Healers redundant? Incarnate heals!

Hello peeps.

Right from the very start, ive had an emp/rad defender that ive really enjoyed playing. He's even soloed most of his levels (that was a slog!). In team, I find that im invaluable, with my buffs, heals and rezzes, as well as a few extra helps from the rad debuffs, TP's and even emergency mob control through the mind mastery pool.

But since the introduction of the incarnate powers, im finding that my skills are of less use than they used to be. Ageless restores peoples end, Incandesence TP's people about, Rebirth heals all injuries, Clarion keeps teammates mind clear and theres even one that revives defeated allies. Multiple ones!

In some itrials, I find myself dispencing individual buffs (fortitude and AB) and attacking. Defenders attacks are fairly weak (compared to actual 'damage dealers'), so I bearly feel like im contributing.

Oh yeah sure, im good for keeping the tank or portal alive or saving that stupid guy who though he was a tank, but apart from that i dont feel as useful as I was.

Anyone else get this feeling?

for me personally i dont really care for the trials much, it doesnt matter really what sets you are all that really matters is DPS and debuff, with 16-24 players buffs almost dont matter cause everyone is stacked near the cap unless your running on team full of melee who would have only incarnate powers for buffs

i think if you want to feel more useful then stop doing trials and join teams running dark astoria content, the baddies in there can be pretty tough at times and you still can make progress on incarnate stuff

if you like the raiding stuff, then not much i can really say except as a emp you should run the keyes trial more since that one poeple usually need the heals (at least its not as bad as it used to be)

I have never played an emp, but from my experience with other buff/debuffers I can say I whole heartily love this. I never really liked being a buff/debuff bot and even though defender damage is lower, the secondary effects more than make up for it IMO, even more so if they can stack. For example with your emp/rad, while the damage output isn't equal to a rad/* Corruptor, the greater -Def is nice and I believe the duration on powers like Cosmic Burst and Atomic Blast are longer.

One of my pet peeves about Kinetics was that I spent more time buffing than blasting so I love that I can spend more time blasting because IMO it doesn't matter how much you heal, buff or debuff; damage is king in this game and if you don't kill your target what's the point?

I will echo the sentiment that the importance of the "healer" role has been in decline for a long time, well before there were incarnate powers. I admit that I do miss the days when task forces took all night and the was a real and serious need for support skills, instead of just all DPS all the time. However, I also remember the bad old days of "Defender = Healer" culture, when my Dark/Dark Defender would get multiple tells demanding to know if he was an Empath and then telling him he wasn't needed on the team because he wasn't a "healer". So, healers are getting less important all the time, but that's not 100% bad.

I think IO's play a big part too as more and more people are soft capping. I miss the days of "edge of your seat healing" on big teams and actually feeling like you were doing some good.

Healers are redundant, Defenders are not :P

Partly it's the independence created by IO's, 'everyone' getting soft-capped and recovery problems going bye bye.

Partly it's the Incarnate powers closing holes in performance be it Judgement nukes, Clarion, Rebirth or whatever.

And partly it's the single target nature of several of Empathy's buffs, specifically Fortitude and AB. Emps are very good at making 1 person very tough, a small team hard, but as the number of teammates and league mates increases that power gets diluted especially given none of an Empath's buffs got the AoE effect treatment. A very good high recharge build can work hard and keep 7 Forts up .... that can be either 7 of 7 teammates or 7 of 23 league mates. The net effect can get seriously diluted.

So I blast myself silly, if I can't buff my too numerous team/league mates I can darn well blast/debuff the living heck out of the teams/leagues current foe(s) ...

Rianna, Reyna, Tryth, Dark Lightning all level 50 Empathy defenders of varying sorts.

Not an empath, but after I took rebirth on my stalker, it is only so-so with heals. It's like, I heal the team, and then the team gets right back in danger again 15 seconds later.

It is definitely no substitute for a defender. I'm always glad to have support on the team.

Just wanted to say this has nothing to do with iTrials and has been affecting Empaths more then any other Defender for some time.

You really have to understand that when the game first came out Empath was a MUST HAVE on a team. Everything else was secondary. As a matter of fact if you where the Empath you pretty much had your choice of starting a team and everyone asking you to join your team. That is how much power they commanded back then. Empath=Automatic invite. After the Empath was a Stone Tank. Stone Tank was the only powers set that was able to cap out or close to cap on defenses. So eating a few purple inspirations kept you going. Back then the main thing a tank did was taunt. That was it, taunt. After that then a Kinetic or a Force Field player. Then after that was some sort of Blaster and a Scrapper. Then mix the rest up.

What happen next over time, between complaints and overall equalization of powers (back then not all AOEs were the same, some effected 10 targets some 15 targets). was that other heals where bumped up to make them more reliable. Debuffs where also fixed or modified.

What came next was invention sets.

Invention Sets truly crushed Empathy and at the same time opened the doors to many being able to tank. What happen now is that dark or kinetic heal became reliable. The debuffs now from these became more noticeable. The empath just had heals. Dark was healing more then an Empath AOE heal and almost as much as his single target heal and recharged fast. Back in the days of Single Origin enhancers a dark player had only a few choices. Add more recharge but lessen the heal or more accuracy but less recharge, where as a empath already had the heal he just needed to add recharge and more heals. So the empath always won out in that race.

But inventions "Fixed" that. On top you really needed to understand how to create a build. Not all players really understand that, so even in the same sets you had one Dark healer that was better then another because he understood invention sets much better then the other guy.

Invention sets now allowed that stone tank to take a heal from aid self. Invention sets now allowed many to pick up aid self as a heal. You mix in 2 players with Aid self in a group, it might not be empath grade heals but without a doubt it works on topping off players when needed and it can save players at times. But now mix in Aid other with O2 lets say from storm. Now you have a decent heal combination. Again not empath grade but it is workable. Remember everyone else is benefiting from Invention sets as well. So more players are capped, which means less people getting hit and taking damage. More debuffs, which pretty much means the same and the debuffs are more powerful now.

That is when I noticed that my lvl 38 empath started taking a back seat, 6 years and counting.

The incarnate heal was just the last nail on the coffin for empaths because of what Invention sets already laid out on the table for everyone.

Yes certain incarnate powers hurt others as well, E.G. Blasters. But on my AR Device Range Defense Hover blaster that incarnate heal I have makes the toon really, really solid. I use it in a pinch and last long enough and recharges fast enough that I can solo 4/8 with it. Of course I can just get a tray of Greens but this allows me to mix up the tray now.

I wanted to stop by with a viewpoint that is probably not stressed enough...

While Incarnate powers are a nifty thing and very powerful, you must remember that they are not an equal substitute for the consistency that a well-played character (of any AT) can bring.

Yes, Destiny powers like Ageless and Rebirth are great, but they still lack the constant strength that Regeneration and Recovery Auras provide. Despite what others may try to tell you, Defenders are still the kings when it comes to supplying strong, consistent buffs, debuffs and heals.


Interface is a great ability to allow all attacks to trigger debuffs. But, they are still inferior to a classic Rad, Cold, etc who can bring the kind of debuffs that can turn a nasty Archvillain into a harmless kitten.

So, any Defender, Mastermind, Corruptor, or Controller wielding any of the classic great "support" powers is still quite effective. And, I dare say, those powers can actually make incarnate powers the redundant ones.

Now, as far as Empathy defenders, incarnate trials are places where there are more people but the need for a variety of powers is still there. Empathy should be looked at as the best (IMHO) set for focusing on whoever the Tanks are for the group during the AV fights. You won't need to be too concerned with trying to support everyone like you would on a normal team. So, focus your powers on the few people who are going to need the most direct support during the trial.
When not in a big fight, you simply have to develop a rythym of healing, buffing, and attacking just like everyone else. If you can go unlock your patron powers from the villain side, take that pet they give you and try to have it out as much as you can. On my Empath, I make use of that pet (which can be easily near permanent now) as a means of allowing me to more easily multi-task. The pet (or pets) allow me to contribute damage even during points when I am having to focus more on support.

Anyways, I hope that helps you figure out how to adapt.

I understand the feeling. I get that with my empath as well...I even get it on my bubblers. It doesn't bother me much because my main defender focuses on laying down -resistance, so she has always been more offensive/powerful than my other defenders. I noticed the feeling, but try not to let it get me down. I take the real pleasure in doing things by myself like holding down doors single handed. *looks at incarnate pets*

One thing about us defenders...we are known for being versatile. Each archetype is different from the other. We all don't function the same way. I say we focus on adapting to the situation like we always do.

Aye, iTrials hit bubblers a lot harder than they hit empaths. And some pure debuff sets were also hit nasty with +4 resistance to debuff levels.

Empathy still has RA's for leagues, and while Fort and AB lose a bit of their shine, they're still awesome powers if used wisely.

As for incarnate slots themselves, Destiny hit all buffers pretty hard. However, damage dealers were hit just as hard by Lore, Interface, and Judgement.