is too high.
And if adding it was a subjective thing, showing numbers won't necessarily be convincing to change their mind.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Procs were originally designed as something that had a chance of happening. If they were ever intended to be a 100% chance to go trigger they would have been designed to do just that. Take Numina's Convalescence unique for example. That said perhaps having a 95% chance to trigger as a cap might be a better way to go. We'll see. No promises.
Anyhow, I've got a rather promising model so far and I look forward to sharing it with you. I think it works out a lot better.
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Favorite. Dev. Ever.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
There's a reason I like to have an open discussion with players as opposed to just putting blinders on and saying "I'M DOING IT MY WAY!". You guys always bring up excellent points that I may not have considered, or may not have considered as much as I should have. So cheers to you all. Anyhow... back to the drawing board...err drawing spreadsheet...
Synapse |
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That's why I was originally saying that the 90% cap and using the actual recharge were both trying to address the same thing - that being "this proc is going off too often compared to the PPM rating" - and only one of the two needs to be used.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Consider - the main mechanical benefit of having a PPM system is that you can make the proc contribute its effect at a constant rate even when it's slotted in powers with different cycle times. Powers with long cycles are more likely trigger the proc than powers with shorter cycles, shooting for a mostly normalized "effect/sec" rate.
But if your power has too long of a cycle time, you hit a "cap" naturally, because you can't have a proc rate greater than 100% If you have a 4 PPM proc and a power that really has a cycle time of 20s, then to really hit 4 PPM, your power would have to go off 33% more often than you activated the power! So there's already a kind of cap built into the system by virtue of the fact that the proc can't fire faster than the power does. |
I'd like to see it go away entirely, and the reason I brought up the streakbreaker was due to another poster bringing up that (paraphrasing) "procs are things that should only have a chance to go off and shouldn't be guaranteed". Attacks are clamped to a 95% max, but there's still a streakbreaker that forces hits - and I actually had an entire AV fight (Radio) on a to-hit capped Brute (I checked the combat log) where every other hit missed, which means that every hit was due to the streakbreaker (like I said before, the RNG hates me); I don't see forcing a proc that's supposed to fire more often than it can possibly be activated to always go off on each activation as being different.
Edit: And once again, Synapse posts while I'm writing with a response to the concern. That was NOT the post I was referring to originally, because my prescience isn't that reliable.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Totally understood. They do have a couple of faces now, though, that they also are being designed to target an (average) activation rate. The chance to activate is random but with a deterministic average, and 100% rate is technically a valid extreme in the proc's attempt to hit the target. But I get how hitting the PPM design target can violate another - that procs shouldn't always go off.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Procs were originally designed as something that had a chance of happening. If they were ever intended to be a 100% chance to go trigger they would have been designed to do just that.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The game would have to keep track of the last time every power fired, possessed by every player currently logged into the game. That's a lot of data to track in real time.|
Originally Posted by Gorgar
Is it possible to, instead of using the actual recharge number, use the recharge that would be required given the last use of the power? That is, if the power has a recharge of 30 seconds, and I last used it 15 seconds ago, I must have about 100% recharge. If I last used it 30 or more seconds ago, I'm using effectively 0% recharge. Whether the power was up or not, I wasn't using it, and the proc wasn't going off. This would have the effect of letting procs charge up to some cap (maybe the current IO % chance) on the first fight, or in powers one does not use as often as they come up, but would achieve the reduction of proc effect in spammable powers if you spam them. That way at least the penalty for high recharge is only applied if you're actively using the recharge on the power in question, which I think might save a lot of arguments.
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This was the very first idea I thought of actually, but I didn't think it was even worth torturing Synapse into investigating it. I thought the programmers would tell him that was a slap in the face.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out.
2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in.
3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur.
4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger).
5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. I think I heard a couple of you say "Huh?" Let me give you an example and then explain why.
Let's take a look at Dark Regeneration shall we? It has an Area Factor of 4, base recharge of 30 seconds and cast time of 1.17s. Using current PPMs with Essence Theft (3PPMs) it has a 39% chance to proc per target.
With the new formula we'll treat area factor as being slightly smaller than it is now. So the new formula would treat this Area Factor as 3.25. (1+(.75*(Actual Area Factor-1)). The simple version is: Area Factor will have a smaller impact on proc chance reduction.
Okay, now onto the example. Let's use Assassin's Strike slotted with Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide (Standard):
CURRENT PPMs
Assassin Strike
Base Recharge: 15 seconds
Cast Time: 1 second
Area Factor: 1
Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
PPM: 4
Proc Chance: 106.7%
PROPOSED PPMs
Assassin Strike
Base Recharge: 15
Cast Time: 1 second
Area Factor
Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
PPM: 5
0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 83.6%
100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 70.8%
Superior Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%
100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 88.5%
PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs.
Now the why...
As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance. We also realized, after looking at a great number of affected powers, that we were over penalizing AoE powers with PPMs. So, we've lightened the impact Area Factor has on the formula.
Thanks for all the great feedback and really making me look for creative, but appropriate ways to solve this problem.
Thoughts?
Synapse
Can we have a similar example with say, tanker footstomp and Force Feedback chance for +recharge?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
This seems reasonable. Given that you are doubling the number of times you are attacking at 100% rech, you are twice as likely to get a proc. At 70%, this means you have a better chance of procing 2 times in 15 seconds, and an absolute chance of procing at least once in 15 seconds. Factor in global recharge, and this is pretty dang reasonable.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out. 2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in. 3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur. 4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger). 5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. I think I heard a couple of you say "Huh?" Let me give you an example and then explain why. Let's take a look at Dark Regeneration shall we? It has an Area Factor of 4, base recharge of 30 seconds and cast time of 1.17s. Using current PPMs with Essence Theft (3PPMs) it has a 39% chance to proc per target. With the new formula we'll treat area factor as being slightly smaller than it is now. So the new formula would treat this Area Factor as 3.25. (1+(.75*(Actual Area Factor-1)). The simple version is: Area Factor will have a smaller impact on proc chance reduction. Okay, now onto the example. Let's use Assassin's Strike slotted with Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide (Standard): CURRENT PPMs Assassin Strike Base Recharge: 15 seconds Cast Time: 1 second Area Factor: 1 Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide PPM: 4 Proc Chance: 106.7% PROPOSED PPMs Assassin Strike Base Recharge: 15 Cast Time: 1 second Area Factor Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide PPM: 5 0% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 33% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 66% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 83.6% 100% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 70.8% Superior Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide 0% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 33% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 66% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 90% 100% Power Recharge Proc Chance: 88.5% PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs. Now the why... As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance. We also realized, after looking at a great number of affected powers, that we were over penalizing AoE powers with PPMs. So, we've lightened the impact Area Factor has on the formula. Thanks for all the great feedback and really making me look for creative, but appropriate ways to solve this problem. Thoughts? Synapse |
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Hew in drag baby
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That sounds... reasonable. I wonder how much this becomes something people will try to game, by avoiding enhancing certain powers' recharge, and instead heaping on global buffs more than they already do, but in general, this seems like it'll work.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
<Snip>
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Thanks for giving us all the heads-up, and listening to the feedback.
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Certainly!|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Can we have a similar example with say, tanker footstomp and Force Feedback chance for +recharge?
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CURRENT PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 2.5
Force Feedback Proc
IO Chance: 10%
PPM: 1.5
Proc Chance: 22.1%
PROPOSED PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 2.5
Force Feedback Proc
PPM: 1.875
0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 32.5%
33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 25.2%
66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 20.8%
100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 17.8%
PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs.
RE: Synapse, this setup looks much more promising to me.
I will miss the quirk of being able to get to 100% proc rates under special circumstances, but I will also live without it.
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Many high global recharge builds already avoid slotting recharge enhancement in as many powers as possible to conserve slots for other benefits; it's a major reason that high global recharge builds are popular. Personally, I only ever slot anything heavily for recharge on a high global recharge build if I have to to make my desired attack chain or a permanent buff/debuff.
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Originally Posted by Billy Mailman
That sounds... reasonable. I wonder how much this becomes something people will try to game, by avoiding enhancing certain powers' recharge, and instead heaping on global buffs more than they already do, but in general, this seems like it'll work.
Thanks for giving us all the heads-up, and listening to the feedback. |
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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I think this is definitely a step in the right direction, but something still feels slightly off (with the recharge thing; the AoE thing sounds great). Let's see if I can explain properly...|
Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out. 2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in. 3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur. 4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger). 5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. <snip> Now the why... As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance. We also realized, after looking at a great number of affected powers, that we were over penalizing AoE powers with PPMs. So, we've lightened the impact Area Factor has on the formula. Thanks for all the great feedback and really making me look for creative, but appropriate ways to solve this problem. Thoughts? Synapse |
Basically, on the one hand we want to account in some way for the fact that adding recharge means you can cycle your proc'd powers faster, but on the other we want to avoid the odd situation where additional recharge actually *penalizes* you because you *can't* use a power faster.
The question then becomes 'where does the border between these lie?' The above solution is better at this than the original, but I'm not sure if it's quite completely on target yet. As noted already, it can lead to the weird case of deliberately *not* enhancing a power for recharge when you know you have enough global to compensate in order to maximize the proc chance. As well, to first order having a recharge buff placed on you *does* often lead to being able to use powers faster - the problem only really comes into play when it *doesn't*.
As such, I wonder whether having a cap on *how much* recharge it will consider in the proc chance formula might work out better than distinguishing between different sources of recharge - in other words, trying to only decrease the proc chance by an amount of recharge you could reasonably be expected to *benefit* from. For example, if it only considered (say) the first 100% worth of recharge, regardless of source, then it doesn't matter if you've been buffed to the recharge cap in a MS raid.
This doesn't quite deal with the conceptual issue of a buff *ever* potentially causing a decrease in performance, of course - the difference between (say) 33% recharge and 83% would still cause a decrease in proc rate, which may or may not be conceptually acceptable - but it seems like it might lead to fewer edge cases.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
So just to be clear, will this new formula take Spiritual or Agility alphas into consideration? (I'm betting yes but just want to be clear)
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
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Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I vehemently disagree.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
As such, I wonder whether having a cap on *how much* recharge it will consider in the proc chance formula might work out better than distinguishing between different sources of recharge - in other words, trying to only decrease the proc chance by an amount of recharge you could reasonably be expected to *benefit* from. For example, if it only considered (say) the first 100% worth of recharge, regardless of source, then it doesn't matter if you've been buffed to the recharge cap in a MS raid.
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I much prefer the enhancements-only method. This leaves me in control what affects recharge has on my powers. Your proposal still leaves me at the mercy of a random well-intended Kineticist.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Quote:
i think this sounds much more reasonable than the original setup, and the aoe sounds right too, and actually better than a flat % chance to happen
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out. 2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in. 3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur. 4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger). 5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. I think I heard a couple of you say "Huh?" Let me give you an example and then explain why. Let's take a look at Dark Regeneration shall we? It has an Area Factor of 4, base recharge of 30 seconds and cast time of 1.17s. Using current PPMs with Essence Theft (3PPMs) it has a 39% chance to proc per target. With the new formula we'll treat area factor as being slightly smaller than it is now. So the new formula would treat this Area Factor as 3.25. (1+(.75*(Actual Area Factor-1)). The simple version is: Area Factor will have a smaller impact on proc chance reduction. Now the why... As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance. We also realized, after looking at a great number of affected powers, that we were over penalizing AoE powers with PPMs. So, we've lightened the impact Area Factor has on the formula. Thanks for all the great feedback and really making me look for creative, but appropriate ways to solve this problem. Thoughts? Synapse |
Looks good to me. Means the really bleeding edge builds may want to slot to very specific amounts of recharge in the base powers vs. from IO bonuses, but I'm ok with bleeding edge builds needing to do fancy math; for an ordinary person that doesn't have purples falling out their ears, this should work more or less as expected.
(Well, okay, I do still think being able to get a proc to 100% is just a neat mechanic, but that's a matter of preference / style, so I'm willing to live without it.)
OK, I can see one big problem.
Say I have 100% recharge in the power, 45% from alpha, another 180 from hasten and global recharge (including a speed boost/AM etc if necessary).
If the proc is key to me, I may actually be better off unslotting my alpha. That shouldn't be the case. The 45% while a huge boost if I don't have a lot of global recharge, is actually only increasing my recharge from 280 to 310 after ED (11% ish) but I'm getting penalised as if it's increased it from 100 to 145 ie 45% or 100 to 130 if you include ED in this part of the calculation ie 30%.
Edit: would recommend removing alpha from the calculation
Edit 2: I suspect I have 20 or so toons who have taken T4 spiritual alpha, I will be really unhappy if I have to get them all a new alpha.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Quote:
These changes seem much more realistic, especially taking outside influences to recharge. That makes a huge difference imo.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
>snip< Synapse |
I'm looking forward to seeing where all this goes.
Don't I know you???
Quote:
I think that this is definitely a big improvement over the original suggestion. I did some quick calculations and came up with a roughly 10% chance to fire as about the lowest you could go on a 3PPM proc (which it seems like all of the old 20% chance to fire procs are). I'd still rather see a minimum set at 20% (or whatever the fixed chance used to be), but since anything with an (activation + half recharge) time of 3.2 s or higher would be at at least a 20% chance already, it's not that big a deal I suppose.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:
1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out. 2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in. 3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur. 4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger). |
The only thing I find odd is that it seems like the way you have the minimum chance to trigger calculated it won't ever come into play, at least not on ST powers. The fastest recharging/animating one I can think of is neutrino bolt. 3 PPM (raised to 3.75 as in point 1) would give a chance to trigger of 10.9375%. The minimum would be 10.625%. This may be what you intended, but I thought I'd point it out.
Also, point 4 seems to suggest that this will only affect procs from enhancements, not things like the interface slot. I'd still like to get that confirmed one way or the other though if possible.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. I think I heard a couple of you say "Huh?" Let me give you an example and then explain why.
Let's take a look at Dark Regeneration shall we? It has an Area Factor of 4, base recharge of 30 seconds and cast time of 1.17s. Using current PPMs with Essence Theft (3PPMs) it has a 39% chance to proc per target. With the new formula we'll treat area factor as being slightly smaller than it is now. So the new formula would treat this Area Factor as 3.25. (1+(.75*(Actual Area Factor-1)). The simple version is: Area Factor will have a smaller impact on proc chance reduction. |
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This looks really good. It means that I won't be nagged to death to redo builds so double thumbs up from me, but I have one question.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
Original post
Synapse |
Can we get the area factor formula ?
There is one floating around the boards that states
Area Factor = 1+(0.15*Radius)-(0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)
From your examples
Dark regen radius 20 full arc
Example Area Factor = 4
From Formula Area Factor = 4
But
Footstomp Radius 15 full arc
From Example Area Factor = 2.5
From Formula Area Factor = 3.25
Is the formula we have incorrect ? If so can you share the correct one ?
Something that bugs me about this change, that hasn't really been dug into too deeply
A 90% proc rate cap is antithetical to a PPM mechanic. Should a power manage to get to a 90+% proc chance, but get's capped, then it's not actually doing what it's supposed to. A proc that should go off 5+ times a minute would be unlikely with a 90% proc rate, and would be better placed in a power that gets the full benefit.
For procs to get their rate increased, it's mostly fluff considering powers that should proc at a 100% rate or would climb further over that 100% rate, but are capped at 90%.
It also makes no sense for a cap, when you start accounting for the modified recharge instead of the base recharge. Before you could say it's being abused at a 100% when it's modified recharge would be sub-100%, but when the rate adjusts with the recharge, there's no reason to cap the rate.
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