Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)

Any and all "deep doodoo" for Cersei is a good thing. Yes, she is one of the main antagonists in the series, but I would love to see her have a very unpleasent death sooner rather than later. I find her very annoying.

Oddly, Varys and whoever is with him are going to do all they can to keep Cersei alive until she's destroyed any faith anyone had left in the crown, and only let her hang herself when Aegon is ready to take the throne (which I don't think will happen, but that seems to be his plan).

Of course, leaving Cersei around could backfire badly. I'll be impressed if Varys lives to the end of the series.

The biggest possible twist to the story would be a humbled but resurgent Cersei somehow save the Realm.

Huge casting news from SDCC here.

I'm liking the looks of the Reeds, Shireen, the Queen of Thorns, and definitely Thoros!

Is it next season yet?!

A friend and I were having a text conversation yesterday. (They are reading book 5 at the moment)

Anyway, greyscale. Biologic? Mystical curse? Is there a real world analog or inspiration?

They had asked me if greyscale was Westerosi for leprosy. While I think there are comparisons but obviously different signs and symptoms, I have always been under the impression that there is something supernatural/curse like about greyscale. Or at least there is something more to it. I realize that medieval cultures would probably see a lot of biological things as divine or curse, but something about greyscale has always seemed that it might go that way, to me at least.

Thoughts?

I assumed greyscale was something like leprosy, but I forget how the disease works. Does it actually turn you to stone? If so, it seems like a mystical malady. If it just makes your skin (and flesh) fall off until you eventually die, then it feels more like a biological disease.

It is said to turn your lips and tongue to stone, whether that is just a descriptive or medieval explanation or actually accurate is never really said.

It calcifies the flesh is how it's described IIRC. So it's not literal stone, but close enough for a society without advanced enough science to tell the difference.

Yup...not literally stone

I always thought of it as a natural disease that is just thought of as a magical or divine curse in the same way that medieval people often though disease was a curse. Then again, the world of A Song of Ice and Fire has lots of things that are real which in our world would be fantastic (but false) explanations for natural phenomena. So maybe it's both.

My thoughts on greyscale/the Grey Death:

Real world analogues: The Grey Death, the more virulent form that calcifies the victim's entire body, seems to be based on diseases like those making up the bubonic plague (later collectively tagged by historians as the Black Death), cholera, typhoid, and other widespread epidemics. Greyscale, the less severe form that "merely" disfigures the victim and turns parts of his body to stone, seems based on leprosy (in that it can be disfiguring and that its society is frightened of it) in its appearance. Conceptually, the two diseases are closer to the various, different forms of "the plague" that ran rampant in Europe in the 1300's, for instance; like greyscale/grey death, there were several similar illnesses with different levels of virulence and lethality.

Another comparison I find useful is between smallpox, which is both disfiguring and lethal (like Grey Death), and cowpox, which can be disfiguring but generally wasn't otherwise dangerous (like greyscale). As the name "cow"pox suggests, this was the disease that was used to develop the vaccine (from the Latin term for "cow") for smallpox, by infecting people with a weaker form of the disease to build their resistance to the deadly form. (Note for pedants: Yes, I know I'm greatly simplifying things here.) I imagine that if the world of the Seven Kingdoms survives another few centuries, some enterprising Maester with both medical and magical (see below) knowledge will figure out a way to use greyscale to prevent Grey Death.

Is it supernatural?: For the first several books, I would have said "no." Shireen's illness seems like a purely physical issue. Then I read the latest book, where Tyrion travels through regions depopulated by Grey Death (and we first hear about Grey Death in more detail). The presentation strongly suggests a supernatural, though mindless, force to me, even if the disease's vectors, like tainted water and personal contact, are more or less natural. If I had to make a choice (and one doesn't necessarily have to), I'd say "supernatural disease that can appear natural," but my choice would be a cautious one.

But the whole question leads me to wonder what constitutes "supernatural" in a low-fantasy series like this, anyway. Some phenomena, like Danaerys's vision in the second book, seem blatantly supernatural. Other elements not found in the real world, such as some of the Esteros ethnicities with no real-world counterparts, are blatantly non-real, but definitely not supernatural.

But there are plenty of edge cases. Are the dragons supernatural creatures? Yes, they aren't found in the real world, and their bone structure and ability to breath fire don't appear in any real creature, but they live according to a set of consistent physical laws. Moreover, they seem like animals, though powerful ones, not monsters. (Contrast, say, the dragons of the popular Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher, the dragons from Tolkien's Middle Earth books, or the dragons of Chinese tales, which appear to be primarily supernatural, cosmic forces [whether good or evil] with reptilian shapes.) Are skinwalkers supernatural (i.e., magical), or is their talent more like the fantasy equivalent of tongue rolling or being double-jointed? And what about the odd seasonal patterns? Clearly, they bear no resemblance to real world climatology, but they're definitely the "natural" way things operate for the world of the Seven Kingdoms.

Maybe we want to define what we mean by "supernatural" more thoroughly.

Found this quote from GRRM on the progress of book 6:

A quick question: I was finally making a bit of progress through Dance with Dragons (before all my attention got devoured by a shiny new game) and I got to the part where Tyrion starts travelling with Griff. Who is Griff, really? I feel like I should know, and the banter between him and Tyrion seemed to hint at the identity as if I should know...

I think the only real spoiler one needs while reading this series is "Don't get attached to anyone not named Tyrion."

Slightly unrelated note, I've just found you can buy a life-sized replica of the Iron Throne: $30k.

Ah, thankee. My brain can let go of that niggling detail now and commence with pestering me about other things it can't quite recall - probably some sort of song lyric.

Interesting you bring up Griff/Connington right after we have a discussion on greyscale.

Duh duh dummmmm!

New topic time! Share your opinion.

Of all the candidates, if it weren't for death or misfortune, who do you feel would be best suited to sit the Iron Throne.
(Not who you think will actually win it, who do you think should get it)

Go!

Ned Stark, of course.