genuine need or company spite? *spoilers*
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-03-29 18:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That's the drawback to Paragon Studios' reliance on instanced mission conent. They need to add either more mission options in the shared world or create more zone-wide events if players are ever going to break out of the single-player mentality.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The same could be said of Dark Astoria and the first 20 levels of Praetoria, for that matter.
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| I think the statement that this was the most interesting thing they could think of to do with these characters was on the money. I feel like the current writers, rather than build on the game's lore and grow characters, would prefer to bulldoze to make room for what they want. |
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If by "fixed" you mean "baby successfully thrown out with bathwater".
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
If by "fixed" you mean "baby successfully thrown out with bathwater".
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Pretty much, AE the only place where you can fight enemies harder than anything else in the game, for less reward.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I thought that was PvP.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Pretty much, AE the only place where you can fight enemies harder than anything else in the game, for less reward.
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My characters at Virtueverse
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Only if your PVP opponents can't pass the Turing Test.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
I thought that was PvP.
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Okay. Suppose you were living in a flat with a roommate. Suppose after coming back home after a weekend away you found your things were in a mess like someone had looked through them. You know your roommate doesn't do that.|
Originally Posted by Tyger
Intrepid Informer Issue 12
One. Singular. The whole guessing game on the forum here revolved around it till it was spoiled by marketing and their 'Salute to Statesman' loyalty program. |
You ask your roommate "Did you let someone into my room?" and they, with full honesty, answer "no."
Later on it turns out your roommate threw a party and let two of the guests into your room, and they looked through your stuff.
You confront your roommate and they say, "Well you only asked if I let someone in here, meaning one person. I didn't let in one person, I let in two. So I wasn't lying."
Do you reply with "fair enough, I should've been more specific"?
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I think this is due more to the genre than anything else. I would expect that most people think of super heroes as solo operatives who team up against greater threats due to our experiences from reading the comic books.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
That's the drawback to Paragon Studios' reliance on instanced mission conent. They need to add either more mission options in the shared world or create more zone-wide events if players are ever going to break out of the single-player mentality.
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The only team coming to my mind right now that is a group first is the Fantastic Four but when I think of the other groups of heroes they are all soloists who teamed up: JLA, Avengers, etc.
While MMOs started principally from being online versions of DnD where people are grouped and hopefully balanced groups so we wanted our tanker, buffer/debuffer, damage dealer and healer .
That is how I at least see how the games came about and what people expected from them.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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There's also the industry trend away from open-environment questing to instanced content as MMORPGs move away from the sandbox model and toward the theme park one.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I think this is due more to the genre than anything else. I would expect that most people think of super heroes as solo operatives who team up against greater threats due to our experiences from reading the comic books.
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| The only team coming to my mind right now that is a group first is the Fantastic Four but when I think of the other groups of heroes they are all soloists who teamed up: JLA, Avengers, etc. |
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
That's the drawback to Paragon Studios' reliance on instanced mission conent. They need to add either more mission options in the shared world or create more zone-wide events if players are ever going to break out of the single-player mentality.
That's literally the approach the devs took with Galaxy City. Even the well-received revamp of Dark Astoria is a complete break with the original version in terms of continuity. Positron has stated in the forums that it's easier for them to start from scratch when it comes to refurbishing old content, as though that justifies the schism between CoH Freedom and CoH Classic. |
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
There's also the industry trend away from open-environment questing to instanced content as MMORPGs move away from the sandbox model and toward the theme park one.
The X-Men and its innumerable spin-offs are probably the best fit for a superheroic MMO environment. (The Fantastic Four are as much a disfunctional family as a team, and the JLA are like the Kiwanis with superpowers.) |
Based upon experiences in a couple other MMOs, I also don't get the sense that many developers know how to do open world stuff or that it takes more effort than to create the closed instances.
Of course the way the games are let me often repeat the line from "Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer" "Let's be independent together."
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I like that the devs are finally committing to new content on a monthly basis. That's something I'd asked for and expected years ago, when I first joined the game.
However, with one new arc a month and basically one writer ... I don't know if we're going to see the variety of stories I'd like to see, at least not within a human timespan.
I prefer the idea of a bullpen, with several writers submitting material of different lengths, subject matters, and styles, over mega arcs written by one author.
I'd go with unfortunate implications. Psyche's death is pretty clearly (at least to me) meant to drive the Manticore storyline. Psyche's entire relevance lately is only to define him; she has no real purpose otherwise. I think there was a Sister Flame quote at the time of the wedding about stopping being superheroes and having babies or something like that. She was fairly close. As a character Psyche ceased to be an independant entity and became no more than another way to define Manticore. She was done as far as character development goes at that point. Possibly sexist, I suppose, but not spiteful towards Jack. And I don't think it was sexist so much as they didn't think it through. It looks bad that she was married and then done as an individual while here husband gets character development and storylines, but I think they weren't looking at it as a whole. They have two seperate stories, the marriage and Manticore's fall, and just never considered how they looked together.
That she was Jack's creation is just bad timing. They'd have killed off anyone who was married to Manticore no matter which developer was responsible for their creation. It's obvious he's being set up for a clear switch to vigilante and possibly even towards villain as the game defines the alignments.
So no intended spite, it's just that Paragon Studios doesn't think about how their storylines intertwine after they move on to the next shiny thing.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
The SSA would be more interesting if Arachnos started moving in on Paragon City, but no such thing is happening.
Lord Recluse is not taking advantage of this vacuum at all. Everything remains stagnant, save for the NPCs being removed to prevent an obvious conflict.
I think this was not planned well. Even if you killed the entire Freedom Phalanx it means NOTHING if you're not prepared to move the game world beyond a stagnant echo of 7 years ago. It means nothing if the rest of the game is unaffected by it.
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There's a lot of problems with the AE, and a lot of those problems rest with decisions by the Devs. But clamping down on the exploit frenzy was not one of those bad decisions. The bad decision was not taking more draconian steps like shutting down the AE (or simply shutting off all rewards) until better anti-exploit clamps were put in place.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
If by "fixed" you mean "baby successfully thrown out with bathwater".
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But this discussion is a side show from CactusBrawler who's still angry and inappropriately injecting it into this thread. His reason being that Posi was a meany-head in the way he dealt with good, angelic AE players who in no way were bad actors in the whole affair, therefore, of course, he killed Statesman and Sister Psyche out of pure unadulterated spite, because, you know, that's the way he is!!!!!!1!!1
Ironclad logic there.
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What you might identify as spite, I identify as hilarity.
Yes I can clearly see the spite part of this and also I can see why the team would need to vent said frustrations.
I think of all the things mr states has done to kill the fun and the only thing I want to do is tie him to a wheelchair and send him down as many flights of stairs as pobbisil.
I remember when Warwitch said "We are going to stop doing the things that aren't fun" since then none of my favorite powersets have been nerfed, many of them have been buffed, and I was kind of holding onto the hope that Focused accuracy would be returned to it's former glory <wishful thinking I know>
I'm also seeing improvements to the game that we would NEVER have gotten under thumb of States.
The i13 base editing and more recently those awesome new base editing floaty tools? yeah, those would have never happened, that was just an example.
I'm sure if the team was allowed to speak freely they could go on quite the tangent on how states was driving the game into an early grave.
so yeah, kill off his lore. Kill it as hatefully and deliberately as pobbisil.
Take pictures of the masses pointing and laughing!
Make it die in as many fires as can be lit!
Put it's hair in pigtails, make it wear a pretty blue dress with frills and ribbons call it "Suzan" then PUSH IT IN THE DIRT!
Make it eat mudpies!
Feed it dirty diapers!
Dip it honey and let it play in the ants!
Make it do homework and then feed that homework to the dogs!
Make it eat alot of watermelon, send it to bed then beat it in the morning for wet sheets!
I'm jaded wheeeeee!
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
Honestly, the only opinion I've had regarding the death of Statesman? "Gee, it's about time they got rid of their Superman rip-off."
He was (to me) far more a rip-off toon than Mantibat ever was.
Where to find me after the end:
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Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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For the most part, the problem with Positron's reaction to the AE issues was they he did too little, too late, not that he overreacted.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
There's a lot of problems with the AE, and a lot of those problems rest with decisions by the Devs. But clamping down on the exploit frenzy was not one of those bad decisions. The bad decision was not taking more draconian steps like shutting down the AE (or simply shutting off all rewards) until better anti-exploit clamps were put in place.
But this discussion is a side show from CactusBrawler who's still angry and inappropriately injecting it into this thread. His reason being that Posi was a meany-head in the way he dealt with good, angelic AE players who in no way were bad actors in the whole affair, therefore, of course, he killed Statesman and Sister Psyche out of pure unadulterated spite, because, you know, that's the way he is!!!!!!1!!1 Ironclad logic there. |
During beta, I made a rather passionate plea to the devs to be very cognizant of the fact that they only had one real chance to make a first impression with the AE, and it was better to delay it than launch it with critical flaws. The first impression would grow to dominate people's attitudes and opinions about the AE for a long time to come.
My greatest regret regarding that is that I made that plea for something I thought was pretty important, but failed to realize the devs were not already thinking this exact thing about exploitive behavior which I thought was too obvious to mention. If I knew then what I know know, I would have spent all of my energy back then advocating to the devs to delay the AE completely until the exploits were removed, knowing full well just what the ramifications of what I was asking were in a production sense.
Claims that Positron overreacted are to me incredibly darkly amusing. He did far less than I would have done, and he did it with far less technological firepower than I would have mustered.
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I was thinking rather that just as the devs took solely negative measures to fix AE (not simply shutting down exploits, but also nerfing XP and rewards) without also implementing positive ones (e.g improving the AE mission interface, making it easier to find particular types of missions or styles of play, working Architect Entertainment better into in-game lore), killing off prominent NPCs without enriching their characters or backstories is a baby-bathwater jettisoning maneuver.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
There's a lot of problems with the AE, and a lot of those problems rest with decisions by the Devs. But clamping down on the exploit frenzy was not one of those bad decisions. The bad decision was not taking more draconian steps like shutting down the AE (or simply shutting off all rewards) until better anti-exploit clamps were put in place.
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The only negative characteristic which I've attributed to the developers over the years is a certain naivete regarding the players. How we think and react, and what mischief we'll get up to, apparently seem alien to at least some of them. I can imagine Positron reading this thread, scratching his head and thinking "Wait, what? I'm petty and vindictive?"
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My greatest regret regarding that is that I made that plea for something I thought was pretty important, but failed to realize the devs were not already thinking this exact thing about exploitive behavior which I thought was too obvious to mention.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Fine. I put your name in the name field and looked for the keyword "interview", and looked at the posts meeting those criteria made in the last three months.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
If you feel inclined to verify that conclusion, you're welcome to search through my posts for the last couple of months. You'll find the links to the interviews that I've posted in the past, with the words from Matt Miller's mouth. I feel no strong incentive to dig them up again myself when they've been gone over thoroughly already in other threads.
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Thread one.
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| We knew with Freedom we had a chance to have a new starting point for players, and one of the things we wanted to do was make them the star of their own game, and not have the NPCs overshadow them. Once we had this mindset, killing off Statesman just seemed like a good logical place to go with the story. |
Thread two.
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| He's a defining character for the City of Heroes brand, so removing him entirely like that would be very difficult, even if we wanted to. |
Here is the Intrepid Informer with the quote that you've probably selectively etched into your memory:
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| Killing off the character meant a lot of things to a lot of people, but for me it was the ultimate declaration that City of Heroes has grown up and left the nest from which it was born. |
Tell me, at what point did you decide to ignore the part where killing Statesman had been previously discussed as a group, decided against, then brought up again much later and discussed as a group again, where it was decided that it was a more acceptable plot line? How can you be sure that a desire to separate Paragon from its roots at Cryptic was the actual motivation for deciding to kill Statesman and/or Sister Psyche? How would you know if the statement above isn't just how Miller ended up feeling about the death of Statesman, instead of being at cause for it?
Look at this!
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| I'd love to see your thoughts on this twist in the storyline. If you'd like, you can use the hashtag #Statesman on Twitter to express yourself. Tell us what you think, and where you think the story can or should go in the future. |
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Have you seen what they did to the AE?
They took something unique to City of heroes, something no other MMO had done before. And destroyed it because people weren't playing how Positron wanted. To paraphrase black ops. "3000 people used to use the AE, now it's a ghost town." And let's not get started on his parting words on removing rewards from Incarnate trials as you unlock slots. Better hope that enough people are running the newer trials to ensure the old ones don't get the AE treatment. |
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No, no, no. Statesman was a HERO/Champions Defender rip off (long before Cryptic bought the Champion IP and CO came into existence). Defender was a Superman rip off.|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
Honestly, the only opinion I've had regarding the death of Statesman? "Gee, it's about time they got rid of their Superman rip-off."
He was (to me) far more a rip-off toon than Mantibat ever was. |
See? (Hey DC <waves hand>... this is not the Superman rip off you're looking for.)
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Really, even if it wasn't meat to be out of spite, it felt it. That's what it comes down to.
When people were guessing who would die, there were plenty who thought it would be Statesman to get rid of Jack, but they hoped it would be someone else.
Losing Sister Psyche just made it seem even more so, when they could of gotten rid of so many. And it's not like superteams havent had multiple psychics on a team before, so the idea of needing to get rid of Sister Psyche so they could put Penny on the team is silly.
Not to mention, even with these deaths, I haven't seen anything that puts my character as the top hero of the city, and I don't even want that.
If the game says your the top hero, then what are all the other characters you've teamed with and done all the content with.
Personally, I just want to see the game treat you like an A lister, more so if you actually show it, instead of the Superman icon status.
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... Am I the only one waiting eagerly in anticipation for what they might do next? I have a habit of reserving judgement until long after I know that things are over with. With every end is a beginning, and these updates can let us do all sorts of things.
As far as all of the events go, I'm standing firmly neutral on most of the events that took place. I lack any sort of attachment to those characters, other than them being those guys I have to occasionally deal with while playing redside. But, regardless I am looking forward to seeing what is done with Penelope Yin, and how the Phalanx will change under new leadership. There is a lot of potential, and I would like to explore those avenues before demanding a do-over.
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He's too busy stapling pictures of Jack to the backs of orphaned kittens and ordering his minions to chase them around the office with baseball bats.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
I can imagine Positron reading this thread, scratching his head and thinking "Wait, what? I'm petty and vindictive?"
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You're not |
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
... Am I the only one waiting eagerly in anticipation for what they might do next?
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@Golden Girl
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They took something unique to City of heroes, something no other MMO had done before.
And destroyed it because people weren't playing how Positron wanted.
@Golden Girl
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