Concerned about Scrappers.

if they could do something like this w/out horrible redraw times, it'd be snazzy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UPCfzJP-fA

It would certainly make my life easier if they actually were that crazy, but unfortunately they are not.

Incidentally, from day one my biggest glitch with the game has been an inability to make Doctor Strange. And it wouldn't be hard for the devs to grant me that: level 9 access is all that would be required.

When Jack was creating Melee/Defense and putting in Defense/Melee just to screw with J_B and Melee/Ranged to screw with everybody else, he forgot to put in God/Mode.

*Starts hugging Arcanaville until he is drug away giggling and laughing.

Yes, "back to super strength" because it's an example of how idiotic the design can be. It makes very little sense to give the super strength powerset to an AT that's not supposed to hit things really hard. They didn't give it to Scrappers. For heroes, Tankers were the only option to have a super strong hero character for years. Yet, you argue that Tankers are not based on, nor intended to reflect those characters. That makes little sense, especially when someone without any real knowledge of the game can easily point to a Claws Regen Scrapper by power sets alone and tell exactly who that's supposed to be:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/12...-of-scrappers/

Indeed, when most people point to examples of Tankers in comics, they don't pick out the Blob, or Butterball, or Mr. Immortal or any other low damage distraction:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/02...se-of-tankers/

"Everybody knows what Tankers are supposed to be" is a bit of hyperbole that's more true than you'd like to admit. The sheer number of super strong bricks flying around Atlas using the Tanker as their AT, the fact of Statesman being a very transparent expy, indicates what is going trough most people's heads.

You can't argue that's not what Tankers are supposed to be about. The zeitgeist of the game obviously disagrees.

All you can argue is that Tankers can't actually be that, because having damage and survivability isn't balanced. Well, Brutes prove that wrong, as they survive just fine, enough to be the best soloing AT in the game (if not tied with Scrappers), enough to have tanked for red side for years and have the same caps as Tankers for survivability while also having great damage and great damage potential. If Brutes can have it both ways when it comes to the caps, so can Tankers. Period. Otherwise, don't hand me a pile of crap and tell me it's balanced and fine for one AT but not another.

Would increasing the Tanker damage cap make them heavy hitters? No, but it would allow them to be. It would give them the same chance to get the most offensively and defensively from buffing as Brutes do, and in the future, if better damage mechanics or buffs came along, they'd be able to use them. Raising the cap is the least disruptive to the status-quo and the least work intensive thing that I can think of the goes towards improving Tankers in a way that makes them truer to their comic counterparts.

If you don't think they should be truer to their comic counterparts, you're free to have your own opinion. I disagree. Strongly, adamantly, belligerently so; because nobody ever got anything changed by folding to opposition.


.

If that's what you want, sure. I'm not going to spam a bunch of posts disagreeing with you like a dipwad. I would, however, suggest the aforementioned Epic pool improvements (creating more pools, lowering the level they become available and putting in more defensive options for Blasters) would be a more likely suggestion to go through, and one I'd back.


.

Okay, Here is a little something I threw together. I restarted a level 40 Invul/Dark Tank, and have almost everything slotted I can at 41. I will finish the build next week. I think it could still be stronger, but I think i nailed 90-95% of what i wanted. All I ask is that you show me your Brute that can reach this Potential Level of survivability. GL. (oh, and Perma dull Pain does count as helping survival, so I expect your Brute to match that health level.) Edit: I just noticed I am over one of the recharge rule of 5s 9going too fast, i'll throw in something w/ a 6.25 global instead somewhere)

ps just noticed I am over recharge on 10%s, will either 5 slot posi blast or 6 slot TOTH and pull Grav Anchor. probably, need to think about it. Like i said, I thrw this together very fast. The hard part is always that last few enhancers for me.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Potential: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- ImpSkn-Status:30(A)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(11), RctvArm-ResDam:40(11)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(5), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(5), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal:50(13)
Level 6: Resist Elements -- Aegis-Psi/Status:50(A), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(40)
Level 8: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam:40(13)
Level 10: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt:21(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg:50(34), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(37), Zinger-Acc/Rchg:50(37), Zinger-Taunt/Rng:50(50), Zinger-Dam%:50(50)
Level 12: Resist Energies -- GA-3defTpProc:50(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(43)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 16: Siphon Life -- SMotTanker-Dmg/Rchg:35(A), SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(17), SMotTanker-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(17), SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(33), SMotTanker-Rchg/Res%:50(33), HO:Golgi(36)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), LkGmblr-Def:50(19), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(34)
Level 20: Shadow Maul -- Armgdn-Dmg:50(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(21), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), Armgdn-Dam%:50(40)
Level 22: Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(27)
Level 24: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(25), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(25), RctvArm-ResDam:40(27)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(43)
Level 28: Soul Drain -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg:20(29), RechRdx-I:50(29)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), LkGmblr-Def:50(31), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(31)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(36)
Level 38: Midnight Grasp -- Hectmb-Dmg:50(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), Hectmb-Dam%:50(40)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apoc-Dmg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), Apoc-Dam%:50(43)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Ragnrk-Knock%:50(46)
Level 47: Soul Tentacles -- GravAnch-Immob:50(A), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg:50(48), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(48), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx:50(48), GravAnch-Hold%:50(50)
Level 49: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), RgnTis-Regen+:30(3), Numna-Heal:50(37), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(46)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
------------
Set Bonuses:
Impervious Skin
(Resist Physical Damage)

• Status Resistance 7.5%

Kinetic Combat
(Shadow Punch)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 2.75%
• 28.11 HP (1.5%) HitPoints
• 3.75% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 1.88% Defense(Melee)

Reactive Armor
(Temp Invulnerability)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 1.1%
• 1.25% Defense(Energy,Negative), 0.63% Defense(Ranged)
• 1.25% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.63% Defense(Melee)

Doctored Wounds
(Dull Pain)

• MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
• 1.26% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 4% Enhancement(Heal)
• 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 1.26% Resistance(Toxic,Psionic)

Aegis
(Resist Elements)

• 3% Resistance(Psionic)

Impervium Armor
(Resist Elements)

• 3% Resistance(Psionic)

Reactive Armor
(Unyielding)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 1.1%
• 1.25% Defense(Energy,Negative), 0.63% Defense(Ranged)
• 1.25% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.63% Defense(Melee)

Perfect Zinger
(Taunt)

• MezResist(Terrorized) 2.75%
• 10% (0.78 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(All)
• 3.13% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 1.56% Defense(Melee)

Gladiator's Armor
(Resist Energies)

• 3% Defense(Melee), 3% Defense(AoE), 3% Defense(Ranged), 3% Defense(Smashing), 3% Defense(Lethal), 3% Defense(Fire), 3% Defense(Cold), 3% Defense(Energy), 3% Defense(Negative), 3% Defense(Psionic)

Steadfast Protection
(Resist Energies)

• 3% Defense(Melee), 3% Defense(AoE), 3% Defense(Ranged), 3% Defense(Smashing), 3% Defense(Lethal), 3% Defense(Fire), 3% Defense(Cold), 3% Defense(Energy), 3% Defense(Negative), 3% Defense(Psionic)

Luck of the Gambler
(Combat Jumping)

• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Superior Might of the Tanker
(Siphon Life)

• 4% DamageBuff(All)
• 56.22 HP (3%) HitPoints
• 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 2.52% Resistance(Toxic,Psionic)

Luck of the Gambler
(Invincibility)

• 10% (0.78 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 21.08 HP (1.13%) HitPoints
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Armageddon
(Shadow Maul)

• 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
• 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Kinetic Combat
(Kick)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 2.75%
• 28.11 HP (1.5%) HitPoints
• 3.75% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 1.88% Defense(Melee)

Reactive Armor
(Tough)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 1.1%
• 1.25% Defense(Energy,Negative), 0.63% Defense(Ranged)
• 1.25% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.63% Defense(Melee)

Shield Wall
(Tough Hide)

• 3% Resistance(Lethal), 3% Resistance(Smashing), 3% Resistance(Fire), 3% Resistance(Cold), 3% Resistance(Energy), 3% Resistance(Negative), 3% Resistance(Psionic), 3% Resistance(Toxic)

Luck of the Gambler
(Tough Hide)

• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Rectified Reticle
(Soul Drain)

• 1.88% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.94% Defense(Melee)
• 20% Perception

Luck of the Gambler
(Weave)

• 10% (0.78 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 21.08 HP (1.13%) HitPoints
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Hecatomb
(Midnight Grasp)

• 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
• 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Apocalypse
(Gloom)

• 16% (1.25 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 56.22 HP (3%) HitPoints
• 4% DamageBuff(All)
• 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Ragnarok
(Dark Obliteration)

• 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
• 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

Gravitational Anchor
(Soul Tentacles)

• 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
• 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)

Winter's Gift
(Super Speed)

• 20% ResEffect(RunSpeed), 20% ResEffect(RechargeTime), 20% ResEffect(FlySpeed)

Numina's Convalescence
(Health)

• 12% (0.94 HP/sec) Regeneration

Performance Shifter
(Stamina)

• 5% JumpSpeed, 5% JumpHeight, 5% FlySpeed, 5% RunSpeed

Level 9 access?

I don't know how you'd even start making Dr. Strange in this game. Roughly four hundred and fifty percent of his powers have no in game application.

You know when I got a lot happier with the game? when someone told me the how different the written descriptions on the character generation pages are from the developers actual discussions on what they were creating.

I live with a copy editor (my wife). I honestly do not believe the people responsible for putting descriptions on powers, archetypes, or really anything written in the game even know what a copy editor does. I would not let the people (who are not devs) who write the descriptions for this game write "men's" and "women's" on doors. Because they would get it wrong.

So, my suggestion is stop reading that useless verbage and actually look at what the archetype does. Also, ask some people if they have information about some original discussion regarding the archetype by devs. There are some good historians lurking on the boards if you ask nice.

I level from one to 50, I don't PL to 50 and exemp down. So I would need them at four, not forty four.

But you misunderstand if you think I'm implying you'd oppose that suggestion. I think you have no sense of game balance requirements when it comes to tankers, so I would expect no less when it comes to any other archetype. Its the fact that you think anything goes that should be considered as the context for what you think Tankers are supposed to be.

Well, I was thinking the 10-14 range they'd start to kick in. Treat them more like a proper tertiary power set and not an afterthought that kicks in when the character is almost finished.


.

All damage in this game is relative. Tankers DO hit incredibly hard. They can punch a truck and make it explode. Just because they do less damage than some archetypes has no bearing on whether they hit hard at all. It just means Fireballs are that big or Stalker blows are that precise.

One particularly noticeable, lacking realism element of this game is that attacks either completely hit or completely miss. If you assume some attacks don't do this, and damage delivered is based on the average of all hits (to the head, chest, legs, arms, etc) then current AT damage values make perfect sense. "Damage" does not have to literally mean the same thing as "direct force of impact blow to blow."

So a Tanker missing a large, stationary pylon 80% of the time more than a Brute as an example is supposed to make them less of a joke offensively? "Oh, Magoo, you've done it again!" comes to mind.

Yeah, nice try.


[Edit]
A Praetorian senior citizen can throw a rock at a truck and make it explode.



.

You don't want them to hit less often, you do want them to hit harder, you don't want them to be significantly slower, but you aren't asking for them to have the highest offense. You just want to hit harder but no less often. And if the only way to do that is to make them have the highest offense, that's just a strange coincidence.

That's an interesting premise I hadn't quite thought of: damage being related to where you hit.

You can say Tankers' damage isn't that high because they generally don't know where to hit. To them, 'the body' (or just connecting) is where you hit but what do they know? Hitting a Tanker in the groin is like sneezing on his ankle and stabbing him in the ear is like smacking him on the butt. It's all the same to him so he's not emphasizing that part.

On the other hand, a Stalker or Blaster has been shot one too many times in the knee cap not to know it's excruciating and if the foe isn't wearing armor there...

Although that makes me think...I need to brainstorm the idea of linking improved damage (no, not DPS but the actual on situation number of points) to accuracy. Wouldn't it be something if that extra -def and 'capped' hit chance amounted to something more beyond personal damage through capped damage enhancement?

Definitely, it's a big mistake to take the game too literally. Citizens and Tsoo Sorcerors aren't really in a tug-of-war all day and night, they're just there for when we want to play hero.

How powerful your hero is really comes down to your concept- a highly trained but normal human may fight a steel robot, but when you're playing a mighty demigod, the robot is super-advanced and armoured in Impervium.

As long as you feel powerful enough, what the guy next to you is doing is irrelevant. The game is what you make it. Have fun.

Keep in mind that Johnny's not arguing for a Tanker damage cap increase. He's just arguing. They can raise the damage cap tomorrow and he'll still be here playing the forums, creating drama for attention.

But as for the cap- you're right that it wouldn't make much difference. In iTrials, my Tank is often at the damage cap from all the buffs, so much that I don't need to use Rage. But I usually don't use Rage on a large team anyway, that extra 80% isn't going to make much difference compared to the damage output by the Blasters and other damage ATs. So if I don't care about 80%, it's hard to get excited about 100%.

The other side to the argument is that, since it's not a big deal, why not go ahead and raise it? The only downside I can see is other ATs also wanting their damage cap raised, and we get into power creep. But considering all the buffs and Incarnate powers the game keeps throwing at us, power creep doesn't seem like much of an issue anymore. My Tank has a better nuke than my Blaster, he might as well have the same damage cap.

Wanna put money on that?

If they brought the Tanker cap in line with Brutes, and didn't you know, go and raise the Brute cap a month later or something, I doubt you'd hear from me on Tankers again. People who've been around long enough should remember I pretty much nagged non stop for Invulnerability to be looked at as much, and when it got fixed I clammed up pretty quick.

But of course to me that bet is still a losing proposition because if I ever complained about anything ever again, you'd point to it as "evidence" that I'm unpleasable, even if you in fact agreed with the complaints. Because you and others really aren't arguing against Tanker offense being fixed, you're arguing against me to create drama.


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Bull. Unless you're arguing that for the past several years you were just completely unaware of the existence of damage caps and most of the game's combat mechanics and that it's only very recently that you realized that that was actually the only thing that had been wrong with Tankers for all the years you've been insisting that the problem is that the AT isn't both tougher and more damaging than all the other ATs. Anyone who is at all familiar with your posting history would find that extremely straining of their credulity. You have insisted for as long as i can recall you posting anything on the boards that Tankers should be both stronger and tougher than any other AT.

i don't mind this sudden shift and narrowing of focus, but i don't really believe it would last as long as it took the buff to go live if it did happen. Not that my SD/SS Tanker would mind if it happened, but i'm sure you would immediately start pushing for a bunch of other changes in order to make the buff less of an occasional benefit for a few powersets. i mean more than you already have in this *originally-non-Tanker-related-at-all* thread.

However, i really am not concerned about Scrappers either. They kick *** just fine without needing any fancier toys than their original crit ability.

Fixed.

There is no "shift of focus". My goal is to get Tankers as reasonably close to reflecting their comic counterparts as possible. "Reasonably" means not throwing balance completely in the toilet, regardless of what Arcana accuses me of. "Close" is something I'm willing to negotiate. But the cap issue is where I draw the line at because it is a demonstrable double standard that needs be addressed.

The truth is Tankers hitting the damage cap wasn't something I expected to happen even with Incarnates, partially because I was unaware that the enhancement of powers counted against the damage cap. It's not something that was really shoved in my face until Combat Numbers and even then wasn't something I thought about until Brutes had their last Fury changes. Why would I? I didn't think the devs would give Brutes the same survival caps as Tankers and then let them do way higher damage at the cap. I thought the devs had more sense than that. Until that point I only thought it was a matter of making more damage boosting choices available to Tankers, I didn't know it was a mostly moot point for several sets. Now there *are* several powers like that, Call to Justice for example, that didn't exist until relatively recently, and now I see the problem that I didn't before.

Also now powers like Barrier exist, which let pretty much any melee AT have two godmodes or Rebirth granting a massive heal. When you can get Barrier, and are fighting a level above all the enemies in the game you were fighting against the year before, that along with level shifts mean that Tankers having better survivability out of the box isn't as attractive anymore. Yeah, this only applies to level 50's, but with the increased focus on end game and it being easier than ever to get to 50, it's more relevant.

But it doesn't matter if I post long threads explaining myself in what I think is a reasonable, rational manner or if I post crazy rants about the devs hating Tankers. At least the crazy rants are easier to fit in while off-tanking ITFs.

I'm sure me saying otherwise makes no difference to you. Of course at the same time three other people will pop in with "see, he doesn't even bother denying it!".

But the point is moot because you're not who I have to convince and I've already said I think the devs are beyond trying to reason with. But I never was one to give up on a cause, even when it's probably hopeless.


.

Hi. It's the future now.

My damage capped Tanker gets **** all from three of the four Hybrid threes, and nothing that improves him offensively.

My Brute will get plenty of improvement offensively and defensively from both Assault and Melee trees.


Pretty much exactly what I said would happen, did.

So will you admit there's a problem with Brute and Tanker caps now?



.

Your damage capped tanker gets nothing from damage bonuses, sure.

Your damage capped tanker does get something from damage procs and criticals.

Criticals would be cool. Where are they at? The ones that don't work off Containment?


.

No, I won't "admit" that there's a problem now. There still isn't a problem now. When Hybrid goes live, there will be a problem, though. Go bring it up in the Hybrid feedback thread, where a dev is likely to see it, although since it's a thread about Hybrid in general and not Hybrid Assault for Tankers specifically, please do not derail the whole thread about it.

The Control Radial branch gives vaguely Scourge-style procs (note that some of the powers are currently flipped, so Radial is on the left side in t2 and t3, rather than the right side where it usually is), so you do have other options for damage, but yes, Assault Hybrid makes the damage cap a much more significant issue than it was before.