genuine need or company spite? *spoilers*
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-03-29 18:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Telling players that if they hit 50 in a couple of hours they'd have those avatars banned is hardly crazy, or nasty - something drastic needed to be done to get the exploiters' attention and show them that cheating on that scale wasn't acceptable.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
If his crazy nasty rant to the players
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
So randomly: gathering up some interesting points some folks have made, I'm starting to think that it wasn't a question of "why Kill States and Psyche" but rather "why not?" if we are to assume just about ALL guesses are actually right.
-States and Psyche had become honestly stagnant characters, and while good writing could have saved them it wouldn't have also opened up a lot of development for EVERYONE ELSE if they died.
-Statesman and Psyche were not just among the best of the old vanguard, but were literally some of the oldest known heroes alive. (Dream Doctor, Dark Watcher, and Lady Grey as well) killing them was sort of, since they could not die naturally, probably meant to be like watching your grandfather or mother pass away and show you the old world is rapidly fading (For the times, they are a'changin'~!)
-They likely wanted someone to die who would have impact on the players, going completely opposite of the wishes of the playerbase to achieve maximum shock.
-The heroside signature roster has more than 20, well known, signature heroes who regularly show up in the lore and writing, many have redundant roles, powers, ATs (like the FP being bloated with defenders). Redside is represented by only 9, ten counting Doctor Aeon, each one tends to uniquely represent an AT and an origin. Killing of States and Psyche may have been a way to mildly reduce the overswollen blueside hero signature NPCs.
-Spiting Jack Emmert may have also been A factor, but not the only factor.
So, these four factors, if all are assumed to be correct, basically make a hard case against States and Psyche's continued existences.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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If they were going for impact, and and wanting to kill of stagnant characters, I think killing off BABS, Ms Liberty, and Positron would of had more effect.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
So randomly: gathering up some interesting points some folks have made, I'm starting to think that it wasn't a question of "why Kill States and Psyche" but rather "why not?" if we are to assume just about ALL guesses are actually right.
-States and Psyche had become honestly stagnant characters, and while good writing could have saved them it wouldn't have also opened up a lot of development for EVERYONE ELSE if they died. -Statesman and Psyche were not just among the best of the old vanguard, but were literally some of the oldest known heroes alive. (Dream Doctor, Dark Watcher, and Lady Grey as well) killing them was sort of, since they could not die naturally, probably meant to be like watching your grandfather or mother pass away and show you the old world is rapidly fading (For the times, they are a'changin'~!) -They likely wanted someone to die who would have impact on the players, going completely opposite of the wishes of the playerbase to achieve maximum shock. -The heroside signature roster has more than 20, well known, signature heroes who regularly show up in the lore and writing, many have redundant roles, powers, ATs (like the FP being bloated with defenders). Redside is represented by only 9, ten counting Doctor Aeon, each one tends to uniquely represent an AT and an origin. Killing of States and Psyche may have been a way to mildly reduce the overswollen blueside hero signature NPCs. -Spiting Jack Emmert may have also been A factor, but not the only factor. So, these four factors, if all are assumed to be correct, basically make a hard case against States and Psyche's continued existences. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Killing of Psyche just to promote character development in Manticore, is the sign of a talentless writer.
Fridging just proves you lack imagination and intelligence.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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The only effect that would have had is a YYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If they were going for impact, and and wanting to kill of stagnant characters, I think killing off BABS, Ms Liberty, and Positron would of had more effect.
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Stop trying to get BaBs killed! You, [pronoun of your choice], are a monster.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If they were going for impact, and and wanting to kill of stagnant characters, I think killing off BABS, Ms Liberty, and Positron would of had more effect.
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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That's funny, but my heroines are not "The Guy" either. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I never felt the need to be "The Guy". That might make me some kind of unique snowflake but I kind of doubt that's the case.
My hero is not "The Guy" now, either. Once you leave the SSA, the world goes on like it always has. It's not as if anybody but me, the player behind the keyboard, is ever going to acknowledge my character's "guyness". |
I get what you mean tho, and I agree with your whole take on this subject.
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That movie was just all kinds of awesome.
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Originally Posted by GlassGoblin
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Well, I know this much -- the scant rewards in DA aren't going to do much of anything to slow this down. It seems obvious to me that making the rewards in DA so slim virtually requires one to continue farming the iTrials.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
His "parting words" were that they'd introduce a new currency for the next slots if BAF and Lambda continued to be farmed too much
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However, looking back on the rise of Penelope Yin, Psyche's end was a fait accompli. She's obviously been groomed to take her place, but just as obviously, she's more of a dominator than a controller, less support and more damage, and so she should be a little more exciting to watch than Psyche in that role.
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
I'd go with unfortunate implications. Psyche's death is pretty clearly (at least to me) meant to drive the Manticore storyline. Psyche's entire relevance lately is only to define him; she has no real purpose otherwise. I think there was a Sister Flame quote at the time of the wedding about stopping being superheroes and having babies or something like that. She was fairly close. As a character Psyche ceased to be an independant entity and became no more than another way to define Manticore. She was done as far as character development goes at that point. Possibly sexist, I suppose, but not spiteful towards Jack. And I don't think it was sexist so much as they didn't think it through. It looks bad that she was married and then done as an individual while here husband gets character development and storylines, but I think they weren't looking at it as a whole. They have two seperate stories, the marriage and Manticore's fall, and just never considered how they looked together.
That she was Jack's creation is just bad timing. They'd have killed off anyone who was married to Manticore no matter which developer was responsible for their creation. It's obvious he's being set up for a clear switch to vigilante and possibly even towards villain as the game defines the alignments. So no intended spite, it's just that Paragon Studios doesn't think about how their storylines intertwine after they move on to the next shiny thing. |
Can I just say... I don't care?
I know, then why am I posting. Fair enough. But the FP has been static. It hasn't grown - I don't mean "more members," I mean they're the Ted Kennedy of the COH hero world. They're freaking *always there.* You could have left back when I started in Issue 3 and come back - well, not just now, but six months ago, and they'd still be there, and still, quite honestly, be the exact same. (Except for seeing Positron as bald.)
Whether Matt Miller (who, really, is what a lot of this back and forth is about - I highly doubt the 40-odd people or whatever they've hired since becoming PS care about what Jack did) personally had a beef against Jack, or how badly he personally may or may not have wanted to kill off the character of Statesman, or all Jack's creations... I really don't care.
I do, quite frankly, agree it was time to shake that little "core major hero group" up. And having States go into space or something - you'd still have the "He's coming back any time now" possibility. If they wanted to finally make a permanent, "we're free of Cryptic (even if we still use their engine)" break, killing those characters off permanently would symbolically do it quite well.
As far as Psyche dying? We have, to a lesser degree, the same problem we have with Statesman. States is supposed to be the top-of-the-heap, generally the players are second fiddle to him - and we learn he's *restraining himself* from growing into more power like he could. Psyche? Well, other than finally getting someone with a little more that ribbon and mesh for an outfit (really, that thing was embarrassing,) she's again - "The World's Most Powerful" psychic.
We don't need that. The *players* should feel like they're able to at the very least get to the same level (without that "most powerful" title hanging over someone's head,) and with Incarnate stuff, exceed that level of power - and face the challenges that come with it, without The World's Most Powerful Anything hanging right on their shoulder ready to swoop in and save the day if the player screws up.
It removes that cap and says "Yes, YOU can be more powerful than the big names. You're not second string." And it leaves us with people that, while perfectly capable in their own right (depending on the writing...) - are *people.* A guy in a really techy suit of armor, a magic ghost, Penny Yin (who's still young and getting the hang of everything - in a way, also a standin for the players,) someone who's fast, but can be beaten, the "every normal guy, but with money and a bow," and an android.
Frankly, as far as not pushing the player characters down, it's a better Phalanx.
And last but not least, it's just long overdue change in an otherwise very static world. Way back when, Calvin Scott showed up, asked for help, then after a while vanished, the job finished. Since then we've had... what? Faultline revamped. (I don't honestly count the hollows - it's really the same, other than a few new groups.) Now DA. A little expansion into Croatoa. RWZ finally moved forward... and has stayed the same since. Villainside is worse.
Frankly, *more* change and *more* of a dynamic world, where yes, that contact is only going to exist for *this* issue, but will lead into other things two issues later, is needed, as far as I'm concerned.
(Don't mistake this, by the way, for accepting the "We don't want to just keep working on old, we want to give new, and have the new guys work only on their ideas instead of expanding the old" line(s) we've gotten. There's a lot to work with in the "old," and can only help the new folks get more in tune with the world - and help develop it instead of giving it the feeling it has, at times, of half-finished projects left abandoned behind someone.)
....
OK, for not caring, that's a lot of typing. >.<
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Count me as one of many who thought his *apology* was wrong and unprofessional. You may characterize what he said as "crazy nasty" but only because he was talking to you and people like you, who actively look for exploits and when found, use them constantly until they are fixed. His comments were not aimed at the average player, but those who exploit. That needed to be fixed and dealt with in a way that clearly showed it was not acceptable. The reason for his apology was the company's decision to knuckle under to the many self-centered players who thought this was the greatest thing since sliced bread and who were vocal in their displeasure at being called out for their abuse of the game system. Unfortunately, this was also the turning point for this game's "kid glove" treatment of farmers who now blatantly abuse the system with constant advertising of farms in Atlas (not so much now that DFB has officially sanctioned farming), which was one of the big reasons I quit the game a year ago, that my beloved City of Heroes had turned into City of Farms. He should have stood by what he said, but the Company simply wouldn't allow that.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
What is your deal for real are you "just" a troll? I never said a damm thing about "uncharacteristic". I said for the third time crazy nasty, crazy nasty enough to have to apologize because he was WRONG for making that type of post to the community as it was TOTALLY unprofessional.
So unprofessional he had to apologize for it. That is what happened there is no dispute to that by anyone not trying to be a GD troll yet again. Bugger off. |
EDIT: Yes, I am making assumptions in this post, some of which may be unfounded. Feel free to flame away.
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This is a bunch of crap. You have never played with me and have no idea wth you are talking about saying that I use exploits etc.. That is just made up BS on your part. Speak for yourself and don't try to put your behavior on me. That ish is stupid and very reflective of your own personal actions.|
Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Count me as one of many who thought his *apology* was wrong and unprofessional. You may characterize what he said as "crazy nasty" but only because he was talking to you and people like you, who actively look for exploits and when found, use them constantly until they are fixed.
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The crazy nasty part from Jack was the tone and unprofessional nature of the post. He may have and did have a point to make but how he made it is where he got in trouble. That is not in dispute since he was forced to make a public apology.
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Originally Posted by NekoNeko
His comments were not aimed at the average player, but those who exploit.
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Originally Posted by NekoNeko
That needed to be fixed and dealt with in a way that clearly showed it was not acceptable.
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Originally Posted by NekoNeko
The reason for his apology was the company's decision to knuckle under to the many self-centered players who thought this was the greatest thing since sliced bread and who were vocal in their displeasure at being called out for their abuse of the game system.
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Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Unfortunately, this was also the turning point for this game's "kid glove" treatment of farmers who now blatantly abuse the system with constant advertising of farms in Atlas (not so much now that DFB has officially sanctioned farming), which was one of the big reasons I quit the game a year ago, that my beloved City of Heroes had turned into City of Farms. He should have stood by what he said, but the Company simply wouldn't allow that.
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It has been a steady move towards the Double XP mods they are going to sell in the Paragon market, from patrol XP to flex mission settings and super side kicking.
All of the moves they have made point directly towards the preparation for a hybrid model that we have now and being in position to properly take advantage of new revenue streams.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Super sidekicking was added in 2009 - that's some pretty advanced forward planning
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I wonder when they decided to make Double XP mods.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
My opinion, for all it's worth: I assume they will do better next time.
SSA #1 had it's ups and downs, but ultimately I don't feel it was a 'failure'. It was not a revolutionary new mark on literature for the rest of eternity, but it was not a flat-out 'failure'.
"Not bad, but you could do better. There were quite a few really good points, but you had some really big flubs. Analyze these failures and use them as an example of what not to do and what to improve upon."
As for the whole SCANDAL, eh. Whatever. While I see the logic with Positron becoming the new leader of the Phalanx, I was desperately hoping for BABs or The Honoree to take over... but I can't have everything, sadly.
Need to fix that. Not having everything is troublesome.
All things said and done; judgment on quality of story will be reserved for the conclusion of SSA #2. Everyone gets one bumpy road in the start of something new.
For those saying they could have done better and have given written examples? Great! I hope you get hired! Otherwise... okay?
They've already said that after all is said and done, Statesman will still be on the login splash and advertisements. So they are not removing every trace of Statesman... Now if in issue 23, we see Positron has replaced Statesman on the login splash, then and only then can we claim foul.
As for Sister Psyche, another poster earlier mentioned the similarity of her death to that of a certain X-Men character. I have absolutely no doubt that Sister Psyche will return, in some form, some day.
Story arcs:
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But for the full effect, Manticore needs to marry someone who is the spitting image of Sister Psyche, and when he leaves her because of Psyche's return, the jilted ex has to become a Demon Summoning/Pain Domination (or Dark Miasma) Mastermind and seek revenge on him during the Paragon City-wide underworld invasion known as "Blazes".
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
As for Sister Psyche, another poster earlier mentioned the similarity of her death to that of a certain X-Men character. I have absolutely no doubt that Sister Psyche will return, in some form, some day.
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Sister Psyche is coming back as The Dark xxFeenixx
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And it all ends with Penelope Yin turning seven years old. | But for the full effect, Manticore needs to marry someone who is the spitting image of Sister Psyche, and when he leaves her because of Psyche's return, the jilted ex has to become a Demon Summoning/Pain Domination (or Dark Miasma) Mastermind and seek revenge on him during the Paragon City-wide underworld invasion known as "Blazes". |
"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."
This all sounds slightly ridiculous. It's as if Paragon Studios would never be allowed to kill off 'Jacks character' because it would be somehow 'spiteful'. Which is nonsense. Kill the most powerful figurehead hero, take the wife of the guy who has all the money and resources and stuff her in a fridge....instant storyline carnage. Brilliant. A lot of people went to that womans wedding. It sounds rather like people are missing the point by complaining about their entirely subjective out of universe musings, instead of CRUSHING FACE IN THE NAME OF.....WHOEVER SHE WAS. I TOTALLY WENT TO HER WEDDING. WE WERE FRIENDS. BRING ME EVILDOERS TO WREAK MY VENGEANCE UPON.
Spiteful? Who gives a damn. It works.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
I have to say that personally I dont feel like these choices were made out of spite. If the devs are trying to move the game forward then I think they have laid some good foundations
I have been thinking about how I would feel If each member had died and I realised I actually wasn't that bothered about any of them because asides running the TF's I have never really had much to do with them. There are some great story arcs in the game that make me feel invested in characters/contacts but non of these really involve the Phalanx. The SSA's seem to be a step in the right direction (they weren't perfect) but at least i'm interacting with the Phalanx.
Seeing as im not that fussed about any of them dying i'm more focused on how them dying will change the game. With this in mind im gonna run through why I feel the right choices were made (please don't rip me to pieces if you disagree, its just my opinion).
Statesman- His death changes everything, it's not really the consequences it will have blueside that im most interested in, I cant wait to see what happens with Lord Recluse and the patrons (bring back Weaver 1). Obviously the rest of the Phalanx now has to shift around to regroup as a new unit (I would love to see a Kheld make it into the team). Also there is potential for Ms Liberty and the Vindicators to get more involved.
Sister P- With her dead I am really looking forward to what will happen with Manticore. Penny is obviously stepping up as the new psychic on the team and im looking forward to this change. She is young so she will need training (beyond the mysterious figure that has been training her in secret) also at least I feel slightly invested in her as a character having run her arc in Faultline countless times and rescuing here in LGTF. Aurora might also get more to do which brings Calvin Scott back into to mix.
If Synapse/ Posi/ Numina/ Citadel/ BAB had died I dont think it would have (as) had much impact on the game. I mean Citadel is a robot, couldnt he just be rebuilt...? And Numina is already dead... I know these characters are loved by some players (who should be happy they survived) but they dont push the story forward by duying (although if you have ideas on how their deaths might have changed up the game world I really love to hear, seriously)
Im really looking to the next SSA to see how the world continues to change, more so when you factor in the events of the DA arcs. I think game is heading in a great drection and I can't wait to see what happens next. Good Job Devs!
(Now lets get a Kheld on the Phalanx plz)
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Nothing at all? We're talking video games, comics, and marketing, not appealing to judges and seated juries.|
Originally Posted by Kierthos
One of his favorite sayings was "Not only do you have to avoid impropriety, you have to avoid the appearance of impropriety." It's not enough to just follow the rules, you have to look like you're not trying to break the rules.
So, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? |
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Simply put, were the characters that died in the SSA killed out of spite? I don't know. You don't know. For all we know, the writer(s) don't know; they were merely given an outline and told "X, Y, and Z die. Write me a story around it." But to an outsider (i.e. non-employee), who only knows that Statesman, Sister Psyche and Malaise were characters created by Jack Emmert, does it have the appearance of targeting his creations? Well, yes. If it had been Statesman, Positron and ... oh, say, Wretch who had died, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That in itself says something. |
But...
Who's on the front page of cityofheroes.com? Jack's characters.
Who's at the header of our forum? Jack's character.
Who was on the original login before Freedom? Jack's characters.
Who was on the Freedom login? Jack's character.
Who's on the login now? Jack's character.
In the new tutorial comic, who are among the heroes you're introduced to? Jack's characters.
Only now, years after Jack left and made a couple new games and after his characters have been headlining the game since the very beginning, do we kill off his two admittedly biggest creations... and its out of spite? And I haven't even touched the comic book revolving door o' death.
Paragon's been treating Jack's creations with the same amount of care and respect that, well, Jack gave them when he was here. To go the route of 'impropriety', even more so the wacky route Venture's argument took? That just gives me a very amused smile.
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I'd like to see the text of this "crazy, nasty" rant. Any links?
To answer your question heck yes it would make me angry. Which is why the "professional" liaison they had back then ended up taking over the communication after making him say he was sorry. My thing is there is no way in heck that he should have ever been allowed to post that kind of attacking statement in the first place BIG BIG mistake.
Moving forward Paragon learned so much from that experience and in my twisted way of thinking it is why we have a liaison like Z now, who has been nothing but professional even when seriously provoked.
Face it, that dude needed a serious attitude adjustment.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.