What could be done to incentivize the 'grey' alignments?
I run Brutes (used to be almost only brutes) Scrapper (my new main) Dominators (many 50'd experiments) and Blasters (don't even ask, but I keep trying). There is only one good alignment for Brutes and Doms. Villain. For Scrapper and Blasters I prefer Hero. The two grey alignments? Yeah, no. I go on them so I can team with friends and get more content. period.
They need to do a little "powerset proliferation" and let you pick whatever Alignment power you want. If the game is truly balanced it won't matter. If the game is not truly balanced someone is getting messed over (I suspect Blueside Brutes...)
Just sayin'.
Best answer to the subject line? Alignment merits. Seriously, the ability to hop between Paragon and the Isles is NOT compensation enough for losing those valuable little cookies.
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Virtue Server
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Seriously, the ability to hop between Paragon and the Isles is NOT compensation enough for losing those valuable little cookies.
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And before anyone asks, no amount of Task Force Commander will ever get me to roll Hero. I always go Villain for the Mayhem Missions. Plus, it's nice talking to Arbiter Rein without any required tips.
Give Fear Incarnate a +DMG buff with it. Give the confuse a +DMG buff to it.
Okay really, I think the ability to go to either side is worth it. I don't worry about the hero merits myself.
Buuut, what would make it more worth it imo, is if one could join opposing side SG/VG! Rogues who can join blueside SG and reverse for Vigilantes.
Id go Rogue just for the awesome tips, nevermind I think quite a few of them work for heroes period.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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The BrandX Collection
Maybe the devs don't want players to remain 'grey'. It's a transitory phase. The only reason they did it was to please all the RPers who wanted to be able to cross sides. It wasn't for more power-gaming options. At least that's my opinion.
Maybe the devs don't want players to remain 'grey'. It's a transitory phase. The only reason they did it was to please all the RPers who wanted to be able to cross sides. It wasn't for more power-gaming options. At least that's my opinion.
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Not to mention the new alignment change tokens already completely bypass this anyway.
The badges and accolades for the different sides don't award til you change alignments so that's kind of useless.
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If you're one of those people who only care for badges that have powers or rewards attached to them, that's not much consolation. But if you're a badge hunter, you can add quite a few without ever completely switching sides.
The incentive to the "grey" alignments is the ability to cross over - you can join teams on either side (including regular missions) and do virtually any content in the game as a Rogue or Vigilante (though you can't lead all the content). The penalty is a restriction to "regular" merits and a weaker alignment power.
The incentive to the "pure" alignments is access to Hero Merits and a better alignment power, and the penalty is being locked out of half of the game.
Personally, I keep half or less of my characters "pure"; I don't need to farm the heck out of Alignment Merits on every character, especially when I can get anything they earn through other sources, usually without a time gate. In my opinion, it's the pure alignments that need incentivising.
@Roderick
I think one of the big problems is the Signature Story Arcs.
As a 'Pure' Alignment you can get 1 Alignment Merit and 20 Merits repeatable up to 50, then the Astral and Threads.
As a 'Grey' Alignment you only get the 20 merit option up to 50. You can't even get 20 merits twice by doing a hero and a villain SSA. Just 20 merits for one SSA per week.
You know on most of my Vigilantes and Rogues I don't even bother running them? I'm planning on waiting on characters to get to 50 so they don't effectively 'waste' their first completion bonus on 20 merits.
And as much as devs have said being a 'tourist' alignment lets you play all the content in the game, that's only if you get someone on the other side of things to run it for you to join in. Not to mention that Rogues can no longer get the Atlas Park or original Dark Astoria exploration badges, while Vigilantes can get all the Rogue Isles exploration badges.
Apart from the SSA screwjob that Vigilantes get, majority of my characters are vigilantes in that they can just hop between the two cities doing whatever he pleases.
That alone is enough of a reward imo.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Being able to run any TF at any time is extremely significant. I had never tried the half-way alignments until just recently because I assumed I cared more about alignment merits. How wrong I was! I would so much rather be able to jump onto anything that looks good that someone advertises on a server channel without having to switch away from the character I want to play. I'd be lying if I said my stance had nothing to do with the fact that everything is dirt cheap on the market now, though.
Speaking of SSAs, did you know that rogues and vigilantes can run both sets of SSAs? It's really true! That's another reward: you can make the NPCs look like raging morons for thinking you're on their side after you just beat the stuffing out of them.
With regards to the original question: nothing, no one likes a fence sitter. Pick a side already ya bum!
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
1) A homeland. We have a hero side and a villian side. we need a rogue side. I think - with the story arc changes - that a 'broken" Praetoria would be wonderfully suited to that role.
2) "Grey" arcs. solo and team arcs that require a certain "moral flexibility." This would require certain choices to be made in the arcs and missions.
3) Special "grey" perks and awards.
4) A "grey" EAT/VEAT. My suggestion would be the "Profiteer," a stealthy blasterish AT with secondary mastermindish support powers (eg support pets) with an innate ability to generate better/extra rewards for teams.
... Hit it ...
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As long as its not worth running SSAs and tips for rog/vig, I won't run them. When its fixed (if ever) I'll reconsider.
Edit: First the devs have to decide this is WAI. If not, they should consider an adjustment.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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1) A homeland. We have a hero side and a villian side. we need a rogue side. I think - with the story arc changes - that a 'broken" Praetoria would be wonderfully suited to that role.
2) "Grey" arcs. solo and team arcs that require a certain "moral flexibility." This would require certain choices to be made in the arcs and missions. 3) Special "grey" perks and awards. |
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
1) A homeland. We have a hero side and a villian side. we need a rogue side. I think - with the story arc changes - that a 'broken" Praetoria would be wonderfully suited to that role.
2) "Grey" arcs. solo and team arcs that require a certain "moral flexibility." This would require certain choices to be made in the arcs and missions. 3) Special "grey" perks and awards. 4) A "grey" EAT/VEAT. My suggestion would be the "Profiteer," a stealthy blasterish AT with secondary mastermindish support powers (eg support pets) with an innate ability to generate better/extra rewards for teams. |
Though I would add to the list that the biggest thing you could do to help convince people to play purple is to only have one alignment. Having two is just stupid.
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This game isn't just arbitrary mechanics. It's a game about character concepts.
Vigilantes, as defined in CoH, are pretty much the exact opposite of Rogues concept wise. You can't say "combine them and be done" just because the mechanics are similar.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
And as much as devs have said being a 'tourist' alignment lets you play all the content in the game, that's only if you get someone on the other side of things to run it for you to join in. |
Does this mean, as a Rogue, I have to have someone to join up on their missions to play on either side? And I can only do paper/tip missions and can't start SF/TFs?
Or does that mean I can only pick up missions from red contacts and not blue contacts?
If it's the former, that's crap and I'll probably have to switch out of that soon. If it's the latter...I can live with that I suppose...
1) A homeland. We have a hero side and a villian side. we need a rogue side. I think - with the story arc changes - that a 'broken" Praetoria would be wonderfully suited to that role.
2) "Grey" arcs. solo and team arcs that require a certain "moral flexibility." This would require certain choices to be made in the arcs and missions. 3) Special "grey" perks and awards. 4) A "grey" EAT/VEAT. My suggestion would be the "Profiteer," a stealthy blasterish AT with secondary mastermindish support powers (eg support pets) with an innate ability to generate better/extra rewards for teams. |
Heroes already have the perk of being on the side with the most players. Villains, while limited at least get an alignment power that's better. But in that regards, it would be cool if, for reaffirming your alignment as any will improve the alignment power, granting a better team buff (but not to self) for heroes, recharging faster for villains and recharging faster + longer effects for Vig/Ro. Vig/Ro won't have very good effects compared, just longer duration.
As for the other stuff you post Jet_Boy...cool but maybe a little more elaboration.
The 'grey side' is a good idea if they ever finish Praetoria, giving it a 30-50 range area(s). But they'd really need to make more villainous stuff for First Ward...maybe they have and I don't know about it though...The two times I ran much of 1st ward was as heroes...but good, bad and grey need to be produced to make it worthwhile as 'the tarnished gold side'.
For Grey Arcs, I'd really like this to help differentiate the alignments. Since the concept of the Rogue is someone in it for profit, being rewarded differently would be awesome...maybe not 'more' but non-time gated and not mixed. Make it so, as a Rogue, you're a reward merit collecting machine and any rewards you get reflect this. Vigilante is more on the side of going too far for the ideals of justice...beyond outright killing NPCs (which can't be done all the time), maybe lean their rewards less on merits and more on personal entitlement of power...so some of their reward choices don't grant merits at all but temp powers like the new trials we got, but instead of gating them by level, gate them by in-game time and tokened to use whenever you want (but lost if you change alignments). Stuff like inherent mez protection, inherent range, inherent HP and regen, temp ranged or melee attacks all reobtainable as rewards over merits and stuff.
Another point I'd like to add...can you join Super/Villain groups as a grey? If not, wouldn't it be grand to have a whole in-game mercenary organization that you can work for/with that focuses on giving you work (since that's exactly what you're looking for as a Rogue)? Just add a sort of 'underground' spot like Fort Trident/The Crucible that has a guy that unlocks contacts for merits...you pay him some inf, he informs the contact that you're trustworthy member of their group, the contact hires you and you do their missions to earn 10-20 merits. You can have a whole side story of you working up the ranks in importance and individuals from either red or blue having it out to off you...the angle of your missions is manipulating people (namely Heroes and Villains) to get done what should be done or to complete the task proper for your paycheck. Of course, while some of the missions may have you crossing sides to talk to NPCs, all the actual doors should be on 1 side so to get them done, you need either the alignment of that particular side (blue or red) or someone with grey alignment.
Thinking about it, it makes quite a bit of sense...you working for a wealthy guy living comfortably in Founders Falls by doing his dirty work in St Martial, all the while pissing off Johnny and Hardcase who'll be out for your blood.
Meh, maybe some people don't like the idea of working for other people, being their errand boy or whatever...I like the idea for some characters. Heck, some of my characters wouldn't mind doing good heroic stuff *just* to piss off some villains they don't like...and get paid while doing it, of course.
A Grey AT I'm not sure is worthwhile...the last time we got a new AT was before we could switch sides. Now you can get practically any AT to any side so it's moot.
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Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
This game isn't just arbitrary mechanics. It's a game about character concepts.
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Vigilantes, as defined in CoH, are pretty much the exact opposite of Rogues concept wise.
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Sure I can. The mechanics of having two different purple alignments are clunky and awkward. And since combining them, if done correctly, would improve the mechanics without stifling character concepts, there's no good reason not to do it.
Yes, it is.
I never said it's just arbitrary mechanics. I realize that character concepts are important (to some), but there's no good reason why a single alignment between hero and villain couldn't support the exact same concepts as the two we have now do. But only because they've been defined that way. It would be just as easy to combine them into a single alignment and open the concept up to include both those willing to step over the line a bit to do the right thing, and those who are strictly out for personal gain regardless of the morals involved. Sure I can. The mechanics of having two different purple alignments are clunky and awkward. And since combining them, if done correctly, would improve the mechanics without stifling character concepts, there's no good reason not to do it. |
So please describe what "it" would actually be.
What would the name of this new alignment be? What missions would lead to it from each side? What would its alignment power be? What would be done with the old vigilante/rogue missions and powers?
Importantly, what access would this new alignment have, and what limitations?
You say it would have to be "done correctly", but what exactly is the correct way to do it?
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
Yeah, that dead horse again.
Finally decided to take my praetorian born Rogue over to Paragon. Participated in a DIB, which was pretty fun. After finishing up I cruised around Atlas a little and thought about what else I could do running around, picking up a couple exploration badges. I'm content enough to keep him as a rogue so hero tips was pretty well out of the question.
Radio missions weren't all that appealing. Though I did pick up a radio!
I could do taskforces, if anyone were recruiting for them, or start my own. But then, all I'm getting out of it is reward merits. The badges and accolades for the different sides don't award til you change alignments so that's kind of useless. And if I want to run team content I've still got all the strikeforces redside to do anyhow since they barely get run. I guess the upside is heroside TFs get run a bit more often?
I could do the.. what 2 heroside zone events? The troll rave and the burning building. Again just more badges, and not even fun ones to get. I could go to Praetoria just as easily and do the zone events there that actually give some tangible rewards like an emote or some reward merits, etc. And none of those care about my alignment.
I could go hunt GMs. Except GM rewards are pretty cruddy. The only one that gives decent rewards now, Adamastor, can be spawned on both sides of the pond. And being a rogue, the Rogue Isle GMs are more valuable as they can unlock accolades and contacts. One minor plus is that I have better access to Hamidon raids, since The Hive tends to get more business than The Abyss (At least on Victory).
Then there's the alignment powers. A 10 second fear/confuse and a 15 second -10% DMG or -10% To-hit on a 3 minute cooldown timer. Compare to a 30 second +40% DMG and +10% To-Hit and a personal +30% recharge for 20 seconds and an AT specific boost, most getting a +60% DMG boost for 20 seconds.
.. does it really need to be said? Is the disparity not -blindingly- obvious? in fact I use Call to Justice frequently in iTrials and Hamidon raids, it's an -amazing- boost on big groups for a sizable chunk of time. Frenzy is awesome on my dominator when I need to refill my Domination bar (say if I've been hosped) or I get tackled by a boss early in the mission I need to lock down ASAP.
Fear Incarnate and Duplicity don't even have high enough magnitude to affect bosses without some secondary power to stack the fear and confuse. And even if they did, 10 seconds is crap. It's a very brief moment of relief, and even then they can still attack through a Fear. On my rogue it's used as a slight panic button if I start getting overwhelmed. It's not worth using any other time. There are so many tweaks that could be done to either power to make them more useful. Shorten the recharge, lengthen the effect, or make the magnitude higher. I usually save Call to Justice and Frenzy for bosses, I wouldn't mind being able to do the same with Duplicity or Fear Incarnate. The -To-hit and -DMG are.. ok? but on their own fairly inconsequential unless paired with your own +res or +def. (Being my rogue is a blaster, neither applies >>) And they don't compare at all to the massive damage buff or nice recharge/+to-hit of the other powers.
Ok so besides tweaking the alignment powers, what else can be done to make it worthwhile to stick around as a Rogue/Vigilante?
One thing that came to mind is increasing merit rewards for them. We've already established via their morality mission reward that Reward Merits are the substitute they receive in lieu of alignment merits. Well then let us earn more of them. Something like a 10% increase to merit rewards, or 10% increase to merit rewards from tourist activities. Or any time we get an alignment merit (lookin at you SSAs) give us 60. As it is, the only reward from any given SSA for a non-50 rogue/vigilante is 20 measly reward merits. Give us more since we can't get the oh so better alignment merits.
And maybe some alignment exclusive accolades. Stuff that requires badges from both sides like 2 exploration badges heroside, 2 villainside and a GM defeat badge or something.
Or make some zone events that are actually worth playing tourist for.
Anyway, that's about it.