Concerned about Scrappers.
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-03-21 05:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I humbly stand corrected regarding the idea being applied for Tankers. I totally forgot about that post. However, the idea, was actually brought up by a player and posted on the boards prior to that post being made. Even so, the game changed entirely when CoV began to be designed. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This is flat out wrong. I'll produce the very quote in question. I have a keyboard macro set up for it.
He didn't say "Here's the solution we may try" or "the solution we could try. Even if it didn't make it past play testing, in order to test it at all they would have had to write the code for that. So yes, the mechanic the was later named Fury was thought of, designed and coded for Tankers. |
Which changes the entire way to look at the melee ATs from just comparing Tankers to Scrappers. Looks as if the dev at the time was posting their early, "white board" ideas without deep discussion and internal testing for balance which can be a dangerous thing to do. It sets up expectations that may not be fulfilled, as with Tankers now.
Trying to pull a quote from years ago in an attempt to state the validity of an argument now is pointless. The game has changed greatly, and there's for more to take into consideration.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If I'm correctly remembering the evolution of the Trapdoor encounter post live, first they made it so he couldn't be pulled from his room and out of range of his duplicates regen buffing. Then in a further patch, he was made immune to the lava. For a long time he was like that, and a lot of people seemed to be having problems and eventually he was updated yet again and they down scaled his duplicates and his regen a bit to where he is currently.
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I have to disagree with this, my Dual Blades brute beat him soundly without moving from the center area (except for the bi clearings). Never dumped him into the lava. And so did my Dominator come to think of it, before he had perma-Dom.
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
When I got to him, it was before the lava immunity change, which is why I used that tactic. As it was the only way my melees could defeat him.
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That's great for you. Disagree all you want, but I could not defeat him with neither my main Scrapper or my main Tank without using lava. At the time, neither was majorly IO'd out either, though my Scrapper was moreso than my Tanker, at that was with defense bonuses for the most part.
Both of those characters weren't in real danger of defeat, but the fight was a stand still.
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They're not, and they never have been.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Maybe it's just a perception thing, but I feel that scrappers are getting a bit of a shaft here.
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I don't see a promise of it being released. I see a statement that it would be doing internal testing.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
He didn't say "Here's the solution we may try" or "the solution we could try. Even if it didn't make it past play testing, in order to test it at all they would have had to write the code for that. So yes, the mechanic the was later named Fury was thought of, designed and coded for Tankers.
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Exit mission. Reset mission (to prevent uber bi spawning in meantime). Go to Mender Roebuck (He's, like, FIFTEEN FEET AWAY). Buy reds. Buy More Reds. Place in Email if you have a REALLY bad secondary. Engage fight with Trapdoor - consume reds (If you Do NOT have the +5% insp bonus, that's 16 to cap or 12 if you want build up to matter - I like to go 10 so I can pop a second round of insps).|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
That's great for you. Disagree all you want, but I could not defeat him with neither my main Scrapper or my main Tank without using lava. At the time, neither was majorly IO'd out either, though my Scrapper was moreso than my Tanker, at that was with defense bonuses for the most part.
Both of those characters weren't in real danger of defeat, but the fight was a stand still. |
Engage Trapdoor (Addendum - if you lack KB protection bring a couple Break Frees instead of a complete tray of Reds). After 2 seconds, he has 1 bifurcation - after 15 seconds he's down.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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One thing I have to say about the Trapdoor encounter. It marked an unwelcome (by me at least) change in the way it seems encounters were designed.
Players using the lava to their advantage? Pulling him from the duplicates? That's smart. That's using the environment and all the tools available to you to overcome a threat you otherwise couldn't. That is Superhero 101; Spider-Man webbing up his fists to punch Electro.
But to the devs? "Oh noes! They're taking it off the rails! Can't have that!"
Which of course has lead to the trials being a routine jumping through the right hoops on cue and doing exactly what the designer wants you to, even if it's nonsensical and asinine.
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Yeah I never did like that. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
One thing I have to say about the Trapdoor encounter. It marked an unwelcome (by me at least) change in the way it seems encounters were designed.
Players using the lava to their advantage? Pulling him from the duplicates? That's smart. That's using the environment and all the tools available to you to overcome a threat you otherwise couldn't. That is Superhero 101; Spider-Man webbing up his fists to punch Electro. But to the devs? "Oh noes! They're taking it off the rails! Can't have that!" Which of course has lead to the trials being a routine jumping through the right hoops on cue and doing exactly what the designer wants you to, even if it's nonsensical and asinine. . |
I could picture my Invul/SS Tanker Wrestle spearing Trapdoor off of the platform and into the lava, surfacing with, "yeah I can bathe in this stuff...can you?" while fighting him.
The weird sideaffect of that is now that Lava does not cause damage anywhere in the game, they didn't just remove it from the Trapdoor encounter they removed the damage component entirely for fear of the playerbase basically doing the same in any future encounters with it.
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So that's all Lava? I thought it was just the lava in Reichsman mission of Dark Astoria.|
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
The weird sideaffect of that is now that Lava does not cause damage anywhere in the game, they didn't just remove it from the Trapdoor encounter they removed the damage component entirely for fear of the playerbase basically doing the same in any future encounters with it.
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...actually, thinking about it, it wasn't "For fear of" it was because the player base had been doing the same in lots of encounters that had lava.
I remember taking on the Tyrant AV as a two person team, not having the damage capacity to beat him, so just bringing him into the lava where my Invulnerability tank was taking 25 damage a tick from the lava and he was taking 250.
On Who Will Die? Arc 1, people routinely got the Elite bosses into the lava. With Crane Kick, I'd manage to just accidentally knock the bosses into the lava.
And Trapdoor? Well, he just seemed to start running straight into the lava as soon as you aggro'd him. The guy has a death wish. You did not need to trick him into it.
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A shame, really. Like Johnny said, that's a clever trick. I was happy to say that my katana scrapper was able to unlock his alpha through that trick.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
So that's all Lava? I thought it was just the lava in Reichsman mission of Dark Astoria.
...actually, thinking about it, it wasn't "For fear of" it was because the player base had been doing the same in lots of encounters that had lava. I remember taking on the Tyrant AV as a two person team, not having the damage capacity to beat him, so just bringing him into the lava where my Invulnerability tank was taking 25 damage a tick from the lava and he was taking 250. On Who Will Die? Arc 1, people routinely got the Elite bosses into the lava. With Crane Kick, I'd manage to just accidentally knock the bosses into the lava. And Trapdoor? Well, he just seemed to start running straight into the lava as soon as you aggro'd him. The guy has a death wish. You did not need to trick him into it. |
Though if the devs are really that worried, maybe they should have just made the damage lava deals a s special damage type that most AVs can ignore.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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"What's this? Lava? Don't mind if I do!" *screams follow*
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I read the books that came with the game back in i3? Tankers, high survival, low damage. You can solo, but you'll be slow.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Wrong. It was a mechanic the the lead designer of the game said Tankers were going to get.
How do you know what the intention of Tankers is, and that it doesn't include damage? The official AT description suggests damage is an important part of the equation. It calls Tankers "devastating hand to hand combatants" who "dish out all sorts of damage". The same lead designer from above said of the mechanic that became Fury "This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose." Two official sources that are pretty clear the intent of Tankers was to reflect comic book Tankers and to, in part, have formidable offensive capabilities. If the lead designer of the game who was there when they created Tankers said it, what more proof do you need? . |
that was the intent, was it not?
Note, I'm not against a raise to the damage cap, though I'm not sure I agree it needs to be to such an extent to rival brutes.
But I havent seen the question answered, what are the tankers you have that reach the damage cap all on their own?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
But I havent seen the question answered, what are the tankers you have that reach the damage cap all on their own?
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Kinetic Melee
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Not to mention on teams/leagues (yeah I know BrandX said on their own) one Kin and a couple Leadership toggles is going to put most Tankers past the cap if they use Build Up or Rage. Shield takes even less.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Super Strength
Kinetic Melee |
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Next question, how much damage are these two sets dishing out in DPS when reaching the damage cap?
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Super Strength
Kinetic Melee |
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In the case of SS, if we consider Bruising a 20% damage buff to ST damage, about what a comparable SS Brute is outputting at 76% Fury for ST damage, 19% less for AoE, according to Mids. This assumes both are stacking Rage, of course. With the Brute having plenty of room to go higher with Inspirations, temp powers, Assault, what have you.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Next question, how much damage are these two sets dishing out in DPS when reaching the damage cap?
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KM, not my area of expertise.
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If I'm correct, this was before the self e-mail feature and at the time, his clones upped his regen significantly. Now I'm certain any melee character I went in there with won't have a problem. When I did this with those 2 characters, it was in that window between changes. |
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Exit mission. Reset mission (to prevent uber bi spawning in meantime). Go to Mender Roebuck (He's, like, FIFTEEN FEET AWAY). Buy reds. Buy More Reds. Place in Email if you have a REALLY bad secondary. Engage fight with Trapdoor - consume reds (If you Do NOT have the +5% insp bonus, that's 16 to cap or 12 if you want build up to matter - I like to go 10 so I can pop a second round of insps).
Engage Trapdoor (Addendum - if you lack KB protection bring a couple Break Frees instead of a complete tray of Reds). After 2 seconds, he has 1 bifurcation - after 15 seconds he's down. Next mission! (And something resembling a challenge!) |
And I agree once again with JB (I think I just heard another seal breaking and trumpets blaring signifying the end is nigh) but I did kind of like that I had to think outside the box a bit and use the environment to my advantage and not a straight out slug fest.
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Yes, we should in fact not mention that, since capping damage with a Kin is not a tanker-specific problem. It's a bit dishonest to call it a "problem" at all, really, rather than "exactly what a Kin is supposed to do and what they are so widely loved for".
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Not to mention on teams/leagues (yeah I know BrandX said on their own) one Kin and a couple Leadership toggles is going to put most Tankers past the cap if they use Build Up or Rage. Shield takes even less.
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Of all the melee ATs, Tankers are the only one that a single Kin will even come close to letting them hit their cap. The other, non-melee ATs that have similar caps to Tankers, also bring significant force multipliers by themselves. Clearly, it would be extremely unbalancing if for example you put eight Kin Controllers together pushing over %1000 damage buffs collectively and could make use of it way more than they can already. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Yes, we should in fact not mention that, since capping damage with a Kin is not a tanker-specific problem. It's a bit dishonest to call it a "problem" at all, really, rather than "exactly what a Kin is supposed to do and what they are so widely loved for".
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And again, I ask: if Brutes are allowed to have essentially the same potential survivability as Tankers, why are Tankers not allowed the same damage potential as a Brute? Why the double standard? Brutes can benefit greatly from being buffed both defensively and offensively. Tankers, not as much because defensively they usually don't need it, and offensively, they get hung up on their low cap.
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That is simply not true. 240% from a Controller/Corruptor Fulcrum Shift (Defenders give even more) will put any halfway-competently-slotted Scrapper, Blaster, or Stalker at or near the damage cap, before even considering Siphon Power or leadership buffs, much less Build Up powers and red inspirations.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Of all the melee ATs, Tankers are the only one that a single Kin will even come close to letting them hit their cap.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And again, I ask: if Brutes are allowed to have essentially the same potential survivability as Tankers, why are Tankers not allowed the same damage potential as a Brute?
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I am so tempted to quote this in my signature. It may be one of the most true statements I have ever seen on these boards.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Because theoretical maximum potential with unlimited buffs is far less relevant than actual in-game performance.
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60% may be near the cap, but there's still room for their Build Ups to matter at all. The Tanker will be smashed right into theirs 100% worth of damage buffs before that.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
That is simply not true. 240% from a Controller/Corruptor Fulcrum Shift (Defenders give even more) will put any halfway-competently-slotted Scrapper, Blaster, or Stalker at or near the damage cap, before even considering Siphon Power or leadership buffs, much less Build Up powers and red inspirations.
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| Because offense and defense are not the same thing. Because theoretical maximum potential with unlimited buffs is far less relevant than actual in-game performance. |
I say it does matter. If you don't think it does, why oppose it? If you don't oppose it, why are you arguing with me?
I also take it you don't deny there's a double standard if you're making excuses for it. Well I don't think it's fair to Tankers. A double standard is pretty much unfair by definition.
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Yes, there's still a bit of room, if Fulcrum Shift is the only buff present. But that is a much weaker statement than the one I was replying to, which said Tankers were the only melee AT that would "even come close" to the damage cap with a single Kin on the team, rather than a single Fulcrum Shift.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
60% may be near the cap, but there's still room for their Build Ups to matter at all. The Tanker will be smashed right into theirs 100% worth of damage buffs before that.
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| Then if it's pretty much irrelevant, as you claim, why NOT bring the Tanker's cap in line with Brutes? |
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My Dominator disagrees.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The other, non-melee ATs that have similar caps to Tankers, also bring significant force multipliers by themselves.
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ED is still a poorly documented mess. I was reading the Massively column recently where Elliot was trying hard to explain the system to folks. And he still managed to make a mistake. In what is probably the most casual MMORPG on the market, the enhancement system and ED in particular is a complicated mess.
/threadjack
There was a lot of crap done in that era that was just horrible. Look at the fact that a whole power set was completely changed. Jack, and Cryptic selling this game to NCsoft is the best thing to ever happen to CoX.
No, I am not over the regen changes. I will NEVER get over them. The cottage rule exists because of crap like that and crap pulled in that space MMO.
Oh, and were we not talking about scrappers?
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