Enhancement Proc Changes


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
This looks really good. It means that I won't be nagged to death to redo builds so double thumbs up from me, but I have one question.

Can we get the area factor formula ?


There is one floating around the boards that states

Area Factor = 1+(0.15*Radius)-(0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)

From your examples

Dark regen radius 20 full arc

Example Area Factor = 4

From Formula Area Factor = 4

But

Footstomp Radius 15 full arc

From Example Area Factor = 2.5

From Formula Area Factor = 3.25

Is the formula we have incorrect ? If so can you share the correct one ?
ACK! You're right. Sorry about that. Foot Stomp's area factor is 3.25 not 2.5. These are the actual values for Foot Stomp with Force Feedback slotted.

CURRENT PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 3.25

Force Feedback Proc
IO Chance: 10%
PPM: 1.5

Proc Chance: 15.8%

PROPOSED PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 2.5

Force Feedback Proc
PPM: 1.875

0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 24%

33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 18.6%

66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 15.4

100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 13.2%

PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague View Post
So just to be clear, will this new formula take Spiritual or Agility alphas into consideration? (I'm betting yes but just want to be clear)
Alphas that modify recharge are taken into consideration. However remember that the primary portion of the alpha is subject to enhancement diversification and the bonus portion is not.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
This looks really good. It means that I won't be nagged to death to redo builds so double thumbs up from me, but I have one question.

Can we get the area factor formula ?


There is one floating around the boards that states

Area Factor = 1+(0.15*Radius)-(0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)
Adding to Synapse's post, when I was working with the devs on the cone formula problem, the formula that was passed to him straight from the code was:

1+(Radius*0.15)-(Radius*0.00036667)*(360-Arc)

That's essentially identical to the one we've been using (ours comes from a spreadsheet implementation of the formula from long ago).

Footstomp should have an AoE factor of 3.25 as you calculated, but melee PBAoEs have been known to use the wrong AoE factor because of spreadsheet errors. Footstomp is one of them. Critically, the PPM algorithm as I understand the implementation will be using the actual Radius and Arc of the power to compute their AoE factor for PPM purposes, which means even if the power's damage, recharge, and endurance costs are balanced around an incorrect area factor the PPM code will compute and use the "correct" factor.

(I base that on the fact that the original bugged Cone implementation accidentally used the Arc value directly without conversion, and Arc is stored by the game in radians not degrees).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
ACK! You're right. Sorry about that. Foot Stomp's area factor is 3.25 not 2.5. These are the actual values for Foot Stomp with Force Feedback slotted.

CURRENT PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 3.25

Force Feedback Proc
IO Chance: 10%
PPM: 1.5

Proc Chance: 15.8%

PROPOSED PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 2.5

Force Feedback Proc
PPM: 1.875

0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 24%

33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 18.6%

66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 15.4

100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 13.2%

PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs.
Thank you very much


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
Certainly!

CURRENT PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 2.5

Force Feedback Proc
IO Chance: 10%
PPM: 1.5

Proc Chance: 22.1%

PROPOSED PPMs
Foot Stomp
Base Recharge: 20 seconds
Cast Time: 2.1 seconds
Area Factor: 2.5

Force Feedback Proc
PPM: 1.875

0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 32.5%

33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 25.2%

66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 20.8%

100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 17.8%

PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs.
While the newer formula is more acceptable Synapse, the current PPM rate you're using for powers like Foot Stomp is actually punishing players who use Procs in that power with a 2.2% nerf at higher recharge speeds which are, at best, fractions of a second in some cases. And while not enormous, but when you have 2 procs per power, 2.2% twice over starts stacking up. It also defeats the purpose we had for buying SBE PPMs in the first place.

I still need to sit down and figure out how this is going to affect Knockout Blow. The problem is that most of us use sets like Hecatomb WITHOUT the Damage enhancement because components like Damage/Recharge serve us much better with high-ranking procs like this. A few percentage points switched out on the base Enhancement values won't mean much on a high global-recharge build, but it still requires us to swap enhancements on every power just so we can keep ourselves from losing whole percentages of proc chance in exchange for mere fractions of a second in speed enhancement. This forces an unfair benefit exchange with min-maxers who now have to try and avoid certain recharge caps just so they don't lose percentage points in proc chance in exchange for quarter-second recharge gains, and that's if they even get the choice since most set bonuses rely on you having so many IOs from a set.

Also, this punishes players for taking IO Sets as opposed to just slotting individual Enhancements for Damage, Endurance, and Procs. It also punishes those of us who used Enhancement Boosters on powers that enhance recharge speeds. This is counter-intuitive.


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Posted

I don't remember if this was mentioned, but is the proc chance affected by how recently the power was used? For instance, if you have a 1 PPM proc in a power that has a 6 second recharge, it should have a 10% chance to proc if you were to use the power nonstop.

But what if you use the power wait two minutes and use it again, does it then go to 100%?


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Posted

This looks good in my opinion, Synapse.

It's odd, balance-wise, that it takes into account enhancement recharge and not global recharge (creating situations where people can improve proc rate for the same actual recharge by maximizing global and minimizing enhancement recharge), but I understand the compromise since external recharge buffs are always global, and I find it acceptable.

Thanks again for addressing our concerns.


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Posted

Edit: Forget it. I. I don't know.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight View Post
While the newer formula is more acceptable Synapse, the current PPM rate you're using for powers like Foot Stomp is actually punishing players who use Procs in that power with a 2.2% nerf.

It's not enormous, but when you have 2 procs per power, 2.2% twice over starts stacking up. It also defeats the purpose we had for buying SBE PPMs in the first place.

I still need to sit down and figure out how this is going to affect Knockout Blow. The problem is that most of us use sets like Hecatomb WITHOUT the Damage enhancement because components like Damage/Recharge serve us much better with high-ranking procs like this. A few percentage points switched out on the base Enhancement values won't mean much on a high global-recharge build, but it still requires retooling on every power just so we can keep ourselves from losing whole percentages of proc chance in exchange for mere fractions of a second in speed enhancement. This forces an unfair benefit exchange with min-maxers who now have to try and avoid certain recharge caps just so they don't lose percentage points in proc chance in exchange for quarter-second recharge gains, and that's if they even get the choice since most set bonuses rely on you having so many IOs from a set.

Also, this punishes players for taking IO Sets as opposed to just slotting individual Enhancements for Damage, Endurance, and Procs.
There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart. However, there are instances where this has occurred. Again, my goal here is to create balance and address some issues with IO procs and Attuned procs.

Also, this PPM change will have no affect on Interface Incarnate powers.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
This looks good in my opinion, Synapse.

It's odd, balance-wise, that it takes into account enhancement recharge and not global recharge (creating situations where people can improve proc rate for the same actual recharge by maximizing global and minimizing enhancement recharge), but I understand the compromise since external recharge buffs are always global, and I find it acceptable.

Thanks again for addressing our concerns.
Not really all that odd. Two really good reasons for that distinction:

1. ED and invention designs limit the amount of recharge you can slot in the first place, so no matter *why* you do it, the range of values you have to balance for is much lower.

2. Slotting is something you do. You have theoretically full control over it. And its *likely* someone isn't going to *slot* for far more recharge than they need for any particular power, separate from the actual slotting limits that exist. But global recharge is something you build for all your powers, even ones that don't need it, and recharge buffs are ally buffs that should, in the general case, not reduce your performance in noticeable ways. From a balance-perspective, ally buffs have always had a larger discretionary range of performance than self buffing and enhancement have.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart. However, there are instances where this has occurred. Again, my goal here is to create balance and address some issues with IO procs and Attuned procs.

Also, this PPM change will have no affect on Interface Incarnate powers.
Fair enough, but what about the use of Enhancement Boosters now coming back to haunt us in regards to Recharge Speed gains that are negligible when stacked with global recharge rates but have an adverse effect on our proc percentages?

After all, recharge speed gains lose benefits exponentially based on the total recharge reduction. That extra 5 or 10% in our power's enhanced values will not afford us but may a .1 second gain because of Enhancement Boosters and slotting (thanks to existing global recharge benefits), but that's going to cost us full percentage points on PPM. In other words, this is punishing end-game players for slotting decisions and for using Enhancement Boosters to squeeze every last microsecond out of a power.

Finally, while this is not a personal problem, there are players out there who are going to have limited funds to go back and retool powers or re-purchase Purple IOs because using Enhancement Boosters to boost Recharge Speed is hurting their proc rates far more than their gaining from the Recharge Speed benefit due to global bonuses. In other words, even though you are removing Global bonuses as a factor, they are still indirectly influencing your proc percentages.

EDIT: I appreciate your feedback on my original post, but I'd -really- like to know your opinion on this part.

EDIT 2: On further observation, I initially believed that recharge speed diminishes in benefit as more are gained. Now I'm trying to figure how those values work out in the first place. All I can find on the subject is this:

Recharge

Maximum
Players and critters have a maximum recharge rate bonus of +400%, which cuts recharge time to 1/5th of normal.

Minimum
Players and critters have a maximum recharge rate penalty of -75%, which increases recharge time to 4x normal.

Penalized for 100%


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Posted

If you really have to go through with this, at least make Spiritual not count towards nerfing your power. It's already denied affecting your incarnate powers, while stuff like Musculature is A-Ok.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart.
I assume you mean in powers below some cycle time threshold. I say that because the surely design intent has to be that PPM/SBE procs give greater benefit in longer cycle time powers. That's inherent in switching to something that gives any consideration of "events per minute".


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Not really all that odd. Two really good reasons for that distinction:

1. ED and invention designs limit the amount of recharge you can slot in the first place, so no matter *why* you do it, the range of values you have to balance for is much lower.

2. Slotting is something you do. You have theoretically full control over it. And its *likely* someone isn't going to *slot* for far more recharge than they need for any particular power, separate from the actual slotting limits that exist. But global recharge is something you build for all your powers, even ones that don't need it, and recharge buffs are ally buffs that should, in the general case, not reduce your performance in noticeable ways. From a balance-perspective, ally buffs have always had a larger discretionary range of performance than self buffing and enhancement have.
Except Alpha slot recharge is effectively global.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Slotting is something you do. You have theoretically full control over it. And its *likely* someone isn't going to *slot* for far more recharge than they need for any particular power, separate from the actual slotting limits that exist. But global recharge is something you build for all your powers, even ones that don't need it, and recharge buffs are ally buffs that should, in the general case, not reduce your performance in noticeable ways.
I have a sneaking suspicion we're going to be stuck with it, but Spiritual Alpha sadly straddles these paradigms. It's something I slot because it benefits certain powers highly, but I have no choice but to accept its bonus on every power (or at least those that accept recharge) whether I strictly need the bonus there or not.


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Posted

Withdrawing my idea on having separate fixed-rate and PPM procs. From late nights spring much silliness. A floor achieves the same effect with less complication to the player, and I'll throw my hat in behind that idea instead.

==========

That said, I still don't see the need to go after powers with shorter base recharges. Conventional wisdom before procs was you skip your tier 1 attack; shorter recharge means lower damage, and lower damage usually means lower DPA and lower benefit to enhancing recharge. Fixed rate procs gave a reason to maybe take Neutrino Bolt on a corruptor, or maybe roll a claws scrapper instead of a claws brute, since the procs offset the lower DPA often inherent to faster recharging powers.

PPM without a floor, or a floor that's too low, means conventional wisdom goes back to skipping your tier 1 attack in most primaries, and never rolling a claws scrapper since brutes get higher recharge, higher DPA versions of key claws attacks.

==========

On AoE modifiers for PPM, I kinda see what you're aiming for: about the same as the amount by which recharge time is increased on AoEs. In other words, you're trying to have a PPM modifier of 4 in Fire Ball cancel out the 4x increased recharge inherent to Fire Ball compared to its closest single target equivalent, Fire Blast.

I like the zen of that approach, except it oversimplifies just a little bit by not accounting for the effect of activation times. At a modest +150% recharge, Fire Blast is cycling every (1.2 cast + 4/2.5 recharge) 2.8 seconds, Fire Ball is cycling every (1 cast + 16/2.5 recharge) 7.4 seconds. This implies a PPM modifier less than 4 is needed to cancel out the increased PPM Fire Ball would otherwise enjoy from its longer cast cycle. (Apologies for not adjusting for Arcanatime.)


 

Posted

You know, Synapse, there is something else I've been thinking about.

I'm not even sure if this would be at all possible to do and have it tagged to the correct power in question when using multiple procs.

But, would it be possible to make the chance for the proc to go off based off of the last time the power was utilized? If it is possible, it would neatly dodge the whole issue of recharge buffs negatively impacting the chance to proc, and makes it so that a fluid chain that gets supplemented with 100% more recharge than it needs would not lose it's proc chance since it's not going any "faster".


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Not really all that odd. Two really good reasons for that distinction:

1. ED and invention designs limit the amount of recharge you can slot in the first place, so no matter *why* you do it, the range of values you have to balance for is much lower.

2. Slotting is something you do. You have theoretically full control over it. And its *likely* someone isn't going to *slot* for far more recharge than they need for any particular power, separate from the actual slotting limits that exist. But global recharge is something you build for all your powers, even ones that don't need it, and recharge buffs are ally buffs that should, in the general case, not reduce your performance in noticeable ways. From a balance-perspective, ally buffs have always had a larger discretionary range of performance than self buffing and enhancement have.
Yeah, "odd" was poor word choice there. I considered "disappointing", but felt that would imply that I was disappointed in his decision. I tried to think of a better word and gave up and went with "odd".

My feeling is that, in an ideal world, you'd be able to separate out ally granted recharge buffs, and not apply recharge buffs that weren't needed (for example, the DB/Regen Uberguy brings up). Obviously we aren't in that world, and that means we've got a min/maxable compromise.

Alien51 and Uberguy also bring up the Alpha slot as something that blurs the line (the DB/Regen doesn't need that bonus in its attacks, either).

Anyway, I still think it's a good compromise for the reasons you state.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart. However, there are instances where this has occurred. Again, my goal here is to create balance and address some issues with IO procs and Attuned procs.

Also, this PPM change will have no affect on Interface Incarnate powers.

I'm using the normal Hecatomb proc, not the SBE. The new formula penalizes my Shadow Punch less than the original posted one. But, I"ll still lose ~3.7% proc chance (33% down to ~29.3%; assuming 25% PPM increase from 6 to 7.5).

I can't say I appreciate the idea of being nerfed ANY to fix the broken PPM SBEs that you introduced that I'm not even using.

However, this is far nicer cut on my proc chance than the original formula was going to be. So, there is that.


I still advocate a Floor proc chance at the existing rate. No nerfs for anybody, and some long recharge powers get a more proportionate increase from procs.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien51 View Post
Except Alpha slot recharge is effectively global.
"Effectively" does not mean "is." The alpha slot is effected by ED, so it's not actually global. It's effectively an additional enhancement.


 

Posted

I need to see what this does to my Claws/SR Scrapper...

What would this do to the Hecatomb proc in Slash?
What would this do to the Apocalypse proc in Focus?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulderone View Post
I'm using the normal Hecatomb proc, not the SBE. The new formula penalizes my Shadow Punch less than the original posted one. But, I"ll still lose ~3.7% proc chance (33% down to ~29.3%; assuming 25% PPM increase from 6 to 7.5).

I can't say I appreciate the idea of being nerfed ANY to fix the broken PPM SBEs that you introduced that I'm not even using.

However, this is far nicer cut on my proc chance than the original formula was going to be. So, there is that.


I still advocate a Floor proc chance at the existing rate. No nerfs for anybody, and some long recharge powers get a more proportionate increase from procs.
The Hecatomb PPM is currently 4.5, not 6, so you're going to lose more than that. Assuming a 25% increase it will only be 5.625.


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Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
The Hecatomb PPM is currently 4.5, not 6, so you're going to lose more than that. Assuming a 25% increase it will only be 5.625.
Doh! You are right!

And, my poor Lightning Field will be even WORSE off.

5.625 * 2 (act.period) / (60 + AoE Factor)

Even with an AoE factor of zero (which isn't right), that's going from 33% chance to proc (Armaggedon proc) to 18.75% chance.

Gah! Minimum Proc Floor please!

All damage auras will see HUGE proc chance/proc damage decreases from this.


Edit: My poor SP will go from 33% down to ~13.3% proc rate, almost a 20% reduction. That takes the average damage from procs from ~35 to ~14.2. Not cool!

Edit2: Non-purple proc rate in fast activating/recharging powers (especially near 100% recharge enhancement) and in Damage Auras becomes absolutely worthless.


 

Posted

I know this is an edge case, but something that should probably be brought up at some point.

Gaussian Chance for BU using a PPM formula in a 90s rchg power (AIM/BU) even at only 1 PPM will have an extremely high proc chance essentially allowing for double BU/AIM nearly everytime.

Is this going to be WAI or is there a plan to address this?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulderone View Post
Doh! You are right!

And, my poor Lightning Field will be even WORSE off.

5.625 * 2 (act.period) / (60 + AoE Factor)

Even with an AoE factor of zero (which isn't right), that's going from 33% chance to proc (Armaggedon proc) to 18.75% chance.

Gah! Minimum Proc Floor please!

All damage auras will see HUGE proc chance/proc damage decreases from this.


Edit: My poor SP will go from 33% down to ~13.3% proc rate, almost a 20% reduction. That takes the average damage from procs from ~35 to ~14.2. Not cool!
Isn't the Period for pulse & aura powers 10 seconds, to match when it actually runs the checks?