Let's chat seriously about PC Animals...

At least he's making recognizable shapes. For that matter, why are you adhering to the rules of spelling and grammar? Aren't you all about sticking it to the man, or something?

Well, there is the issue of your username, kinda. So there is that. ;p

The problem with this is that we can have a "stupid" category, and an "unrealistic" category; these do not have 100% overlap.

It is the Venn diagram overlap of "stupid and unrealistic" from which most of the problems in this thread flow.

I do not think superhero-themed stuff is stupid, really. I have been reading about it my whole life; my first little-girl crush was Batman, for crying out loud. I do draw the line at cartoon dogs barking rockets, dogs fighting with swords and [perhaps most epically] someone else's mention of a game where people swordfight using their feet, though.

Could anyone but chimps do that, really? Disgression.... but just saying.

[And yes, the fact that Star wars is cram-jam-packed with crap I find utterly slapstick - Ewoks being Exhibit #1 - is a big reason I have not been following the franchise for decades.]

In retrospect, Star Wars was an entirely bad example in the way I was trying to use it. It's still a good example of how a story should follow its own continuity and rules once it's established them.

LOL... damnit I hate it when I agree with GG...

if he drew with his left foot he would win 2 oscars

but I imagine that it would be considered too stupid to be acceptable here.

So let's instead go with the stupidity of a one armed archer who hangs upside down and pulls the bowstring with his teeth.

and appears to be an albino Predator???

With sensible shoes

Attacking a persons spelling, grammar and user name.

A sure sign your argument gave up the ghost some time a go, and are now reduced to name calling.
Just saying.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Because everyone knows the correct way to do that is to hang from one arm and shoot with your feet:

Because all rules are to be enforced by the letter 100% of the time with extreme rigidity? With a loose definition of the word 'rule' there.

A bit OCD there, I think!

No. The wolves need laser bees!

I prefer the assault rifle version

Aw damn you, you just sold me with that one.

This is one of the coolest comic books ever!!

Sometimes. Like, ya know, if they're building UFO's on the dark side of the Moon.

You were speaking that a 'anything harmless can be a threat supersized' or what not which is what I was commenting on. Supersize a wolf using a sword and you get the glaring weakness of being unable to properly defend himself from smaller foes because there is a radius of lethality one has to cross. Supersize a person with a sword and you get the same effect, get past the sword and the sword won't do anything to you.

A regular sized wolf would not have that issue as you won't be able to get past that arc of lethality because it's as close to their body as their teeth.

If, of course, the knight can block him. Of course, a single sword will be at a disadvantage vs a sword and shield, but a shield can't defend you completely. The animal's center of gravity is lower, therefore being able to create more force at a lower angle. And the animal can also use upward attacks to push their opponent back. There are disadvantages, yes, but there can be advantages too.

Firstly, the linked video isn't the end-all-be-all demo of how it'd work, just a demo showing that it *could* work. If that wolf were free to perform actions like he'd regularly react to vs what it were programmed to do, not only would it have a sword swinging to increase the range of its lethality, but it'd also have 2 forepaws and 2 hind paws. It could claw if it had claws as well as maneuver, roll and jump. A countered parry attack can only work if you can parry the weapon *away* from the target or *into* the target. If the example were a normal sized wolf simply blocking and riding the attack, either lowering their center of gravity to get a better foot hold, move with the attack to soften it or simply allow themselves to be overpowered and knocked in that direction could be viable ways to deal with a counter strike or parry.

But then this all hinges on the types of blows the foe throws. They'd all have to be low or mid which could easily be dodged.

Of course you can use footwork in either case. Just because their eyes are close to where they're holding their sword doesn't mean they can't see and dodge. It's pretty simple: where the wolf would be aiming to bite by centering the target area between its eyes, while using a sword it'd just shift that point to the right or left depending which side the sword is on. Better yet, to do any damage, it only has to pass the aimed point rather than lock onto the point. Despite what you may think, a dog can see in that particular arc.

Well, to 'shatter' a dog's teeth, it'd require considerable force that would probably just as soon sprain or shatter a human wrist...but then you'd have to have some odd mental image that what the dog does with his jaw is balance things on and only on their teeth. Their teeth simply lock things in place so that the sword doesn't slip away. It's the jaw that's actually absorbing the shock, not the teeth. To 'shatter' the teeth themselves would require direct force to the teeth. It's the same as a wrist, while it can take much of the trauma of impact, that's if you're doing it wrong. You don't punch with the wrist, you punch with the arm and you don't swing a sword with the wrist, you swing it with the arm and shoulder. Same with the dog-sword example, it's the jaw, neck and shoulders that are taking the stress.


And I challenge you to put a pencil in your mouth, hold it to one side in your teeth then switch sides by swinging it to the other side. You can do this without the end of the pencil 'magically' passing through your skull. I did it right now and I have cheeks. A dog doesn't. Just because the example animation may have seemed so doesn't mean it's somehow *the* point of contention so the whole concept falls apart.


The last statement makes little sense. A dog with a sword in their mouth doesn't somehow explain away beam rifles, imps made of fire or even the effectiveness of a human swordsman. It doesn't, in any way, 'override' the fantasy of anything because it doesn't directly or indirectly affect anything except your apparently fragile belief system.

It'd be different if I was saying link all magic to sword wielding wolves, but nothing of the sort is happening. What's common in a genre isn't important when the genre encapsulates a vast array of things you may not already agree with.

Mmmm, got anything else?

I dunno, how do Natural Human Heroes do it without a sword? Oh, that's right. They use their fists and feet. Natural weaponry. Who'd a thunk it?

Who says they'd get any set other than their own unique set or sets? The only animal PC set coming along is the Shapeshifter AT.

I'm not here to debate the feasibility of 4-Legged PC, because it's already coming.

I'm just here to say that wolves with swords in their mouths is a dumb idea, and there's no argument you can make, no video you can show, nothing you can do to change my mind. Because that is a dumb idea.

Also, resorting to personal insults? That's not really helping your case.

I am admiring his stylin' and profilin' boot-cut jeans and cowboy boots! However whats going on with his head confuses me.... Hey, what comic is this from anyways?

Your problem is that there is actually nothing stupid about this picture. We have 1. a guy 2. missing an arm 3. using his natural armament [teeth] to get the job done. Three things that make sense. His aim might be off, but it does not irreparably break my suspension of disbelief.

This is completely NOT on a level with stuff like Wookies celebrating Christmas on their home planet, to continue the Star Wars analogies and does anyone remember that wacky Christmas special, anyways?

[And who involved with the SW franchise sat around one day and brainstormed up "....you know what this franchise needs is some fuzzy little animated teddy bears! We will call them Ewoks!! Awesome idea, I will get right on it." ...scratch that I dont even WANT to know who it was.]

You replied


Additionally you are incorrect when you say "Supersize a person with a sword and you get the same effect, get past the sword and the sword won't do anything to you."

Assuming such would make you quite dead. In a real fight the knight chokes up on the sword using the rissaro. You see this area in front of the hilt on most large swords, including the one in your video, for precisely this reason. It allows the knight to hold the sword at almost the mid point and they can now maneuver the sword for close combat. As an example they can position the tip of the sword against someones chest which can literally next to their own chest and thrust the blade in. You don't get any closer then that unless your in bed


You also say "A regular sized wolf would not have that issue as you won't be able to get past that arc of lethality because it's as close to their body as their teeth." but you forgot to finish the sentence. It should read...

"A regular sized wolf would not have that issue as you won't be able to get past that arc of lethality because it's as close to their body as their teeth, which sadly can't be used since it has a useless sword in those teeth.

And unlike the human the wolf lacks a second appendage to choke up on and so the sword is useless compared to it's natural weapons of teeth.



You also seem to have forgotten to post the video link even though you said "I'm just going to keep posting various links demonstrating this fight." I take it you simply forgot and still feel this shows what you want. I'll post it so others coming into this discusion can see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJzQx_zEGoM



Much of the rest of your post refers to a "Normal Sized Wolf" but I notice we may may have different views on what size is "normal size wolf". I assumed you were talking about a normal fantasy sized wolf 4-5 feet tall and 250-300 pounds, but you make statements that imply a "Normal non fantasy" size of 2-3 feet and 50-160 pounds" Please specify what size and weight of wolf you are talking about when you refer to "Normal Sized Wolf"

Likewise unless you can refute what I said in the last post and have reiterated at the beginning of this one, that you admit that "super sizing a wolf with a sword gives you a glaring weakness", then I think I have proven my case.

I addressed that in a later paragraph, saying that fight is only a demo for what it'd look like, not the be-all-end-all of how such a creature would fight...because if Sif weren't limited by the animations given to him, he could have easily stomped whomever got within his legs. The point was, him wielding a weapon has an advantage of mass and power but the disadvantage of any large sized creature.


How many oversized wolves have you fought in video games? They'll always have a weakness, wielding a sword or not. One grave weakness of just a large wolf snapping at you is...they're snapping at you with their mouth...which is attached to their head...which has vulnerable points. Using a vulnerable point as a weapon leaves you open to be stabbed in the eye, through the mouth or having something shoved into the mouth, ultimately leaving the wolf unable to snap at all.

So your points aren't even that a sword makes a wolf weaker to the knight, just that a boss foe has weaknesses.


The video is to support the contention of what a wolf *looks* like should it wield a sword.


You can't be serious.

How big was that wolf? Like, 5x larger than a regular wolf? The point is, a person 5x larger than a regular human (so something like 30-35ft tall) would have the disadvantage of fighting a very small and slippery target. Worse yet is, if the sword is regular sized, one simply has to get past their sword to stab at their legs.

Have you fought giant people with weapons in video games before? Seriously?


This is...a bad and bias reply.

So a human using a sword gets the theoretical benefit of using their other appendages (mainly their other arm) but the animal...magically doesn't have any other limbs?



Because I can tell you haven't been clicking my links anyway. The 3 times I posted links, they were to 3 different videos of the same fight. You did post the 2nd link I put up which at least tells me you clicked that one.

Here's a different one.



I would more likely assume the larger side of the average sized wolf considering in CoH terms, everything tends to be scaled for larger sized avatars...so 6ft (around max for females) from nose to tail, 3.5ft from the shoulders and 150lb (they tend to reach 120lb on average).

I'd save size or weight advantages should be about even for a human. That is discounting an above average trained human or the CoH-ified character but you can scale the dog similarly.

But you haven't proven anything except you can pick particular arguments and discard what doesn't support your claims. I never commented on the effectiveness of a wolf *ONLY* using a sword and nothing else like agility, footwork, speed or their other damned limbs...likely since it's not like one expects a sword wielding human to do the same thing (discarding their agility, sight, footwork, momentum and their other damned arm).

I suppose we'll just have to agree to...let Cathulhu limited examples and disregard all else.

But still loving that 'shattered teeth' point you made earlier. Fraken hilarious and totally not even in the same ballpark as a shatter human wrist or fingers...those those totally absorb those cartoonish vibrations when you bang swords. *nods*

why settle for a panther?