Concerned about Scrappers.

JB and Arcana going at it somehow puts me in mind of The Odd Couple...the excellent film, not the mediocre teevee show.

I'll let you guess which role is assumed by Jack Lemmon in my little fantasia...

I am not saying I agree with everything Johnny says, but I do think the argument of, "why not just roll a Brute instead of trying to improve Tankers," is fallacious. I personally would welcome an increase to the damage cap, even if it's only 50%, but there are a myriad of other solutions unrelated to the Tanker's offenses that I could see being applied as well, such as further cementing the Tanker's place as the aggro and survival king, as well as a team leader (buffs, debuffs, increase in Leadership values?). On this issue I am probably on the opposite side of Johnny, but I share his enthusiasm for improving Tankers as a whole and I agree with the general principle that they are in need of attention.

As a most basic level, I agree that Tankers need something to make their game play a little more different than the other melee ATs. Each of the other 3 melee ATs play feels very different from each other.

While Tankers are also different, only in that they take longer to be defeated. In most situations, I don't find a huge difference in agro control between Tankers and Brutes, though in the few sets that I've played between the two, I have noticed a survivability difference.

That's about it. I don't agree that by increasing the damage cap will resolve this particular issue for Tankers. Nor would it adequately address game play for many situations.

Chugging reds should not be considered part of game balance design for an AT.

I think that increasing damage for Tankers is quite simply barking up the wrong tree.

To use an earlier analagy, with regards to sprinters in a race, and how Tankers are always lagging behind, perhaps then they shouldn't be sprinting which is what I said earlier in responce. There are other events that they're probably better suiting for, but perhaps their toolset should be refined a bit to make sure they shine in that area.

As much as I truly loved the last page (especially my overlooked post, sigh) wasn't this thread really about someone's grave concern that Scrappers might lose their place as the bestest most wonderful melee AT because Stalkers aren't completely wrecked in PvE anymore? Don't we need to address that poor OPs heartfelt fear?

Edit: PS after reading this yesterday I revived a year old tanker and started building/cramming I/Os onto it. I'm off to a comicon this weekend, but I will have him finished (50'd, I/Od, and partially Incarnated) next week, and will post a build soon. I am going to challenge anyone to make a Brute that has the same survival as this tank. If you can then indeed, Brutes "Potential Survivability" is the same as a Tanks. But of course it is impossible. That statement and that argument is smoke and mirrors. A Tank's job and a Brutes Job are different. A Tank is a melee AT Controller with one Mez trick (Taunt) and the powers to use that trick very well. A Brute is a Melee damage dealer who can fill the role of a Tank when built right, but will never do it quite as well as a tank.

The problem, Johnny Butane, is that what you are describing is not balanced. Although I agree with you 100% about comic book tanks. It took me many years to wrap my head around CoX Tankers. But they are balanced, as primarily Melee AT Controllers.

Take a look at one of the original PS2 X-Men games. Had 1-50 levels in it. You had to unlock Colossus at about 25th level by doing a nuclear plant mission. Why? Because he was completely over the top powerful for the game. Same with Tony Stark in a later title from the same series. Because a Tanker like Iron Man that was also a Blaster and a hard hitting melee character just walks on game balance.

If, as you say, Brutes have the same "potential survivability" as a Tanker your solution is simple. Make a Brute, whose damage (depending on build/sets) jostles with Scrapper for top Melee AT damage dealer.

No, that's your definition of what "Tankers" should be. And please, stop bringing "the comics" into this discussion. Yes, they're the basis for the game, but how a game works and how the writing of comics work are completely different.

After all, if we're to follow comics than squirrel girl arguably a beast mm is the most powerful AT there is, capable of defeating anyone and anything she encounters.

I've seen players post very logical arguments showing how Spider Man could fit the role of a Tanker as much as a Scraper. Is the Hulk a Tanker or a Brute? Before Brutes, he was a Tanker now its a subject of debate. As fun (to some) as those discussions can be, ultimately they're pointless as this is a game and it is far, far different from a comic.

Using comic book writing as a reason for game balance is just plain silly.

And no I don't want to see Tankers become healers / buffers. And while yes, they are or were closer to the melee version of controllers I don't know if additional melee control is necessarily the way to go either.

If you look at how the Tanker powersets were designed, and how the first scrapper sets were, more Tanker sets had a mez or knock effect than compared to Scrappers over all. That added, with their high defensive capabilities, mad ethem very safe, and add much to the safety of their teams with those tools.

It's quite plain that you don't like how CoH Tankers are designed, but love the idea behind the comic book "Tanker" concept so much (and probably have a much loved character that you want to be buffed), that you won't be happy until you're particular vision is fulfilled.

In the past you've flat out trolled the devs and put them down, now you've changed tactics and post thinly veiled insults about their design methods. Just as Arcana called you out about your change in posted methods about this very topic, which I've said as well, in different words of course.

JB I love your passion and dediction I really do, but honestly I believe it to be poorly and sadly misdirected.

Well, if you want to consider all those weapons Deadpool uses to be rather like temp powers,
you can get at least rifles and grenades.
You still need pistols, a katana, dual weilded swords, and explosives.

Creating a purely ranged APP may be a nice / fun idea, using pistols with the first attack being a mez of some sort, with little damage
a single target ranged attack
a cone attack with low damage with knock back
a cone attack with high damage

I like it!