Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-04-12 11:47 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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GRIFF: And how you you plan on pleasing the Queen?|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Tyrion's story has been steadily declining since book 2. He can't continue doing nothing and have script immunity forever.
 But then again, I really hope all that story leads somewhere. Right now he just seems to be serving as the kind of character GRRM puts in place to be a witness to some perhaps-important events, or to nudging events in a particular direction. Perhaps in an effort to cut down on the number of PoV characters. I had really looked forward to see the chemistry between Tyrion and Daenerys, in book five, so I was a little disappointed when Tyrion's journey just dragged on and on. |
TYRION: With my tongue.
I enjoyed Tyrion's journey quite a bit in ADwD. It was fun finally seeing him outside of Kings Landing, where he'd been stuck for two books. And quite frankly, I don't see any meeting between Danaerys and Tyrion going particularly well for either of them.
And there's no such thing as "plot immunity" in this book. All characters exist to serve the plot, either through their life or their death. Tyrion will live as long as he serves the story Martin is telling.
Global name: @k26dp
FYI, production is starting July 9th for Season 3 which means casting news will coming hot and fast any time now. Can't wait!
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I can't help imagining Martin's mind right now, that he has a little bit more pressure to get books 6 and 7 out now( there was a 6 year wait between books 4 & 5)
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Yes, he loves her, but it is a very flawed love . . . because he is a very flawed person. He doesn't spend significant time with her, and doesn't really take direct responsibility to watch over her, or he wouldn't allow that nutcase of a jester to be around her all the time. But if she was obviously threatened, he would die to protect her.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Fun discussion topic time.........
(I pinched this from the Westeros forums. I saw the thread title and thought "what a stupid subject", then I saw how many different responses it got and was hooked.) Stannis truely loves his daughter Shireen. Yes or No? Discuss. (Personally I say yes and she may be the only person he does love) |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
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Me neither. But on the other hand, I don't think Daenerys could be any more dangerous than with Tyrion's council. It'd be very interesting to see what happened when they met.|
Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
I enjoyed Tyrion's journey quite a bit in ADwD. It was fun finally seeing him outside of Kings Landing, where he'd been stuck for two books. And quite frankly, I don't see any meeting between Danaerys and Tyrion going particularly well for either of them.
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I think, if I had not been hooked on his destination from the start, I'd probably have been able to enjoy the journey more. But as it was, it just seemed to drag on more and more with every little side-adventure.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I'll have to go with a "Sure, why not?" on this one.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Stannis truely loves his daughter Shireen. Yes or No? Discuss.
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I think, in this case, Stannis comes off as a pretty typical "career dad". Sure, he loves his daughter, but that doesn't stop him from spending every waking hour 'at work'.
It's more of a theoretical love. But I don't think he's that much different from most other lords of Westeros, in that regard.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Quote:
The first rule or warning to anyone reading ASoIaF: if any character comes up with a plan of some sort, 95% of the time it will fail, and fail spectacularly and/or heartbreakingly.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I think, if I had not been hooked on his destination from the start, I'd probably have been able to enjoy the journey more. But as it was, it just seemed to drag on more and more with every little side-adventure.
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Global name: @k26dp
Talk of resolving plot threads? I'm more concerned about more plot threads that seem to keep emerging with each book. We still have a lot from the first 3 books, to introduce in books 4/5:
1. Griff / Jon Connington
2. Aegon or Faux Aegon
3. The Sphinx
4. Not Pate (also not the Pig Boy)
5. Warrior's Sons / Poor Fellows / newly militarized Church
6. Dr, Frankenstein, i.e. Qyburn
7. Tycho Nestoris, envoy of the Iron Bank
8. The Martells
(I included books 4 & 5 together, as essentially they are one book divided into two.)
Granted, some of these are fairly minor characters, but, in my experience, Martin doesn't really spend time on a lot of minor characters. It may be that some will just disappear with no more than a hand wave, but I expect each of these will have some important role to play, so that means more storyline. I just hope that we are nearing the end of introducing new characters, and working more towards resolving any lingering ones.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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This is more or less what I was wondering when I asked whether the remaining plot threads and character arcs could be wrapped up in just two more books.
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Originally Posted by Frost Warden
Talk of resolving plot threads? I'm more concerned about more plot threads that seem to keep emerging with each book. We still have a lot from the first 3 books, to introduce in books 4/5:
1. Griff / Jon Connington 2. Aegon or Faux Aegon 3. The Sphinx 4. Not Pate (also not the Pig Boy) 5. Warrior's Sons / Poor Fellows / newly militarized Church 6. Dr, Frankenstein, i.e. Qyburn 7. Tycho Nestoris, envoy of the Iron Bank 8. The Martells (I included books 4 & 5 together, as essentially they are one book divided into two.) Granted, some of these are fairly minor characters, but, in my experience, Martin doesn't really spend time on a lot of minor characters. It may be that some will just disappear with no more than a hand wave, but I expect each of these will have some important role to play, so that means more storyline. I just hope that we are nearing the end of introducing new characters, and working more towards resolving any lingering ones. |
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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Lot's O' Red Herrings in there.
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Originally Posted by Frost Warden
Talk of resolving plot threads? I'm more concerned about more plot threads that seem to keep emerging with each book. We still have a lot from the first 3 books, to introduce in books 4/5:
1. Griff / Jon Connington 2. Aegon or Faux Aegon 3. The Sphinx 4. Not Pate (also not the Pig Boy) 5. Warrior's Sons / Poor Fellows / newly militarized Church 6. Dr, Frankenstein, i.e. Qyburn 7. Tycho Nestoris, envoy of the Iron Bank 8. The Martells . |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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It didn't fail. It got dragged on and on with amusing little side-adventures and eventually pushed to book 6. |
Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
The first rule or warning to anyone reading ASoIaF: if any character comes up with a plan of some sort, 95% of the time it will fail, and fail spectacularly and/or heartbreakingly.
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In hindsight, the 'plan', such as it were, couldn't come to some conclusion in book 5 because Tyrion was too useful, from a narrative standpoint, where he was. The things he witness during his Series of Misadventures are important to the plot (even when he doesn't get involved directly) and without him there, GRRM would have to introduce even more PoV characters to give us an insight into what's happening.
And, of course, 'The Humbling of Tyrion' might serve a greater purpose, as well.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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There's a dragon who dragged his mother off to the Dothraki Sea that may disagree with you. |
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
It didn't fail. It got dragged on and on with amusing little side-adventures and eventually pushed to book 6.
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Global name: @k26dp
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I'm beginning to think most of Dance was a Red Herring...|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Lot's O' Red Herrings in there.
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1. After Q's death, what play to the Martells have?
2. Griff/Connington: is there really enough support for them to make a run at the Throne? Having Varys on your side is great, but this supposed that people (and by people of course I mean the nobility) really want another Dragon on the Iron Throne.
3. The Iron Bank guy might actually amount to something. He has a vested interest in sticking with Stannis, unless he turns out to be a bad investment, and then they might back someone else to get their money.
4. I think the Militarized Chuch will matter down the line, just not sure when.
5. Qyburn made his monster, but we haven't seen Strong Robert do anything yet...
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I would tend to agree, but he's started stories for most of them. It would be pretty poor if he left them to blow in the wind.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Lot's O' Red Herrings in there.
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I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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What does that have to do with Tyrion getting caught up in side-quests? Are you saying that Drogon masterminded all that? Because that would be weird.
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Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
There's a dragon who dragged his mother off to the Dothraki Sea that may disagree with you.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Weird and AWESOME! But it's one of the few things I can say with certainty that won't happen.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
What does that have to do with Tyrion getting caught up in side-quests? Are you saying that Drogon masterminded all that? Because that would be weird.
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I don't really see anything in this series as a red herring. A Song of Ice and Fire, despite having become a poster child for fantasy and genre fiction in general recently, has a very, very unusual structure. Unlike most multi-book series, where each novel has an individual arc (a distinct beginning, middle, and end, including a climax and a resolution of the issues raised in the plot) to it, this series is a single, enormous story with one arc, which can be briefly summarized as "the Seven Kingdoms fall apart and people seek to control things." Along the way, characters move in and (rarely) out, and specific events occur. But I don't think of, say, that thing about the Iron Bank (which I'd totally forgotten until this thread brought it up) as any more or less a "red herring" than what the Ironborn ate at their feast when they conquered the Martell dominions. Each thing is an incident, an ornament, that we pass by on the way to seeing everything fall apart in one immense finale in the last book.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
I'm not sure I entirely agree with your plot summary.
I think it's more a case of "can anyone unite the warring factions in order to face an overwhelming external threat, or is everyone doomed?"
(and I think "everyone dies" is an entirely possible outcome in this story.)
I really should do something about this signature.
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I originally thought so, too, but given that we're at the fifth of seven planned books and are still getting presented with new warring factions rather than seeing the external threat begin to wipe them out, now I'm not so sure. I've come to see the dissolution more as the point of the story and less as part of the set-up for the primary conflict. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I'm not sure I entirely agree with your plot summary.
I think it's more a case of "can anyone unite the warring factions in order to face an overwhelming external threat, or is everyone doomed?" |
Regardless, I stand by my point about "nothing/everything is a red herring."
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Quote:
First off, there's no "side-quests". His story is his story, and he and Dany will either meet up or not depending on how such a meeting would serve the plot. Expectations on plot events in a book belong to the reader, and Martin has no obligation to fulfil them. |
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
What does that have to do with Tyrion getting caught up in side-quests? Are you saying that Drogon masterminded all that? Because that would be weird.
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My comment is that prospects for a Dany-Tyrion meet-up look even more dismal now than after Book 3, so by assuming that it will happen in Book 6 you are probably setting yourself up for more disappointment.
Global name: @k26dp
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1. The Martells are in a facinating position. They have a seat on the Small Council, one that is about to be filled. They are sending Arienne to treat with Connington (and may be the first of the major houses to find out about Young Aegon). It could be that Dany loses out from Quentin's death more so than the Martells, because I don't see a scenario where the forces of Young Aegon and Dany work in harmony.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I'm beginning to think most of Dance was a Red Herring...
1. After Q's death, what play to the Martells have? 2. Griff/Connington: is there really enough support for them to make a run at the Throne? Having Varys on your side is great, but this supposed that people (and by people of course I mean the nobility) really want another Dragon on the Iron Throne. 3. The Iron Bank guy might actually amount to something. He has a vested interest in sticking with Stannis, unless he turns out to be a bad investment, and then they might back someone else to get their money. 4. I think the Militarized Chuch will matter down the line, just not sure when. 5. Qyburn made his monster, but we haven't seen Strong Robert do anything yet... |
2. If the Stormlands and Dorne back Aegon, and I think they will, anything is possible. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is falling apart, the Riverlands are in shables and will soon be starving, the North has to resolve the Stannis-Bolton mess (and winter is coming), and who knows how Littlefinger will play things.
3. The Power of the Pocketbook has been a recurring theme in ASoIaF.
4. The Faith is a huge wildcard right now. I think something with Margaery Tyrell's trial is going to go horribly. Kings Landing is a powerkeg, and open conflict between the Tyrells and the Faith Militant in the streets could destroy the power of Highgarden.
5. And something will definitely go crazy at Cersei's trial-by-combat. I hope Sandor Clegane is involved.
Global name: @k26dp
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This x1,000. I'm still holding on to that sliver of hope that he's still alive.
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Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
5. And something will definitely go crazy at Cersei's trial-by-combat. I hope Sandor Clegane is involved.
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Arc 180901: Flight of the Dreadnought
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I think it's way more than a sliver. Pretty sure the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle that Brienne comes across is Sandor.
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Originally Posted by Hestis
This x1,000. I'm still holding on to that sliver of hope that he's still alive.
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Global name: @k26dp
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1. It should be noted young Aegon's mother was a Martell, and its been pretty clear, they are still Targ loyalists, so far they've been sitting on the sidelines in terms of the War of the Five Kings, but I expect that to change once they link up with Aegion.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I'm beginning to think most of Dance was a Red Herring...
1. After Q's death, what play to the Martells have? 2. Griff/Connington: is there really enough support for them to make a run at the Throne? Having Varys on your side is great, but this supposed that people (and by people of course I mean the nobility) really want another Dragon on the Iron Throne. 3. The Iron Bank guy might actually amount to something. He has a vested interest in sticking with Stannis, unless he turns out to be a bad investment, and then they might back someone else to get their money. 4. I think the Militarized Chuch will matter down the line, just not sure when. 5. Qyburn made his monster, but we haven't seen Strong Robert do anything yet... |
2. See above
3. Right now, their willing to back anyone who isn't Cersei, since she has royally POed them off, and right now Stanis is the only one left with a remote chance, once Aegon or Dany appears on the board, that may very well change.
4. In a way it already has, hence why she is in the pickle she is in
5. I think there is a potential for huge backfire if it is Q's monster, if Strong Robert is exposed for what he is publically, I can see the Faith Militant and others not exactly having a positive reaction.
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Just because they are red herrings doesn't mean he won't complete the threads. It just means that they are distractions or subterfuge. |
Originally Posted by Frost Warden
I would tend to agree, but he's started stories for most of them. It would be pretty poor if he left them to blow in the wind.
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I don't buy Aegon being real one bit. But his story will be finished........and it won't be pretty for Aegon or Connington. The Iron Bank will have significance in a couple of different ways. (If you've read any of the pre-released chapters you'll know what I'm talking about) 1. Who they end up backing 2. Collecting debts from the crown (i.e. more deep doodoo for Cersei....possibly involving Faceless Men) I think the militirized church is already in play in weakening the crown. And Robert Strong is just a nice piece of flavor storyline, but not significant in the grand scheme.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
(I pinched this from the Westeros forums. I saw the thread title and thought "what a stupid subject", then I saw how many different responses it got and was hooked.)
Stannis truely loves his daughter Shireen. Yes or No? Discuss.
(Personally I say yes and she may be the only person he does love)
I don't actually think that they've shared a scene together.
Global name: @k26dp