Enhancement Proc Changes

Originally Posted by UberGuy

Well, I'd advise at least waiting to see how it plays out in the end. Your total lost DPS, expressed as a percentage of your total, may not be that bad that it is worth abandoning your concept.

Originally Posted by Caulderone

As an aside...
Proc-Brawl is officially dead.

Originally Posted by firespray

For a normal proc (20% chance or 3 PPM) we have the following.

Fireball with 0% recharge enhancement = 39.5% chance to fire
Fireball with 33% recharge enhancement = 30.3% chance to fire
Fireball with 66% recharge enhancement = 24.7% chance to fire
Fireball with 100% recharge enhancement = 20.9% chance to fire

Fire Breath with 0% recharge enhancement = 62.4% chance to fire
Fire Breath with 33% recharge enhancement = 49.1% chance to fire
Fire Breath with 66% recharge enhancement = 41.1% chance to fire
Fire Breath with 100% recharge enhancement = 35.7% chance to fire

Originally Posted by firespray

They're detrimental (quite so at large amounts of recharge) to rain of fire though. The low percentage chance to proc is based both on it's large area of affect (25 feet) and the fact that as a patch, the 'recharge' that the PPM is based on is the 10s of its activation time rather than the 60 seconds of the power's actual recharge.

Originally Posted by eth_Nargy

Spiritual and agility already get ignored by every incarnate power

Originally Posted by Synapse

Okay, here's what I've come up with. The differences are FAR less dramatic than my first proposal:

1) Increase the PPM value by 20-25% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 5ish PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out.
2) Replace the Base Recharge used by the PPM formula to only take into recharge enhancements affecting that power. This means recharge boosts from powers like Speed Boost, Hasten, Chrono Shift and Global Recharge from Enhancement effects like Luck of the Gambler's: +Def/+Global Rech 7.5% are not factored in.
3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90-95%. There will be a minimum chance to proc equal to 5 plus 1.5 per PPM. Only the most extreme instances of very low recharge, cast time and area factor will cause this to occur.
4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger).
5) The formula will treat Area Factor differently. Instead of simply using the flat Area Factor of the power, it will use 1 plus 75% of the difference between 1 and its actual AF. I think I heard a couple of you say "Huh?" Let me give you an example and then explain why.

Let's take a look at Dark Regeneration shall we? It has an Area Factor of 4, base recharge of 30 seconds and cast time of 1.17s. Using current PPMs with Essence Theft (3PPMs) it has a 39% chance to proc per target.

With the new formula we'll treat area factor as being slightly smaller than it is now. So the new formula would treat this Area Factor as 3.25. (1+(.75*(Actual Area Factor-1)). The simple version is: Area Factor will have a smaller impact on proc chance reduction.

Okay, now onto the example. Let's use Assassin's Strike slotted with Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide (Standard):

CURRENT PPMs
Assassin Strike
Base Recharge: 15 seconds
Cast Time: 1 second
Area Factor: 1

Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
PPM: 4

Proc Chance: 106.7%

PROPOSED PPMs
Assassin Strike
Base Recharge: 15
Cast Time: 1 second
Area Factor

Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide
PPM: 5

0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%

33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%

66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 83.6%

100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 70.8%

Superior Stalker's Guile: +Rech/Chance to Hide

0% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%

33% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%

66% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 90%

100% Power Recharge
Proc Chance: 88.5%

PPM: The above values are assuming we apply a 25% bonus to existing PPMs.

Now the why...

As many of you have mentioned it seems odd to penalize players' proc chances for strengthening their builds with global recharge. So, only recharge modification from enhancements and enhancement-like effects (like Alpha Slot effects) will modify proc chance. We also realized, after looking at a great number of affected powers, that we were over penalizing AoE powers with PPMs. So, we've lightened the impact Area Factor has on the formula.

Thanks for all the great feedback and really making me look for creative, but appropriate ways to solve this problem.

Thoughts?

Synapse

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

I do not believe that is how maintained powers with activation periods are intended to work.

Originally Posted by Synapse

There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart. However, there are instances where this has occurred. Again, my goal here is to create balance and address some issues with IO procs and Attuned procs.

Also, this PPM change will have no affect on Interface Incarnate powers.

Originally Posted by StratoNexus

Are those numbers for every target? While I am all for not reducing the chance of my beloved procs in Fireball and Hot Feet and other such powers, I think it would be fairly ridiculous to increase the chance in any of those powers.

If this new formula ends up buffing what the procs do in AoEs, it may be more wrong than when it nerfed what they did in AoEs.

Originally Posted by Synapse

I need to know what power it is slotted in to tell you exactly how it will be affected.

Originally Posted by Vauluur

What about procs slotted into pet summoning powers. For example, if I had a Soulbound Allegiance: Chance for Build Up slotted in Dark Extraction. Will that proc function based on the recharge of the Extracted Essence's attacks and thereby gain an increase in proc rate since they can't be slotted? Or will it function based on the recharge in summoning power?

Originally Posted by Lucky666

I'm just curious why did all this start? I mean this new proc mechanic. Was there like a group complaining about how the old school procs worked before anyone even knew about ppm procs? Seems like a case of if it aint broke don't fix it. But you did fix it and now your gonna have teeth gnashing and angry customers was it worth it?

I'm glad this aint coming till i24 hopefully I'll be burnt out by then and this wont even be a blip on the radar.

Originally Posted by Cheetatron

Nope!

SBEs were advertised for their benefits including the ability to proc 100% of the time even with high recharge

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...27#post4120527

Originally Posted by MajorDecoy

Spiritual is not ignored by every incarnate power.

Rebirth gets a nice bonus from Spiritual.

Agility is not ignored by every incarnate power. Ageless and Barrier both get nice bonuses. Ionic Judgement also gets a bonus if you go the endurance drain route.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

I think it's pretty obvious from context that he meant the +recharge part. And that part is ignored.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

If you actually read that thread, Arbiter Hawk was being asked how the PPM procs specifically worked at that time, he wasn't commenting on their design intent. In fact one poster explicitly asked him to state how they worked directly and not explain side issues beyond that.

In fact, Arbiter Hawk all but said he wasn't specifically involved in their design in the same thread, and thus his comments should only be taken to describe the procs, and not state their design intent:

He knew the basic idea, but not the precise details of the system or its design or implementation at the time he was speaking and admitted so. Under those circumstances, his opinion is no more relevant to the design intent of the procs than mine is.

Originally Posted by Cheetatron

For my main my io proc slotting in caltrops and acid mortar is getting ripped to shreds

Originally Posted by Cheetatron

Its not about opinions on what design intent is or was. I'm not interested in a debate on that
When official policy includes consistently following a formula and the claiming an example of that formula being followed was actually unintended and a "bug"

It's about how it works, it's also about what "they"(staff) told us about how it works, it's also about how they advertise/promote how it works (see the hecatomb announcement thread listing its proc rate as 4.5 ppm)

It's about selling us on all three, selling to us with all three and then changing the item in the sale, the performance element of the sale but leaving the purchase part of the sale final.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

As far as I'm concerned, its about the facts, and the misrepresentation of the facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that right ends where the facts begin.

Originally Posted by Vauluur

Well, I've seen it floating around for some time now that SBEs were never intended to work better than standard IOs. They just did work significantly better because of their better design. I wouldn't have (and didn't) buy any SBEs for the better procs. I bought the sets because:
a.) I have limited play time and they were a convenient way to get IOs without going through the hassle of crafting them
b.) They are attuned, making them highly desirable for those of us who primarily use an existing main to experience new content at all levels.

Frankly, being surprised that a change is coming down the pipeline that stops players from turning powers into something they aren't supposed to be is a little childish. Caltrops are not supposed to be a damage patch. They are supposed to be a crowd control tool. Brawl and Boxing are supposed to be low cost, low recharge, fast animating attacks that deal a small amount of damage. Not something you can load up with procs and expect to solidly deal substantial damage essentially for free.

You got your fun out of the exploit while it existed, but that's no excuse for pretending it isn't an exploit now that they want to fix it.



It's not really something to get upset about. In a very large percentage of cases this will increase proc rate.

Originally Posted by Vauluur

Yes, but for good reason. If the +recharge was not ignored then Spiritual would be the only Alpha worth slotting. The benefits of faster recharging Lore, Judgement, and Destiny would far outweigh whatever benefits the other Alpha powers might give you.

Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar

I'm actually pretty curious about this, so I'm going to run through the math here.

Acid Mortar (the power the pet launches):
Activation Time 0.0s (this is probably a bug, good thing we have The Powers Guy in here, huh?)
Recharge Time: 5.5s
Radius: 8
Area Factor: 2.2 (1 + 0.15*8)
Adjusted Area Factor: 1.9 (1 + (2.2-1)*0.75)

The Recharge can't be adjusted, because it's a pet power, so we shouldn't have to worry about variable recharge levels.

Proc Chance = PPM * (5.5 + 0.0)/(60 * 1.9)
Proc Chance = PPM * 5.5/114
Proc Chance = PPM * 0.04825

A 20% proc now will convert into a 3.75 PPM proc, and a 33% proc will convert into a 5.625 PPM proc under the proposed changes.

3.75 * 0.04825 = 0.1809
5.625 * 0.04825 = 0.2714

So, yes, Acid Mortar will see a slight reduction in proc rate, decreasing it's proc chances to ~18% with normal procs and ~27% with Ragnarok, but I'd hardly call it "ripped to shreds."
Note that ATO procs put into Acid Mortar will actually increase unilaterally in proc rate because the Recharge can't be reduced, but the PPM value of those procs will be increased by 25%.

Caltrops I'm afraid I can't help you with, as I don't feel like hunting down the pseudopet in City of Data to calculate it's Area Factor.

As a note regarding Traps, according to the Real Numbers info the powers Trip Mine and Time Bomb use to deal damage have 16 minute 40 second recharges, and Poison Trap's is 0.0 seconds, all which will break the PPM formula gloriously.