Issue 22, a week later.
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-03-13 04:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
Yes.
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Then your post about having 'absolutely no idea what all is involved in fixing a bug and updating the game' is well rather silly. They fixed the problems already, so why instead of going live with version 22.1 and then making us wait several weeks with bugs and issues already logged and solved on beta, why don't they, just an idea go live with version 22.3b or whatever the current working version on beta is?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
People complain a release is bugged but not broken. People complain if a release is pushed back a week to fix something. Both sides claim their faces are slapped.
The numbers on Fade and SA aren't "wrong", they are the original numbers. We've been told they are being tweaked/improved in a later update. The pet, is another problem all together yes, but Issue 22 itself is bigger than a controller's pet. In the grand scheme of things it will be fixed, it will be fixed soon enough and forgotten even quicker and the world will keep spinning on its axis.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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You're making the assumption that the beta server is a copy-paste of the live server. Or that the 'fixed' version of beta isn't conflicting with something else. Or that version 22.1 wasn't already being shipped as they fixed the problems. Do you honestly think updates are something they just download like a YouTube video? You can't just apply a patch to a server several states away every time you fix a bug. You have to physically drive there, and that expense is going to get crazy in a hurry if you do that *every* time you find and fix a bug. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Then your post about having 'absolutely no idea what all is involved in fixing a bug and updating the game' is well rather silly. They fixed the problems already, so why instead of going live with version 22.1 and then making us wait several weeks with bugs and issues already logged and solved on beta, why don't they, just an idea go live with version 22.3b or whatever the current working version on beta is?
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Ultimately though? You, most of the people in this thread, and even *me* don't know the full details of anything. So we can complain until hell freezes over but it's not going to alter reality even a little.
Bug fixes take time. End of story.
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Because software is never just -that- easy.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Then your post about having 'absolutely no idea what all is involved in fixing a bug and updating the game' is well rather silly. They fixed the problems already, so why instead of going live with version 22.1 and then making us wait several weeks with bugs and issues already logged and solved on beta, why don't they, just an idea go live with version 22.3b or whatever the current working version on beta is?
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To put it simply the build "22.3b" in your example may indeed have some number of bug fixes, but it might also be filled with all sorts of -other- bugs. Just because 22.3b might solve some problems doesn't mean it couldn't introduce a whole load of others without proper testing.
Bugs aren't just isolated things that can be dealt with on an individual basis. Entire BUILDS have to be tested, not just piece-parts.
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I would measure that people here play a variety of MMO games. Saying that I can think of at least one MMO off the top of my head that does exactly this in terms of software rollouts and have for years. They will roll a quarterly issue out like I22 and within a short time sometimes the same day you will see a series of updates 22.01-22.09 etc...if needed updating along the way.|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
The disconnect is you simply can NOT go.. oh... it's fixed on Beta so just push that.. software rollouts NEVER work like that for good reason.
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Paragon can and will do WTF they want, but to say their way is the only way to do it is far from accurate and they could learn a lesson or three from someone doing it MUCH better IMHO.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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There may be MMOs out there with very efficient beta and regression testing operations. But there really is no such thing as "plug-n-play" bug fixing without the possibility of affecting other preexisting code.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I would measure that people here play a variety of MMO games. Saying that I can think of at least one MMO off the top of my head that does exactly this in terms of software rollouts and have for years. They will roll a quarterly issue out like I22 and within a short time sometimes the same day you will see a series of updates 22.01-22.09 etc...if needed updating along the way.
Paragon can and will do WTF they want, but to say their way is the only way to do it is far from accurate and they could learn a lesson or three from someone doing it MUCH better IMHO. |
If you looked into what's actually going on here you'd see that this game doesn't really operate all that much differently than any other MMO out there as far as these things are concerned.
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This isn't true, all of the above is possible, since there is a massive precedent in a game that does all 3 that has been around for a while. It's a 4 letter MMO created by a 5 letter company, which puts out updates the size of coh issues near monthly (with world events in between updates), is a standard $15 a month, and any bugs that surface to live are squashed the very same day or within 2 days tops. What you say is impossible already exists.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
MisterD and Bentmind,
For your own sanity, you need to change your expectations else you will be forever angry. These things are never fixed in a manner of days, they are fixed in a manner of weeks and in some cases, months. It's the nature of an MMO. 'Fixing' things requires coding of software. That's not like gluing together a broken piece of wood. It's not 'easy'. With MMOs you get two of three things: Lots of content; cheap; bug-free. If you prioritize bug-free then you either pony up $60 a month to ensure that happens, or, you settle for just one Issue a year. If you want lots of cheap content, you settle for bugs. If they waited for all bugs to be fixed before releasing an issue, there would be only one issue a year. That will not change. Ever. |
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The other MMO that I've played that does that also had a significantly larger staff, playerbase and quarterly income. That's not to say it never happens with games that have smaller studios, but just that I've never seen it happen with one.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I would measure that people here play a variety of MMO games. Saying that I can think of at least one MMO off the top of my head that does exactly this in terms of software rollouts and have for years. They will roll a quarterly issue out like I22 and within a short time sometimes the same day you will see a series of updates 22.01-22.09 etc...if needed updating along the way.
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It's been a while but the 'other' MMO I played that did multiple hot fixes on the day of an update release also brought the servers down for each and every one of those hot fixes. I found it to be moderately annoying truth be told.
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Sure it exists... with companies which are obviously large enough to AFFORD that kind of operation. You do realize it requires money and infrastructure to accomplish that kind of thing right?|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
This isn't true, all of the above is possible, since there is a massive precedent in a game that does all 3 that has been around for a while. It's a 4 letter MMO created by a 4 letter company, which puts out updates the size of coh issues near monthly (with world events in between updates), is a standard $15 a month, and any bugs that surface to live are squashed the very same day or within 2 days tops. What you say is impossible already exists.
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Paragon Studios may be a great MMO company, but obviously it's not the largest one out there. *shrugs*
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I never said anything about plug and play fixes nor fixes not affecting preexisting code. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
There may be MMOs out there with very efficient beta and regression testing operations. But there really is no such thing as "plug-n-play" bug fixing without the possibility of affecting other preexisting code.
If you looked into what's actually going on here you'd see that this game doesn't really operate all that much differently than any other MMO out there as far as these things are concerned. |
Actually it does operate differently. It operates opposite of the company I just described in the post you quoted. Like I said they do rapid in-between issue fixes regularly and have for years which is in fact VERY different from what goes on here period no room for debating this fact.
If you want the name of the game PM me because arguing this point is silly in reference to this difference.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I don't think we are talking about the same game. The game I am talking about is developed in Iceland.
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Originally Posted by Oliin
The other MMO that I've played that does that also had a significantly larger staff, playerbase and quarterly income. That's not to say it never happens with games that have smaller studios, but just that I've never seen it happen with one.
It's been a while but the 'other' MMO I played that did multiple hot fixes on the day of an update release also brought the servers down for each and every one of those hot fixes. I found it to be moderately annoying truth be told. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Ahh yup, different game then. I didn't play that game long enough to go through a patch. Had a friend who loved it but it just wasn't for me.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I don't think we are talking about the same game. The game I am talking about is developed in Iceland.
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The only difference is the speed with which things happen. Obviously this other game you're talking about has more resources available to make things happen quicker.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I never said anything about plug and play fixes nor fixes not affecting preexisting code.
Actually it does operate differently. It operates opposite of the company I just described in the post you quoted. Like I said they do rapid in-between issue fixes regularly and have for years which is in fact VERY different from what goes on here period no room for debating this fact. If you want the name of the game PM me because arguing this point is silly in reference to this difference. |
But I would still argue your attempt to call the actual process these two companies use as being fundamentally different is naive at best. There are not -that- many different ways to run the proverbial railroad in this case.
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In my experience, the only time I've seen it happen is when a developer surfaces a bug which will (a) impact the financial systems, and/or (b) break the law.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Developers in the trenches rarely get to make the call as to when things are launched or when things can be "held back for another week to work all the bugs out".
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We can be heroes, just for one day
a week after I22 is released and people have powerleveled up to level 32 so they care about Umbral Beast
clearly the problem is not Umbral Beast, but people leveling too quickly
Heck 1 day after i22 went live I saw 6 level 50 dark controllers in a BAF.
Umbral Beast is broken, it makes "Jack Frost on a coffee break" look like the pet out of the Fusionette school of aggro management.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
I'd rather they don't rush out a fix just to meet double xp weekend. They should take their time and fix the damn thing right.
Do I wish they would have pushed back the issue to get more fixes in? Sure.
However, their parent company may not have allowed that or they might have a specific schedule in mind that overrides whatever the development team may prefer.
As someone who has been working in testing large IT projects and web deployments since November 2010, I can say with 100% certainty that SOME of folks in this thread are naive if they think the dev team has 100% say in when fixes are held back or go out.
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The DA entry bug is a good example of that - it only triggers when there's more than one instance of DA, which is much more likely on the live servers than on beta.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
There's always something that pops up because tons more people play on Live than Beta, therefore the chance of stumbling upon certain bugs rises by a lot due to being in a much more active and diverse player environment.
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For some reason, the zone selection window only pops up if you're going up the tentacle shaft, not down it - so if you do get stuck there, you just need to head back up it a short way and the window will appear.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There you go again, nobody said a damm thing about the "actual process" except you to try to be right, where you over generalized.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The only difference is the speed with which things happen. Obviously this other game you're talking about has more resources available to make things happen quicker.
But I would still argue your attempt to call the actual process these two companies use as being fundamentally different is naive at best. There are not -that- many different ways to run the proverbial railroad in this case. |
The fact of the matter remains other companies are able to put out fixes as they go instead of waiting like Paragon does, which was the "entire" point made from the start by me. You can say the others have more resources all you want because it was not about resources it was about the actual practice and they leave Paragon behind in that measure.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Without knowing how much resources is given to each by their parent companies for each dev team, QA team, etc, yes, you very well can say it IS POSSIBLY about resources.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
There you go again, nobody said a damm thing about the "actual process" except you to try to be right, where you over generalized.
The fact of the matter remains other companies are able to put out fixes as they go instead of waiting like Paragon does, which was the "entire" point made from the start by me. You can say the others have more resources all you want because it was not about resources it was about the actual practice and they leave Paragon behind in that measure. |
Unless you have some magic way of seeing the budgets of both enterprises, AND KNOW FOR A FACT that both teams have the same exact budgetary resources?
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There are a many different types of iteration when it comes to rapid online development, some are more rapid than others, and have *much* more inherent risk involved. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The fact of the matter remains other companies are able to put out fixes as they go instead of waiting like Paragon does, which was the "entire" point made from the start by me. You can say the others have more resources all you want because it was not about resources it was about the actual practice and they leave Paragon behind in that measure.
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Personal experience: I worked on a couple of games where changes that involved data files only could be rapidly read up to a live shard, which meant a simple bug could be quickly fixed. Changes which involved code still required a build. Sounds awesome right? Well, a good 50% of the time (probably hyperbolic) fixing a simple bug resulted in a larger, more serious bug occurring in a live environment. Yes, you're more agile (pardon the development methodology pun), but you're also more open to "bad stuff" due to rapid iteration.
At Paragon/NCsoft, we have a more methodical approach to iteration. This results in less game breaking/server destroying bugs, which results in more overall availability of the product. This also means that, due to our methodical process, the bugs that do make it to live, it happens, take longer to fix because we plan our process out weeks in advance. We still have to rapidly (within 24 hours response) iterate if there's an issue that's wrecking mass havoc on live servers, and adjust our schedules accordingly.
As anyone in software development will tell you, schedules are very, very important. If milestones get pushed, it has an effect on the entire studio, soup to nuts.
Keep in mind, I'm not an engineer...but I play one online.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Our hair hasn't been animated for months - when exactly is that bug going to be fixed?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We still have to rapidly (within 24 hours response) iterate if there's an issue that's wrecking mass havoc on live servers, and adjust our schedules accordingly.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Fprn!
Wait no. FPGG?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
....if you're going up the tentacle shaft, not down it - so if you do get stuck there, you just need to head back up it a short way and the window will appear.
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Just because it appears fixed on Beta does not mean it has been approved and checked at all levels, from Producer level down to QA. No business that wants to stay in business will jump over their quality/control and accountability structures just so something can get rolled out fast.. I suggest you look at the History of the Windows Vista release as an example of when a product is pushed out the door before it's ready.
Is it a shame that Staff and Beasts aren't available fsor Double XP? Yes it is. Is it annoying that the Dark fixes aren't ready and signed off on yet? Absolutely... But the flip side is.. More bugs are not introduced bvia a rush job.
I've noticed since Freedom theres been more of a push to go live with bugs and I suspect that's due to the game's new revenue dependence on the Paragon Market but all MMOs go through this.. if someone can't deal then they shouldn't be playing an MMO.
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