SSA #6 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **

Well, I come from a bit of a different background in that regard. I have wrote and continue to write a fair amount of fiction, and this year is my thirty-first as a tabletop RPG player and game master. On top of that, I went to university to study filmmaking in all of its aspects. Unfortunately, I was a generation too early to take full advantage of digital filmmaking, so I make up for it now with little clips and such I like putting up on Youtube. I only wish I was as prolific as Samuraiko.

So what this all ultimately informs my opinions about are pretty much the basics. The absolute first rule I learned about filmmaking is that what you put up on screen is going to be everything that the audience will see. If you're a particularly gifted person (say like Christopher Nolan or Alfred Hitchcock) you can play with those expectations and encourage the audience to think, but again you have to have the material for them to work with to begin with.

Often I'll watch a film or read a piece of work or in this case even play a game with one eye giving things a bit of a critical viewing. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. If the author of the piece is willing to come forward and not only accept the criticism and explain themselves, that to me is not only the mark of a strong writer, but a strong and honest person that's willing to re-examine their own work.

What I'm not going to do is become an apologist or a rationaliser of a piece of work. That's not my job as an 'audience member'. It shouldn't be because it's not my work to do so with. If however I do encounter something that either doesn't seem logical from what I know of the story, and it doesn't seem continuous and internally consistent, it's going to ring alarm bells. Again, it's not my job to make those things work, but I think it's handwaving to just trust in the writers beyond a certain point.

What I wrote before about suspension of disbelief holds for me with most of everything. One of my earliest memories where I applied it was when I watched The Phantom Menace with what I thought was a great villain in Darth Maul. Vicious, deadly, intelligent. And at the climax of the movie, he has young Obi-Wan at his mercy and toys with him. And then...for no reason I could see, he actively notices Obi-Wan calling his lightsaber to him and then watches (seemingly helplessly) as he vaults over his head and cuts him in half without so much as a raised weapon.

I was incredulous. How could this fantastic warrior and bad guy just...take it? My suspension of disbelief was shattered. The story seemingly dictated that all of Maul's previous actions didn't mean anything or have consequence in that one crucial moment.

And so, to my mind, that has been what's been and seemingly continues to occur in this story. I'm jarred out of the story by things I find illogical and discontinuous. Yes, I've been selective in what I consider continuous charactersisations of the characters, but again I feel I've had to because they've been so discontinuous. I can choose to look at these characters and take what I'd consider to be the worst possible viewpoint of them (and if that's the case, why am I interested in what happens to them at all) or I can take the most positive view I can manage. Yes, it's a form of rationalisation, but that's born out of necessity not preference.

So that's where I come from. I'm going to take things at face value and rightly so. If you're going to sell me a story, sell me a story. And with one chapter to go, it's leaving a lot to try and reconcile and explain, in my mind.



S.

Cool. Thanks for explaining that to me. I don't think we'll ever have a meeting of the minds on this, but at least I understand where you're coming from now.

No problem. I hope the next SSA raises the bar from where we are now because even with you disagreeing with me, you're picking out a lot of problems yourself in this story.



S.

I suspect that was part of his train of thought along with "I am an immortal and he's just a man.", "I'll make sure this is done right since this is personal." and "This will force Manticore to be less extreme."

I just hope that the next SSA is consistent within its internal lore.
At the end of one of the SSA, the remaining Phalanx members split up to assginments: Numina is supposed to help with Psyche. Since Numina has deep knowledge of Magic, why isn't she in the least alarmed that Psyche is deep within Oranbega for an unknown ritual? Weren't Citadel and Synaphse supposed to help out as well? Where are they? Oopsie, guess they forgot that their friend was marked as a target. :/

I have had fun running these but some of the arc seems built of Plotholeium...

Are we talking about the same Statesman who stands on a ship in IP sending 8 unknown heroes into deathtraps where they fight Statesmans equal, Lord Recluse and his army on Recluse's home turf?

Are we talking about the same Statesman who sent heroes to certain death in the Rikti War?

That's the problem with this story. The actions of the characters are not consistent with who they are supposed to be both in past actions and in what one would expect from the best Paragon has to offer. To buy this story means believing that many of the characters and possibly the readers own characters have been struck by the stupid ray.

Compare this to the final showdown in the Dark Knight which answers the same sorts of questions which have been asked of WWD#5.

I think you're ignoring some important factors.

And let me be clear where I'm coming from. I'm not saying that I accept the Statesman encounter and reject the Batman one. I'm just saying that I think a much higher standard is being applied to the SSAs than to the Batman fight and anything involving superheroes is going to come apart when faced with sufficient scrutiny. We come to the boards with the virtue of time, emotional distance, knowledge of OOC cut scenes, and awareness that we're playing an arc titled WHO WILL DIE?

So, what happens if we come at DKR looking at it as critically as WWD5?

"Superman would have seen that coming. He would have gone back in time with his Ouroboros portal and saved Batman's parents. If that didn't work, he would have waited for a couple weeks for his powers to regenerate, been sure to cut the power to the surrounding block (standing next to that light pole? Obvious trap!) and he wouldn't have gotten in range. He would have blasted the gun and the suit off of Batman from half a mile in the air and he certainly would have known better than to scan the area with X-Rays (Rookie mistake!), which activated those missiles that any hero with his 30 years of experience would have anticipated. He also would have heard and dealt with the Batmobile and Ollie long before they got on the field."

Superman is literally at the weakest he's ever been in his adult life, he might be the only active Superhero, but he's certainly not the only person on the payroll of the US Government capable of bringing down a single 50 year old man who is waiting in a single, open location. Batman might have had a code against killing, but by all accounts he seems to have violated it (the death of the Joker is why Superman is finally ordered to bring him in), but he certainly doesn't have a code against [i]fighting back.[i/]

Also, the worst killer in history? The Joker's an amateur.


Are you saying that Batman is not underhanded? You might characterize it another way, but out of all the comic book characters out there, Batman is the least likely to give you a fair fight.

What are Stateman's sources of information on Wade? Possibly an account from Blitz and Malaise after they were captured. Blitz calls him Wade at one point in the redside arc, so he knows his name. However, at the end of SSA 4, Numina says that Statesman will go after Wade once he learns he was behind, implying that they did not yet learn this from Blitz. We don't know what Statesman knows. The truth is that we don't know how Statesman gets from looking for Wade to finding him. His investigations would probably take him to the Rogue Isles and Wade has probably left clues pointing to where he could be found. And if he's leaving those clues, he might as well leave some that play down his true strength.

I count two (2) helicopters. That's an extremely small army. (My reading of the situation was that the army was just there to keep people away from the fight, and they only got involved when Ollie started something with them.)


I really don't think there's any support for the theory that anyone would have any reason to believe that Wade is anything greater than a jumped-up nobody. Sure, he was present at some momentous occasions, but that doesn't translate to personal power. He was hanging out with Blitz, who had access to nukes, but I doubt Statesman thought he took any with him when he left.

Statesman is one of the most powerful beings in the world. He can probably count on one hand the beings that he fears. I'm not even sure how much he knows about his own connection to Cimerora. It might have looked like some random mountaintop to him. Probably the ideal place to arrest Wade. No nukes, no hostages, just the two of them. It might have occurred to him that Wade that thought that he had something that would work against him, but not something that actually would. But I don't think we even need to go that far. Wade could have fled to where the encounter took place, left clues that he was there and just waited. The detractors say that he was goading Statesman into a confrontation, but I don't see any specific support for that. Far better to conceal his true strength and pretend to flee. It would make more sense and it would explain why Statesman didn't think he walking into a trap.

Yeah, I do think that the arcs have some serious problems, but I also think that some of the points raised against them have been inaccurate or unfair, so that's what I was trying to address with my posts. For all my time defending them, I still think they're deeply (though not terminally) flawed .

Wade has been stealing from the Midnighters. He may not have nukes but he does have artifacts (and we all know the Midnighters only keep party favor items around). We *KNOW* (yes, even blueside, shocking) he stole a new batch in #2.

The big question is does States know how Imperious went down? If he does, he's every bit the chump the writers turned him into.

I guess the reference was too obscure (and a little googling shows that it was), but "Jumped Up Nobody" is villain archetype from Mutants & Masterminds. Basically, an idiot with a powerful magical artifact.

Even I would have to agree with that.

Most stories have flaws but the problem is the level of these flaws. A reader will over look flaws until they reach a certain level. Thats why I compared them side by side so we can see that the obvious flaws in the showdown rank 10 in WWD#5 while they are a 1 in DKR

Lets put your objections side by side.

Based on what? What evidence is there to make Superman think Batman will try to KILL him?

Relationship. Which relationship suggests a Deathtrap.
Batman is Superman's best friend.
Wade is a Villain who has killed Statesman's daughter.


Who has a history and background likely to TRY to kill the Hero?
Batman through out the story is involved in dozens of confrontations many where his own life is at stake yet Batman avoids killing anyone. It is implied in the story, no need to look outside of it, that this is the way Batman has always been and Superman knows it.

The only death that Superman might think Batman committed is Jokers. Even there the known evidence is that The Joker was in the middle of killing hundreds of children, having just killed AT LEAST 16 cub scouts. Batman chases the murderer who is shooting at Batman and catches him, A struggle ensues where the Joker pulls a knife and stabs Batman and Batman breaks the Jokers neck. Does this sound like the sort of person who Superman fears will TRY to kill him?

Wade meanwhile has been involved in an attack on a peace conference, threatening Statesman's city with nuclear destruction, kidnapped Statesman's daughter and then butchering her.

Right off the bat there is no indication that Batman will try to kill Superman so no reason for superman to take any actions based on such. Statesman by contrast has every reason to assume Wade will try to kill him.

I never mentioned time travel since it tends to be a huge flaw in any universe it exists in. Unless it is part of the story being judged I ignore such criticism. In this case time travel is not shown as a possibility in either WWD or DKR. IF you want to debate this then within the Batman portion of the DC universe time travel is quite rare compared to the CoH universe so at best they both FAIL equally.

The reason is given in the panels next to the one where Superman challenges Batman. The media is reporting that because of Batman's vigilantism that there is no rioting in Gotham while rioting is exploding in every other city in the US. Past panels have shown that The President wants Batman taken in preferably in a splashy way so as to remove him as a symbol to others. The fact that this information is placed at the very point where the challenge is issued answers the question loud and clear. Furthermore within the rest of the book it is clear that the President, who is not necessarily all there and is playing to the media and Superman tends to follow his orders. So the answer is "Superman can't wait or else other cities may start to follow suit."

Notice how this point is answered by the artist and requires no guess work.

Now lets compare this to WWD when I ask a similar question "Why Statesman can't wait a few minutes for backup to arrive." There is no clear answer. We can guess that maybe he was feeling so broken up that he didn't think straight, but theres lots of counter evidence in the same panels (He was thinking straight enough to not want to kill Wade and to somehow track him down.) Worse still it makes Statesman look like an Emo nube.

The answers that applies to all of these questions except the "Ollie" one is "Because none of these are real threats to Superman."

All evidence says these are not a real threat to Superman. Batman says as much and the art shows the same. The missiles kick him around a bit and a tank shell knocks him back, then he picks up the taxi tank, Rips the door off and with not a scratch on him and says with a smirk "Isn't tonight a school night?" to young robin. The gun and suit manage to give him a nose bleed, but he handily rips those apart and while Batman gets a few good blows in it's nothing Superman can't handle. This is all shown by the art and dialogue. All evidence says that these things are not a threat to a Superhero who can survive a megaton nuclear explosion.

Notice there is no need to guess this. We see these answers in the story.

You might say that "Even if none of these are real threats to him why wouldn't Supes still use these tactics."

Once again the answers are in the story repeated over and over.

Superman is a boy scout. He lives by the classic ideals. He plays by the rules. Likewise it is implied in several places that this will be a media event, Olie says as much. The government wants to use this as an example. This would be like a runner for the US Olympic team challenging someone in a wheelchair to a race, then yanking the wheelchair away right as the race begins.

You also say that it is a noob move for Superman to use X-Ray vision to scan, but in the very same panel Batman implies that these are rare custom devices. Superman may never have encountered this tactic before. Even if he has you don't ditch one of your best detection systems just because the enemy might have a counter measure.

Just as important though he wants to talk to Batman. To reason with him. To show him that he should give up. He uses only as much force as is needed since there is NO EVIDENCE that there is a threat here.


OLIE

Olie is the only thing that might tip off Superman and it is a slight flaw that they don't explicitly state his abilities in DKR. However it is clear he used to be a super hero as Batman admits as much, and is still skilled and determined enough to take out a "nuclear powered Submarine and leave no trace." The range of a non superhero longbow is hundreds of yards and in a Super hero comic book that should be the least that he could accomplish. So the writers have setup a Super powered Robin hood. Now how does he get there.

The military has left a "hole in the cordon big enough for a tank to get through." and like wise the sewers are shown to be lightly covered. So there are at least two ways that the writers have put in front of the reader that Olie could sneak in through.

Even if one discounts those and thinks that Olie was hiding there all along, the writers have covered that. The military pilot says that Batman is jamming there sensors, and when Superman tries to use his X-Ray vision he gets kicked around by missile fire. You claim it is a noob move for him to even have tried to use Xray vision, so then he sure as heck won't keep trying. I would contend that he might try, but after the first set of missiles Kicks him around some he is unlikely to keep doing something that causes pain unless he has reason to think there is still something out there.

So we have a superhuman Robinhood with no evedince that the military or Superman knows he is in the area. We have Batman jamming non super human means of locating him, and giving a plausible reason for even Superman to not keep trying to find something he doesn't know exists.

To top it off, there is no evidence in the comic to suggest his X-Ray vision could locate and identify a skilled superhero Robin hood hiding hundreds or even a thousand yards away in a city. We could speculate that maybe this Xray vision could find him but then i could just as easily speculate that some common substance like lead might prevent such detection.

Yes the writing is bit weak here, but compared to WWD #5 it is flawless Shakespeare.


Superman wants his friend to surrender and be brought in alive. The story shows time and again that they can't capture Batman alive. Can you honestly say that Superman would risk letting government stooges with guns go in and try to apprehend his friend?

As I pointed out the death occurred under circumstances that even on the surface should not cause Superman to assume Batman had given up his code to kill. Every action since Jokers death, from him escaping officers using lethal force to his dealing with hundreds of rioters has shown that Batman still isn't killing, let alone has any intention or chance of killing Superman. For Superman all evidence says Batman will fight back and fail.

I meant to have "Worst Serial Killer" sorry for the confusion.



"out of all the comic book characters" No not even close.

You might be right and I won't debate the point if you meant to say "out of all the comic book HEROES in the DC UNIVERSE..."

I am saying that there are many lines Batman wont cross and ample evidence to support this, There are few if any lines Wade wont cross to obtain his goal. My point was to compare Wade and Bats and what extreme they would go to against there respective opponents. Wade would be willing to hide a Nuke to win. Batman never would. Wade would slaughter groups of people, Batman would not. The list is huge.




But theres the problem. You admit "We don't know". As i have just demonstrated the answers to the same questions in DKR are right there on the pages. No need to guess, let alone say "We don't know." and at least the writers of DKR are willing to tell you and let you decide if it makes sense.

Your own explanation points to the problem caused when a story leaves critical questions unanswered.The reader has to guess, then guess more, and weave a weird tapestry to try to cover all the errors each guess creates. You are starting to do that exact same thing.

You say "His investigations would probably take him to the Rogue Isles and Wade has probably left clues pointing to where he could be found."

You mean like the evidence we found? Like the clues we found detailing his plan to use a ritual to steal Statesmans powers and that it would take place at the temple? Like the Rularu we found? Are you sugesting Statesman found all this and could't see this was a trap? Or will you now try to reweave the tapestry that the worlds greatest hero with 80 years more experience fail to find and notice what us 5 year veteran heroes saw? How does Statesman, who has access at the snap of his fingers to intelligence sources, brainpower and detection devices both technological and magical that we can only dream of, fail to do what little old us can? Give me a break. His hide out was at a location that Wade and Malaise met at. If we can find this out why can't Statesman?

Can you answer these questions using the information given in the story?


We can keep playing "Maybe" and "What If" games all night long, but thats the point. WWD requires that game and that is what weakens it compared to DKR

Better count again. 3 in the first shot. 3 in another scene watching the fight and 2 more within a matter of seconds are seen engaging Oliver. Likewise 3 infantry men are standing on top of the tank, with who knows how many more nearby. If this what you see in just those scenes how many more are implied to be in the area. Yep its always possible that those 3 helicopters managed to be in every location and there were no others. It's possible that the only three infantry men in the entire area happened to be just where the tank was. Does this sound reasonable to you?


And theres the problem. You say "You don't think" and "I doubt" because it is so unclear and arguments can easily be made counter to all that.



"He can probably count "
"I'm not even sure how much he knows "
"It might have looked like "
"Probably the ideal place "
"It might have occurred "
"Wade could have fled to "

Notice how many "Might and Maybes" you need to use just to answer one point. DKR doesn't require 1/10th as many.

IS DKR perfect? No. But WWD is far beneath DKR quality.

Originally Posted by Cathulhu You also say that it is a noob move for Superman to use X-Ray vision to scan, but in the very same panel Batman implies that these are rare custom devices. Superman may never have encountered this tactic before.

Originally Posted by Cathulhu We have Batman jamming non super human means of locating him, and giving a plausible reason for even Superman to not keep trying to find something he doesn't know exists.

Originally Posted by Cathulhu IS DKR perfect? No. But WWD is far beneath DKR quality.