SSA #6 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **
By
15bribri15,
Posted on: 2012-02-21 05:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
So epistemological agnosticism becomes the primary hermeneutic of literary critical analysis. I see.
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Does that translate as 'Talking out of my rear end'?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So epistemological agnosticism becomes the primary hermeneutic of literary critical analysis. I see.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It specifically means the person making the assertion has made one that cannot be disproved. The notion that this is because its actually true as you imply is falsifiable.|
Originally Posted by Venture
No, it just means the statement isn't a scientific one. The statement could be an axiom, or a tautology, or a theorem derived through valid rules of inference, etc. This isn't a discussion about science; falsifiability is not a useful metric.
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More specifically, since there exists no counter-example to a statement that is falsifiable, individual supporting examples cannot be given significant weight.
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You know, that's who I thought you might mean, but I really don't see it. Or is it because she's a red headed psychic?|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Jean Grey?
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She was team psychic in the use of Telepathy and Telekinesis. If that's all it takes to make one a copy of a character, there's a lot of copies of Jean Grey out there.
Manti I see as a copy of Batman. Background seems a lot of like, they're both natural origin's taking on enemies way out of their league, from billionair backgrounds with murdered parents.
I have no problems with characters that seem to be copies of established superheroes/villains. One of my favorite comics started out that way (Cyberforce was totally that way at first...then imo it evolved into it's own).
I am hoping for better SSA's in the future, but this one is feeling a bit more like (as I stated) get this change up made to happen. So they're not making it OMG AWESOME, but more LET'S GET IT DONE WITH!
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I hate to break it to you but god moding Mary Sue is much older than tvtropes and tvtropes is not a list of things that can't be used in an argument.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
Take a drink.
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Darrin Sue, err, Wade's only mistake, if it can be called that, his plans did not fail in the slightest because of it as the PC is entirely non-consequential or orthogonal, is not starting with his strongest assassin.
Wade CANNOT be stopped by the PC in #2. Here at least he should have been stoppable.
Wade's plans CANNOT and COULD NOT be stopped by the PC in #3 (I see dead people).
Wade's plans in #4 CANNOT and COULD NOT be stopped by the PC.
Wade's plans in #5 CANNOT and COULD NOT be stopped by the PC. (See #3)
#6? They CANNOT and COULD NOT be stopped. Hmm, most powerful non-explody psychic in the world, why don't you come with me to deal with someone that has nothing to do with Sister Pslody way over there on that other map.
They don't even give the illusion of being stoppable. We're just along so they have someone to pin the body count on in the inevitable march of herofail.
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I don't know where you're getting this from. My position hasn't changed.| I suppose that's progress. You've been clinging to the claim that Wade hasn't made any mistakes for a long time, and it's heartening to see you move on admitting he hasn't made any real mistakes. |
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| Is this some kind of forum game of which I am unaware? Am I supposed to take a drink every time an entry from tvtropes is misused? |
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| That's certainly one possible explanation, but you've got a tall burden to clear before you can say that it's the only one that matters. |
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| From a meta perspective, it provides foreshadowing. From a game perspective, it's what allows the Midnighters to learn of Wade's involvement: |
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| Clearly you don't believe the SSAs compare favorably to your own work |
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| Even the very best comic book stories fail by the standards being applied to these arcs. |
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It specifically means the person making the assertion has made one that cannot be disproved. The notion that this is because its actually true as you imply is falsifiable. More specifically, since there exists no counter-example to a statement that is falsifiable, individual supporting examples cannot be given significant weight. |
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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Originally Posted by Venture
Falsifiability is a principle from philosophy of science used to evaluate scientific hypotheses. It has no applicability to literary criticism. Arguing over whether (e.g.) the statement "in Shakespeare's Hamlet the titular character feigns madness to deceive his uncle" is falsifiable is gibberish. Arguing that statements must be falsifiable to have validity is the essence of logical positivism, a school of philosophy that is Deader Than Disco.
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Falsifiability is a word, a word that means "cannot be proven false by example." Its applicable to any discussion that requires a way of saying "cannot be proven false by example."
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I suppose my question is whether the presence of the character really makes any difference in the grand scheme of things.
Hero 1: Sure. Not that I think the Lost were all going to go on a superspeeding rampage, but without us, Synapse is probably toast.
Hero 2: Ehhh... We got the Skull back, No big deal.
Hero 3: No. It's clear that Wade already has Blitz well under control, so the odds of him allowing Marshall Crackpot to shoot off his missiles if we're not there is pretty low. Blitz was also clearly expendable, so capturing him is no achievement either.
Hero 4: Nope. Seemed to at first, though the end of arc scene makes it clear that everything is still going according to plan. We're a nuisance, nothing more.
Hero 5: Definitely not. We're part of the audience from start to finish.
Hero 6: Actually, we succeeded in making things WORSE. Without us, does Manticore ever discover the ritual/trap? If Psyche dies peacefully at home, surrounded by friends and family, Wade gets nothing out of it. With our help, he has a new powerset to play with. Yay!
I've never had the feeling that the enemy has had to change his plans or even been seriously inconvenienced by the presence of my character. My contacts keep telling me Wade is scared of me. I can't imagine why. Though he hasn't succeeded in beating me down, I've only grown more and more ineffective as we've progressed. No matter how many traps he lays, there's never the slightest bit of caution or concern that maybe he's still a step ahead as I charge headlong into the next one and let the collateral damage pile up as it may.
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It is a philosophical position with connotations that can't be summed up in six words, your statement is a declaration, not an argument, and I had no idea who that was a picture of until I used Goggles and even now I have no idea what the reference is supposed to mean.
| Falsifiability is a word, a word that means "cannot be proven false by example." Its applicable to any discussion that requires a way of saying "cannot be proven false by example." |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Here: http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Rama_Kandra|
Originally Posted by Venture
I had no idea who that was a picture of until I used Goggles and even now I have no idea what the reference is supposed to mean.
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"Rama Kandra, is a program created by the Matrix. Rama can be seen leaving as Neo goes to meet the Merovingian. He and his wife Kamala created their daughter program Sati and 'love' her. He meets Neo at Mobil Avenue where Neo is surprised to hear Rama speak of love as he believes it is a human emotion. He made a deal with the Merovingian so his daughter could be free to live in the Matrix."
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AWESOME. You Sir win quote of the day!
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Does that translate as 'Talking out of my rear end'?
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
In general, I've liked WWD. I know that isn't worth much but thought I'd throw that in. I just keep in mind that it is mainly a villain arc that had a hero-side tacked on to it so they would have something to do.
But even from the hero-side, I've found plenty of roleplay fodder out of this series and that's pretty much all I require to make it fun.
What I absolutely do not want to happen is for Paragon Studios to throw in the towl and call the SSA's a waste of time and effort because obviously no one appreciates them. I for one do appreciate them and I'm sure I'm not alone.
It could also be argued that if you were not present things could be much much worse. Syanapse, Numina, and Manticore could all be casualities if you had not been present to prevent as such. The Midnighter Club might have been overrun, put your brakes on before you argue not so, Darren Wade could have used it as an opportunity to reap even more rewards. I feel he stalled because there was a legitamate hero present.
True, some portions of the arc are preset, but anyone who has played any decent roleplaying game knows the action sometimes takes a life all its own (cutscenes.) I have enjoyed the story as it unfolds and want to see more signature story arcs in the future.
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It could also be argued that if you were not present things could be much better. If things were different they wouldn't be the same.</berra>
| It could also be argued that if you were not present things could be much much worse. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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You must have played a different SSA. Wade gets what he wants when he wants it. Wade got Synapse when he wanted. Wade got the skull (and other things) when he wanted. Miss Liberty is executed on command. States drops right when he was supposed to. SP, we probably hastened her along.
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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
I feel he stalled because there was a legitamate hero present.
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While the individual phrases may have existed , I find it hard to believe that there were arguments on the internet consisting of basically nothing of the Trope names ("There is a very fine line between a Xanatos Gambit and a Villain Sue, and Darren Wade has super-leaped across it") prior to TV Tropes.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
I hate to break it to you but god moding Mary Sue is much older than tvtropes.
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In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
I suppose that's progress. You've been clinging to the claim that Wade hasn't made any mistakes for a long time, and it's heartening to see you move on admitting he hasn't made any real mistakes.
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Originally Posted by Venture
I don't know where you're getting this from. My position hasn't changed.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Wade has not made a single misstep the whole way.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Wade hasn't made any real mistakes.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Did the Midnighters actually need to see the artifact stealing known Rularuu groupie to figure out he might have something to do with the Rularuu groupies stealing their artifacts?
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Originally Posted by Venture
I can think of a fair number of comic stories that were better than this.
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Originally Posted by Venture
As for your examples, Batman defeating a weakened Superman is not something I would give a writer a hard time over, and Ozymandias' plan was if anything uncovered too easily (and didn't work in the end in any case).
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And I just opened my copy of Watchmen. Ozymandias' gambit is going "exactly as planned" right up until the 27th page of the final issue. It actually probably is ultimately successful, because Rorschach mails the journal before he goes to Antarctica and gets the final pieces to the puzzle.
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
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You post that and then use a short description of http://www.tvtropes.org as if "TV Tropes" had some agreed upon meaning that allowed expression of the concept in a limited and concise form. http://www.tvtropes.org itself being a representation of a group of IP addresses. yada yada yada
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
While the individual phrases may have existed , I find it hard to believe that there were arguments on the internet consisting of basically nothing of the Trope names ("There is a very fine line between a Xanatos Gambit and a Villain Sue, and Darren Wade has super-leaped across it") prior to TV Tropes.
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At this point in the thread, I can't post "I don't know what you mean" without it looking like some internet smart guy rhetorical trick, but I really don't know what you mean.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
You post that and then use a short description of http://www.tvtropes.org as if "TV Tropes" had some agreed upon meaning that allowed expression of the concept in a limited and concise form. http://www.tvtropes.org itself being a representation of a group of IP addresses. yada yada yada
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In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
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TV Tropes is merely a glossary. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
At this point in the thread, I can't post "I don't know what you mean" without it looking like some internet smart guy rhetorical trick, but I really don't know what you mean.
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Mary Sue arguments have been going on since MUDs have been around.
You are saying that arguments that are Mary Sue arguments made by using the definition of Mary Sue are different from arguments using Mary Sue to represent the definition.
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Actually I was just saying that there a lot of arguments in this thread consisting of nothing but terms codified by TV Tropes.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
TV Tropes is merely a glossary.
Mary Sue arguments have been going on since MUDs have been around. You are saying that arguments that are Mary Sue arguments made by using the definition of Mary Sue are different from arguments using Mary Sue to represent the definition. |
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
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Eh, the red hair kind of made it easy to guess the expy suggestion.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
You know, that's who I thought you might mean, but I really don't see it. Or is it because she's a red headed psychic?
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Actually Dark Knight does not fall into those same traps.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
I actually do have a hard time believing that if only because what Superman did was so very similar to the confrontation for which you have excoriated Statesman.
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Simply put.
In Dark Knight Superman is the only one who can do the mission (Bring a friend to justice alive), has little reason to suspect a death trap (Friend has code against killing) and no evidence that the showdown will result in anything worse then a nose bleed no matter what scans or investigations are done.
By comparison Statesman is not the only one who can bring Wade to justice. In fact Statesman should know that since this is personal he is a bad choice to attempt such. He has every reason to suspect a death trap aimed specifically at him, and yet he still brings no backup what so ever.
Heres a more detailed breakdown of the above.
The enemy and reason for going in.
In DK Superman goes into the showdown to try to talk to and take in alive one of his best friends Batman. He is probably the only person who can do so. Likewise the enemy has a code against and avoided killing. The only exception might be the joker but even if Supes believes Batman killed him he can also see that the Joker is the worst killer in history and the killing took place only after an extraordinary circumstances.
By comparison Statesman goes after a villain who he knows is underhanded, has killed daughter, has Allies, access to nuclear weapons and is not above kidnapping family and friends and holding them hostage. This is the sort of scum that is willing to do anything and may well have hostages, death traps, innocent bystanders, and who knows what else at his disposal. His goal is to talk to such scum and take him in alive because killing scum is bad.
Backup.
In Dark Knight it is clear that there are no Supers left to back up Superman. He does how ever bring in literally a small army as backup just in case things go real bad, cant be much more prepared then that.
Statesman brings in nobody as backup even though Wade has shown every indication that he is not above using hostages, nuclear weapons and forced choice plots (Arrest me or save the hostage) where a bit of backup would help. Likewise Statesman having a friend along to talk him out of killing Wade if he says the wrong thing would be good. He apparently fails to bring anybody because he's emo and incompetent.
Obviouse Trap?
Batman lures Supes to ground which is symbolic to Batman but has no magical connection. Researching and scanning the area using even the best methods reveals nothing that will do more then give supes a nose bleed. The trap is in the form of another person who is some distance from the fight, and could initially been miles away and snuck in through the hole big enough to drive a tank through. Even with all this it is still shown that Supes is about to catch wind of the plot and Bats has to take action to distract him for 5 more seconds.
Wade lures Statesman to ground that is magical and symbolic to Statesman. A first year mage would know this is dangerous and a scan of the area would reveal potent magical threats.
Statesman: "This mission is a deathtrap, and if I send anyone else in my place I will be committing murder."
Would that line of dialogue have changed the situation? Probably.
With regards to the tvtropes discussion above...
Tropes are not cliches. They are not meant to be avoided, but understanding them is a good part of building a better story.
That being said, I'm not even going to ATTEMPT to defend the writing. I can only imagine the frustration of writing stories when you can't possibly remember everything that every character can do, or wouldn't do, or couldn't do, or could do if...
I mean really you kinda have to cut them some slack, this is probably as close to impossible as you can get.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
Maybe some of the Astro City stories would qualify, but I consider those the very best comic stories out there, and not being as good as Astro City is hardly a critical failure in my book.
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.