Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)

Euron Greyjo... well, fine, Ned Stark then!

A cat "sings" the theme to Game of Thrones.

Why not?

We need to have some place to continue our SoF&I discussion after 11/30.

I kept mentioning my argument for R+L=J earlier in the thread but never got around to posting it, so I figured what the heck. Before posting I just wanted to give a little perspective on the format. This is taken directly from some of my messages (facebook Inbox) to an old college friend as they were close to finishing the book. So no, I don't expect most of you to have your mind blown as most of you know most of this stuff already. The point we were talking about is how every little detail in his books are or can be very important down the road. So I posed the simple question (that I do to all friends that read the books): "How are Jon Snows parents" They (like most) answer, "Ned and.....what was her name?" Here's my response(s): Enjoy.



Ok, theory 1 (what we're told) is that it was a servant girl named Wylla from Starfall (home of the Daynes) This seems to be the story that Ned wants others to know, with the exception of the girls name.

Theory 2 (easy speculation, but few clues) Ned and Ashara Dayne. Sister to Kingsguard member and considered the greatest knight Arthur Dayne. She was considered by many to be one of the most beautiful women in the 7 kingdoms. Also she threw herself from the tower at Starfall for unknown reasons. Some think it was because of Neds betrothal to Catelyn.

Theory 3 (prepare your brain, lots and lots of clues)

Let me set this up first. We know Ned to be a man of impeccable honor. He is seen many times thinking of the guilt he feels for hurting Catelyn. But what if its not guilt over fathering a child with another woman, instead it's guilt over telling Catelyn the LIE that he fathered a woman with another woman.

Ned several times refers to a promise he made to someone: his sister Lyanna as she was dying. What was this promise? We know Ned was a man who puts honor first and a promise to a dying sister would be just the thing Ned Stark would do, even if it hurt his wife. (Bells and alarms going off yet???)

What if Jon Snow's parents were actually Rheagar and Lyanna? (I'll give you time to soak it all in)

1st: Rheagar crowns Lyanna not his wife the Queen of Love and Beauty and the Tourny at Harrenhal and then allegedly kidnaps her, but what if he didn't really kidnap her and they ran off together.

2nd: when recalling the happenings of her rescue all we know is that she was in a bed of blood. Sounds a bit like child birth with possible complications. She then, dying begs Ned to make a promise to her. Maybe that promise was to tell everyone that Jon was the product of the spoils of war, knowing that Robert would surely kill Jon if he though there was another Targ out there to potentially claim the throne, not to mention out of jealousy. Now imagine Neds guilt, not for fathering a child, but for lying to the woman he'd never lie to.

3rd: he never tells Jon "You are my son." Instead he always says "You are my blood" Which is true even if he's his uncle.

4th: All of the Stark children are said to look like Tully's (Catelyn) with two exceptions Arya and Jon. Using a little logic it is also said that Arya looks just like Lyanna as a child. So instead of Jon looking so much like his "fake" father he actually gets his looks from his "real" mother.

5th: It is also noted that Ned wasn't that good of a swordsman, especially compared to his brother Brandon. Jon seems to be very capable, much like Rheagar who is said to be good at whatever he does. Also note that Ned never talks poorly of Rheagar, even at times giving him respect.

6. In Dany's vision in the House of the Undying she sees a Blue Rose growing from a chunk of ice. Blue Roses (winter roses) were Lyanna's favorites and the crown she was given by Rheagar was of winter roses. The chunk of ice could be..........the wall.

Now think of the implications of this theory and how that might fit into the story. It's not been proven true and there are a lot more clues. Those are just ones off the top of my head.

Mind Blown?
Ned wanted to write Jon a letter while he was imprisoned because there was something he had to tell him. He'd earlier promised him he's someday talk to him about his mother.

There are more clues upcoming, I'll let you soak them in as you get to them. But the implications of this really opens the story to all kinds of potential outcomes. It also makes you see some of the past story in a different light. Think of what that promise did to Ned, Catelyn and even Jon. In claiming Jon as his son he is not only hurting Catelyn he's also subjecting him to the shame of being a ******* and the coldness of a scorned Catelyn. But good ole Ned lived and died by his honor.

Now there is only one person alive who could even confirm all of this. The three kingsguard that were guarding her (and why would kingsguard be guarding a woman in a tower? hmmm) were all killed, she died there and it was just Ned (also dead). The only other one present was Howlen Reed who we haven't met yet. We only know his kids, who are with Bran. So the arrival of Howlen Reed to the story should shed some interesting light on the whole matter of Jon Snow
If you go back and look at GoT you'll see how many times Ned reflects on the guilt he feels regarding Jon. On the surface it all makes sense; man has child outside of his betrothal and hurts his wife for his infidelity.

But then when you add in the other theory, Ned's guilt really becomes more profound.

1. He has to tell his wife a lie that will forever wound their relationship. While it ultimately didn't ruin it, she was still hurt even after his death. He added salt in the wound even more by insisting on raising him in front of her and their legitimate children.

2. He raises Jon Snow as a ******* and the result of a tryst with a commoner and never get to know his "mother". He for years believes his mother to be a servant or a *****. He's also raised under the cold eye of Catelyn who does not care for him and he never gets to feel a mothers love. The truth is kept from him.

3. He partakes and continues a rebellion (that once he realizes the truth) was started over false pretenses (a kidnapping that may not have been a kidnapping). Mind you the King needed to be overthrown, but even Ned mentions that Rheagar seemed to be an honorable man and probably would have been a good king if he wasn't killed by Robert (under false pretenses). He also has to keep the lie of Jon Snow from Robert as a possible claimant to the Iron Throne, but he also has to carry the truth that his sister had a child with another man and maybe never loved Robert at all. Which is doubly sad as Robert always carried the torch for Lyanna and her loss was what possibly led to his destructive behavior, his marriage to Cersei and even his eventual demise. Imagine the weight of carrying all of that around. And that knowledge, kept in the name of honor led to his own beheading.

This scenario is so much richer than it being a simple matter of him fathering a child out of wedlock, something a man like Ned would never do in the first place.
I think we'll eventually see Howlin Reed at some important point in the story and he'll tell Jon, or someone to relay it to Jon or maybe the kids already know, but haven't said anything.

OR

I'm not sure of all the facts but Ned did request to Varys to write a letter to Jon while he was in prison. I'm not sure if he actually wrote it or if Varys passed it on to anyone (doubtful) but that could be another way he could find out.

OR

He may never find out and the theory may never play out.

It is very possible that Bran will play some role in this, sure. (Reasons? You'll see later) But this could be a whole lot of nothing or very well planned misdirection on Martins part. He has proven to be a very tricky creator afterall.

Promise me Ned (the PrtwP)


(Sidenote-this was over 6 months ago, so I could actually add quite a bit more to this now or didn't write everything I knew at the time as this was really just an unprepared coversation on FB)

But, if this scenario is valid, will Martin become aware that people have sussed out the likely deep plot item and change it up now.

Some interesting things and theories about the Daynes. What we know:

1. They have a position known as Sword of the Morning. It is not a title simply passed down each generation, it is given to someone worthy.
2. The Sword of the Morning is the keeper of the sword Dawn, which was forged from the heart of a fallen star.
3. After Arthur Dayne was killed at the Tower of Joy, Ned returned Dawn to Ashara at Starfall.


From the past and to the future:

1. There was the Long Night where the Others began attacking the South.
2. The battle where the Last Hero (Azor Azhai, PtwP, etc) used a sword Lightbringer to drive the Others back. This battle was known as The War of Dawn.
3. Winter is Coming

Think about it: Long Night. Sword of Morning. Dawn. One could say dawn/morning "brings light" from the night. Could Dawn be Lightbringer? Could Jon (or someone else) be named the new Sword of Morning? Could they be AAR, PtwP, the Last Hero?

Interestingly when Elio from Westeros was putting together some information on the Long Night and even Dawn he got some interesting information (or misinformation???) from Martin. When asked if the Long Night (and for that matter the Wall) was really 8000 years before the Conquest, Martin pointed out that many things like history was exaggerated or misremembered and that dates going that far back were likely inaccurate. He said it was probably more like a thousand years instead of 8000. And interestingly when asked how old Dawn was he said probably around a thousand years. Duh duh dummmmmmmmmm!


If any of this is credible, it could possibly be an alternative theory to Jon's heritage. Could Ashara Dayne be Jon's mother and could the father be Ned.......or possibly his brother Brandon through less than honorable means? The latter would be reason for Ned fabricating Jon's story to not let him grow up a product of a less than desirable union. Or could the new Sword of the Morning be someone else and the actual PtwP? Is there a Dayne child out there we don't know about?

From AWOIAF:

She may have given birth to a stillborn daughter, but it says nothing of her giving birth to twins or not.

I like the theory on Jon Snow . . . but since he is pledged to the Wall, has he waived his right to the Iron Throne? Just like the old Maester.

. . . the groundwork for the horn destroying the Wall has been laid, of course.