genuine need or company spite? *spoilers*


Aggelakis

 

Posted

Ill step into this thread partly IC and partly OOC. Good luck figuring where the line between them is.

2 of my characters really took to the SSA. I made alot of *friends* here on the forums recently pushing the advantages and improved immerssion players can experiance if making Lore Based characters no matter if your in RP or not. While playing through the series as Bentley Berkeley one of the founding members of the Midnighter's, an Immortal, and powerful psychic/wizard dating back to the days of ancient Cimmorea, I had no shortages of moments where it felt like I was THE RIGHT MAN for the job at hand.

From the Circle's involvment, to The Midnighter's, encountering Lourdin whom I had watched with concern for years never trusting in the Mind Witch's so called rehab. Seeing my former student Wade take all he had learned of my war against the cult of the "Dark" to attempt to undue what my old friend the Doctor accomplished so long ago. This was an more then just another evil would be black mage to be dealt with. This was a real chapter in my story unfolding before me.

This IMO meant that the DEVs POSI included had got it RIGHT! They had created a story that if played by a character made to fit within the games campaign setting it would feel like a personal AE story arc. That by the end not only had I the satisfaction of saving the day but doing so in the role of one of the most unsung characters of COH lore. The fact that the new DA and its arcs only add to this whole is just icing on the cake.

If there was true malice for Statesman, I think it only accuratley reflects no few of the players like myself who long saw the Tyrant-State as an abomination and open threat to the safety of humanity. That a being like Sister psyche was nothing more then a mind ****** witch who had stolen years from other women to sustain her own life. She was easily one of the most morally questionable origins of any character in the lore.

To be honest I dont like many of the so called Icon Heroes. The new generation of names like the Dream Doctor dont smack of superiority but rather a peer and for some an old friend good to have back in the world. Characters like Blue Steel and Sister Psyche especially stank of hypocrisy since day one, and getting rid of as many of them as we can over the coming year is IMO a GREAT WAY to evolve the games world.

My oldest character T'Keron Valmaz will truly mourn the day Infernal may fall, but I hope at least that battle is one I can choose to join on one side or another and see his end come in glory.

Likewise Ghost Falcon can always count on Invisible Falcon and Crey Global enterprises to carry on should his day finally come.


 

Posted

I did feel abit miffed when Sister Psyche died. Ok they did give her a proper story, but.... they did forget one thing.
In the mission it is you, Manticore, Sister Psyche ... (wait for it)... Penelope Yen!
Whom is a very strong psychic. Perhaps she did something, perhaps she could have done something?

Well the character had to be somewhere else and fight off the assassin, and thus not there when Manticore shot Sister Psyche.
But what about Penelope Yen?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Arete View Post
I did feel abit miffed when Sister Psyche died. Ok they did give her a proper story, but.... they did forget one thing.
In the mission it is you, Manticore, Sister Psyche ... (wait for it)... Penelope Yen!
Whom is a very strong psychic. Perhaps she did something, perhaps she could have done something?

Well the character had to be somewhere else and fight off the assassin, and thus not there when Manticore shot Sister Psyche.
But what about Penelope Yen?
please dont give them any ideas. I love penny and would hate to see her killed off by having that mind ****** witch take her body over.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
It turned Positron's raging hatred away from the players and onto Jack's characters.
Not really sure that ole Pos really HATES any of the players. Except for maybe me, but I can take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
You know I've never got why Positron was even allowed in the city at all. Until recently he was a radiation emitting cloud of anti-matter locked in a containment suit right?

Why was he even allowed to stand around in the middle of a populated zone like Steel Canyon? What if some villain popped his contaiment suit and nuked a few dozen civillians?

And what exactly makes him fit to lead a super group? Guy wants to bone a ghost for pitys sake.
So does Scirocco, and he's a PATRON. One of the five most powerful people in Arachnos. (AND WE DO NOT DISCUSS NUMITRON.)

As for why they let him stand around Blyde Square... I think Synapse and Manticore had a bet on how far that humongous statue would FLY if Posi nuked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Well, he *did* start the (current version of the) Phalanx... second novel, I believe. Kind of gives him the big red star by default.
Hey, they had supersidekicking before we did! Posi formed the team, passed States the star, and now that SP and States are gone (and presumably Manticore), the star defaults back to him.

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Posted

Whops Demetrios Vasilikos... Oh I quite agree.
What I did wonder about was though, we have Sis Psyche and we have Penelope Yen. Both are strong telepaths, could she not have passified Sis Psyche?

Oh well, done is done. Penelope is now with the Phalanx (Maybe to Fusionette's dismay... or hey, she might even look at what Penelope is doing and act accordingly.) and the player is there to do what the player does best. (most often upsetting the status quo)


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
You know I've never got why Positron was even allowed in the city at all. Until recently he was a radiation emitting cloud of anti-matter locked in a containment suit right?

Why was he even allowed to stand around in the middle of a populated zone like Steel Canyon? What if some villain popped his contaiment suit and nuked a few dozen civillians?

And what exactly makes him fit to lead a super group? Guy wants to bone a ghost for pitys sake.
In fairness, the public safety question is a central facet of superhero comics for years now: Is it more important to manage the heroes as threats to public safety, or is it more important to tread the individuals as free persons with all the rights and privilages that would carry?

If a person, through no fault of his own, poses a small chance of being a considerable danger to many people, does that justify taking away his rights to be a public servant and operate for the greater good? (Hell, you could even use it to justify why he used to send heroes on task forces while doing nothing himself. ;p )

Regardless, a big part of it boils down to "It's a comic book game. Don't look at this too closely."


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I don't know. You say that, but comic book characters have been killed in comics because the writer didn't care for them for one reason or another.

And as fans of comics hate it then, I don't see why people wouldn't hate this choice of storyline.

And as mentioned, when all the deaths occur to characters created by one person, it just has you thinking that.
Comic books, for one thing, typically have a single writer, but even they often act under the directions of their editors and, by extension, the company.

But when the writer takes somebody out of a comic book because of their personal distaste for the character, (and I'd posit that -that- is often less out of petty reasons than the fan base typically assumes it is) it's a support or background character.

When Jean Grey or Superman gets killed off, you can bet your left pinky that Marvel/DC was involved in a very big, very committee driven, very public visibility kind of way, and it's typically done for a wealth of reasons, but mostly because the people making the decision feel it will make money and improve the product in the long run.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavensrun View Post
Comic books, for one thing, typically have a single writer, but even they often act under the directions of their editors and, by extension, the company.
No, that is actually very, very rare in American comics.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

I don't see why this is any kind of deal. Killing Statesman was good and it is time to move forward past his death.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
No, that is actually very, very rare in American comics.
And if they were really under such tight control, there wouldn't be so many retcons and reboots.


'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
I don't see why this is any kind of deal. Killing Statesman was good and it is time to move forward past his death.
It wasn't really 'good' in any way.

The execution sucked and he went out like a quiter.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
It wasn't really 'good' in any way.

The execution sucked and he went out like a quiter.
Sure it was good for the game is what I meant as I explained several reasons why it was good for the game on the last page.

As far as the actual execution and him going down like a quitter etc... sure that "part" could have used a good ole punch up, but his death has been a good thing for the game overall.

I am glad he is dead.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
Sure it was good for the game is what I meant as I explained several reasons why it was good for the game on the last page.

And I disagree with them.

Yes the idea of the SSA's could bring a lot of people to the game, but they haven't really have they?

Besides the writing and quality assurance on the last batch have been enough tocrush any good they could of done.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
And I disagree with them.

Yes the idea of the SSA's could bring a lot of people to the game, but they haven't really have they?

Besides the writing and quality assurance on the last batch have been enough tocrush any good they could of done.
My central point was good for the game not that it would necessarily draw tens of thousands of new people, maybe just a small bump.

IDK if SSA's have brought more people to the game or as I stated converted more f2p to vip, it was the speculative hope of same. Only the devs know and they are not going to say.

"It was good for the game because it opened the door to a nice new revenue stream in the SSA's. That is good for the game"....Check it did do this, to what degree we will never be told.

"It also opens up a new content tool that can be used to make new stories and expand the lore well beyond its roots into the future. That is good for the game".....Check it did do this.

"It got some excellent free press for making the SSA's and that draws new players that would not have considered COX prior to the comic book episode deal. That is good for the game"....I am going to say check it did do this. The press is undeniable the draws new players part we will never be told.

"I personally think some of the missions and cutscenes were some of the better ones in the game.That is good for the game." Acknowledged as debatable.

"Killing Statesman was a bold and risky decision yes, but it brought a lot more attention to the game than just about any other plot they could have thought up." Check, what other plot would have drawn more attention from the press and how is that not good for the game?


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
"It was good for the game because it opened the door to a nice new revenue stream in the SSA's. That is good for the game"....Check it did do this, to what degree we will never be told.
Did this for a couple of episodes, then promptly slammed the door shut when the quality took a nose dive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
"It also opens up a new content tool that can be used to make new stories and expand the lore well beyond its roots into the future. That is good for the game".....Check it did do this.
Would of worked with the SSA having any plot other than Kill Statesman, for example how about an SSA dealing with plot line of how you killed the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
"It got some excellent free press for making the SSA's and that draws new players that would not have considered COX prior to the comic book episode deal. That is good for the game"....I am going to say check it did do this. The press is undeniable the draws new players part we will never be told.

Debatable, any new addition would draw some press. Killing off a character, but then still using said character as the main advertisement of the game? Not certain how that really works out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
"I personally think some of the missions and cutscenes were some of the better ones in the game.That is good for the game." Acknowledged as debatable.
Agreed the new maps and cutscenes were cool, but would of been just as cool for any subject matter of SSA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
"Killing Statesman was a bold and risky decision yes, but it brought a lot more attention to the game than just about any other plot they could have thought up." Check, what other plot would have drawn more attention from the press and how is that not good for the game?
Basically any plot that is marketed right, how about an SSA where the player takes over the Earth (either for just reasons or villanous ones)? The first MMO ever to let players rule the world, that seems pretty news worthy.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Hopefully, this SSA is a learning experience for Paragon Studios, both in how to write this kind of material and in how to publicize it.

My personal feeling about the death of Statesman is that it was unnecessary and it was done for reasons that had much less to do with the game and its back story than it had to do with the feelings of the real-life people who run the game. The problems here with offing Statesman because he represents the old regime run deeper than just getting rid of Jack Emmert. They go to the heart of the neglect that the game has been suffering the last few years in the lore department.

It is my belief at this point that the people in charge could really have their way, they'd just ditch this world entirely and remake it according to their own desires. This goes all the way back to Arctic Sun leaving and the Paragon Times vanishing and half of the lore just vaporizing. This goes to the heart of Matt's decision that he'd be a poor leader if he required current-day employees to stay beholden to eight-year-old lore instead of telling the stories that they want to tell. The "problem", if you see it as such, is not that Matt saw Statesman as a reminder of bad times (which he probably does) but that he saw Statesman and the Phalanx and all of it as old crap (my words, not his) that needs to be swept out to make way for newer crap. Matt doesn't respect the old game; he wants to demolish it and replace it with a new game and that attitude filters down to the rest of the company.

That's how I see the current situation at Paragon Studios, correctly or incorrectly as it may be.

The story itself was alright, but only because they unexpectedly managed to pull a somewhat satisfying final chapter out of their hat. It's a bit telling, however, that the thing that people comment most on is the visuals of chapter seven, not the writing. If you ran the same story without those visuals, I suspect the response to chapter seven would be rather more critical.

My bottom line is based on the $35 price tag of the story. This is a sub-par product, especially if you primarily play as a hero. They put so much effort into making a satisfying and relevant villain story that they made an eminently dissatisfying hero story. My hero is directly involved in the death of THREE signature heroes, and indirectly with a fourth who is arguably having a psychotic break. Why Manticore is loose on the streets instead of in jail or in a mental ward is beyond me. I guess that Justin Sinclair has the best lawyers that money can buy.

In any case, when I compare this story to Going Rogue or Architect, or even any of the booster packs, that $35 price tag just makes me scratch my head in disbelief. I might buy chapter one for the weekly hero merit and I might buy chapter seven just for the cool visuals, but I will never buy the rest unless it's offered as a $10 package for the whole story.

I hope that SSA-2 is a better product.


 

Posted

I would of prefered if the SSA dealt with the entire Phlanax getting their powers removed. Thus enabling them to remain in game, in the same advisory posistion they hold as task force givers.

But who you ask would save us from Arachnos etc?

How about us the player characters? The old guard are still there to teach and advise, but it up to us to hold the torch of justice!


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
how about an SSA where the player takes over the Earth (either for just reasons or villanous ones)? The first MMO ever to let players rule the world, that seems pretty news worthy.
Precedent.


'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
Hopefully, this SSA is a learning experience for Paragon Studios, both in how to write this kind of material and in how to publicize it.
As someone who's played through the new Atlas Park content and then moved on to the junky older stuff in King's Row in the past week, I will confidently assert that they will indeed learn many design and implimentation lessons from this pioneering effort.

The marketing stuff....well, I wouldn't hold my breath on it. =P

Quote:
My personal feeling about the death of Statesman is that it was unnecessary and it was done for reasons that had much less to do with the game and its back story than it had to do with the feelings of the real-life people who run the game. The problems here with offing Statesman because he represents the old regime run deeper than just getting rid of Jack Emmert.
And I'm sure that DC "killed" Superman from a sense of personal animosity toward Joe Siegel & Jerry Schuster, right?

C'mon. These people are professionals.

In comics, the archetypal homeland of this game, it isn't unusual for a new creative team to 'clean house' so to speak, ditching or downgrading characters they aren't interested in to focus on those they are. The impulse is natural- creativity flows best when you're working with characters you're interested in and care about.

There are manifold good reasons to kill off 'major' characters, as other posters have noted. It is a dramatic event in its own right that naturally opens up other dramatic events. Continuing storylines benefit from periodic shakeups.

Quote:
This goes to the heart of Matt's decision that he'd be a poor leader if he required current-day employees to stay beholden to eight-year-old lore instead of telling the stories that they want to tell.
I'm no Positron fanboy, but he's absolutely right about this.
A story that stagnates is a story that dies. If you have new creative people working on a project and you want to force them to hew slavishly to the precepts of a previous regime, you're wasting their talents.

Quote:
The "problem", if you see it as such, is not that Matt saw Statesman as a reminder of bad times (which he probably does) but that he saw Statesman and the Phalanx and all of it as old crap (my words, not his) that needs to be swept out to make way for newer crap. Matt doesn't respect the old game; he wants to demolish it and replace it with a new game and that attitude filters down to the rest of the company.
Again, that's great.

Stories need to evolve and they don't evolve by slavish devotion to "lore".
And we're not dealing with Shakespeare or Homer here- the 'bible' of this game (such as it is) is a knock off of a knock off of another knock off.

Fresh ideas and new points of view can only improve the game.

Quote:
In any case, when I compare this story to Going Rogue or Architect, or even any of the booster packs, that $35 price tag just makes me scratch my head in disbelief. I might buy chapter one for the weekly hero merit and I might buy chapter seven just for the cool visuals, but I will never buy the rest unless it's offered as a $10 package for the whole story.
Not having played it I can't speak to the quality of the product, but the realm of digital entertainment generally works like this:

The FRESH NEW THING comes out, and it costs whatever- let's say $35. So the super enthusiasts willing to pay a premium to get the FRESH NEW THING hot off the presses pick it up.

After a bit the Fresh New Thing isn't so fresh and all the enthusiasts have bought it, so LO! the price comes down, to let's say $20. Now some of the people who were interested but thought $35 was highway robbery will check it out.

And so on and so on, until eventually it will be available either free or for a pittance, because it will have been superseded by other generations of FRESH NEW THINGs.

They'll improve the content, and the older content will get cheaper, of this I'm certain.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos View Post
Ill step into this thread partly IC and partly OOC. Good luck figuring where the line between them is.
I'm not sure how you got an entire thread on your motorcycle, but you cleared that shark by a mile.


My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.

 

Posted

Everyone knows I am a casual lore guy at best so I can understand if those tied to the lore are upset with Statesman getting whacked.

Nethergoat mentioned the fresh new ideas deal and that is where I found myself so I might just have a preference for things moving forward vs revisiting old lore or expanding on it. I thought that they did a decent job with the SSA's, but the ultimate determination on that is how many more they sell moving forward.

IDK, I may just be overjoyed with the balls they showed in not being afraid to whack the old dude and make room for what may come. As hard as I am on these guys I am only after giving them a full chance, especially for stuff like this.

Whacking Statesman ROCKED and opened to door for what is to come. For a casual lore person at best, they actually got me to care about what is to come. I consider that a feat worthy of note since I have played these games from the start and it is increasingly difficult to get me to care about any games storyline/lore more than casually as I have basically seen it all and don't care ordinarily.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
How about us the player characters? The old guard are still there to teach and advise, but it up to us to hold the torch of justice!
That's the thing though, States hasn't done anything, nor has the FP, they don't save the world. They have saved the world but all they do in the present is walk into obvious traps and break stuff that the players are responsible for fixing.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
With news that Positron is being promoted to the lead of the Freedom Phalanx I can't help but feel that there is a somewhat spiteful mean to kill of Jack's characters to remove 'his last remaining ingame influence'.
Yet every time I log in his crotch is right in my face... BAM!


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogi View Post
That's the thing though, States hasn't done anything, nor has the FP, they don't save the world. They have saved the world but all they do in the present is walk into obvious traps and break stuff that the players are responsible for fixing.
that's due to bad writing/lousy writing, and possibly players requests that "Wait! I want to be better than this and this signature NPC"

When without those signature NPCs this game would be boring. You still want those big names to go up against and slapping AV status on any random enemy isn't the same as one with even a bit of thought out background.

What the writing staff could start doing is writing it out and making them work! Showing them succeed.

Many ways to do this as well.

1) Heroes working along side (not for) the signature heroes and accomplishing a goal. The same with the villains.

2) Creating succeed or fail missions. Missions that when defeated keep you down baring certain powers...rez powers/awakens...and if one clicks Hospital, they can't reneter the mission.

3) Like #2 but improving the jail cells! If you get stuck in a jail cell you can't escape! However you can be broken out! And if the whole team is captured, kicked from mission and mission failure!

Personally, I think these would be awesome additions to CoH, but of course, I'm sure many would disagree.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
"It was good for the game because it opened the door to a nice new revenue stream in the SSA's. That is good for the game"....Check it did do this, to what degree we will never be told.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Did this for a couple of episodes, then promptly slammed the door shut when the quality took a nose dive.
And that tells me your posts are not worth reading. So, the revenue stream was good then died off? And how do you know this? Oh, you actually don't. You're just making &*#( up. Yeah, par for the course on the internet.


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