Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 2/14/12
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-02-14 10:50 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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First, you asked what the laws were. Second, I find it disturbing that someone who admits to having worked in the gaming industry refers to "the law" as "pseudo rules." Third, a box of Cracker Jacks still doesn't have hotline numbers printed on it after a hundred years, so "always" clearly also requires an "eventually" measured in millenia. Fourth, I don't think anyone was snickering at your previous post, although rather ironically some are probably doing so with this one.
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Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Until someone actually -has- the merit to MAKE a legal foundation. If you give them an inch, they will take a foot. There is no, "should have been familiar" here. I know what I'm talking about, addictive behavior will be involved. Iv'e seen this in grown ups, Iv'e seen this in children. This isn't speculation it's a very real thing. Like I said, I'm biased. I'm quite biased. I hope those laws serve their purpose to protect Paragon Studios and its employees. I hope some poor unfortunate mother doesn't find out one day that her kids managed to blow the rent for those cards. I hope something like THAT doesn't get spread all over the internet. That wouldn't look too good, would it? "Paragon Studios enabled a form of digital pseudo gambling to ruin someones life." I hope it doesn't begin to involve lawyers and 1800-gamblingproblem hotline disclaimers. I hope it doesn't come around to bite anyone in the ***. I hope it doesn't but I know it will. It always DOES. You can quote all the pseudo rules you want to defend this gambling by proxy. Go right ahead. You can bash me all you want for my opinions and hide behind whatever smiles, smirks and snickering you want. Go right ahead. doesn't bother Hassenpheffer. not.one.bit. I know addictive behavior. I know what it can do, I know the lengths it will go through for a handlepull, or a card roll.
My bottom line: Be very careful Paragon Studios. |
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If we were talking about cracker jacks, then I wouldn't be bothered.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
First, you asked what the laws were. Second, I find it disturbing that someone who admits to having worked in the gaming industry refers to "the law" as "pseudo rules." Third, a box of Cracker Jacks still doesn't have hotline numbers printed on it after a hundred years, so "always" clearly also requires an "eventually" measured in millenia. Fourth, I don't think anyone was snickering at your previous post, although rather ironically some are probably doing so with this one.
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If we were talking about a mechanic that very much has the potential to arouse addictive behavior, well... you get the idea.
Snicker away.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Another thing with the potential to arouse addictive behavior:|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
If we were talking about cracker jacks, then I wouldn't be bothered.
If we were talking about a mechanic that very much has the potential to arouse addictive behavior, well... you get the idea. Snicker away. |
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An MMO, or even the internet itself, is addictive by nature. Kinda funny that you're worried about adding an addictive element to something that's already addictive without it.|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
If we were talking about cracker jacks, then I wouldn't be bothered.
If we were talking about a mechanic that very much has the potential to arouse addictive behavior, well... you get the idea. Snicker away. |
There are limits that can be placed on accounts to keep Lil' Jimmy from spending the rent money on Paragon Market purchases. Otherwise, let adults be adults. If they want to spend their money buying Super Packs, it's their decision. The information about them is out in the open so they can be informed as much as they want to be. They are leagues away from a casino, where the average person has no idea how much of an advantage the House really has, and why casinos are set up the way they are.
Adding my results to the mix: Bought a 12 pack. Got the entire costume set, plus 6 or 7 ATOs, and a crapton of merits. Points well spent for me.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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Alrighty, I was going to stay out of this as I'd had my say, and told myself I wasn;t going to get into this aspect of the issue.|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Until someone actually -has- the merit to MAKE a legal foundation. (snip)
My bottom line: Be very careful Paragon Studios. |
But here we go...
Here's the thing, Hass:
If you think Paragon is violating the laws in your area, it's your duty as a citizen (as I see it) to open a complaint. Seriously.
If you think you're witnessing illegal behavior, report it. Whatever agency tackles interstate/international crime in your area - make a call and check your results.
I suspect Paragon's legal team knows the law better than me and - hard as it may be to believe - better than you, too.
If you think the behavior is immoral but not illegal, than you presumably will be running, not walking, away from the company and it's services, yes? This will be the last day we'll see you posting, as you refuse to be associated with Paragon, even as a customer?
I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.
I'm calling your bluff - because bluff it is - you know it and I know it.
It's Put Up or Shut Up time.
(To the Mods/Devs/etc... if this post is out of line, I apologize and will willingly accept whatever ramifications result.)
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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Extending that reductive logic, virtually every activity that stimulates our brains' reward center is "addictive".|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
An MMO, or even the internet itself, is addictive by nature. Kinda funny that you're worried about adding an addictive element to something that's already addictive without it.
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There's a spectrum of addictive risk that must take into account both the individual's propensities and the system's enticements (the reward is surprisingly less relevant just as long as there's that dopamine rush). While Paragon Studios doesn't really have any control over the latter besides banning players who have fallen into a full-blown addiction spiral like something out of Dostoyevsky, they certainly make the final decision over how their game is marketed and sold. In this case, they've added a game of chance on top of the MMO, which they're marketing as something fun to play in itself, complete with virtual "cards" in shiny, bright colors.
Some people enjoy taking risks, and some people enjoy paying extra for rarities. The Super Pack zeroes in on the overlap of those two groups and monetizes the hell out of their predilections. Paragon Studios has tweaked the odds and results so that it's less exploitative than those in some game studios. Nevertheless, it's on their end of the spectrum in the broad perspective, something the old CoH never was.
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Oh, bravo. Really, I'm heartbroken. |
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Well, you've just demonstrated the worth of your opinion with that last bit. Thanks, I won't sweat it anymore.
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You DO understand that's a specific reply to a specific post from certain someone that throws smilies into everything and seems to INSIST on inserting herself into every third post in a thread, right? Not directed to you in any way, shape or form? Or did that go over your head?
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It used to exploit people who liked to dress up non-existent dolls in non-existent clothes and charge them rent to play with them. Still does now. Is this a better form of exploitation?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
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By the devs own admission they knew this game was addictive in the literal sense: they were specifically proud of this game's addictive nature, also referred to as its subscriber retention ratio. Long before City of Heroes Freedom launched, the devs knew that anything they could do to keep a player engaged for a year radically increased the odds they would then keep that player indefinitely. And "free" costumes, power customization, even the nature of replayability are all designed to keep people playing until they cross the threshold of making a critical emotional investment in the game. Many never do, but the game is designed to keep the ones that do.
It is this very theory of addictability that runs *counter* to most free to play games, which are predicated on the presumption that they will not retain players for long, so the goal is to convert as many of them into temporary paying customers as rapidly as possible.
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Irrelevant, because this doesn't fit the LEGAL DEFINITION of gambling - that being where money is staked and money is the prize ( Or anything that can be directly exchanged for money such as poker chips ). Otherwise, M:tG cards would be illegal.
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Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Thing is...Minors play this game...
What are the laws about gambling involving minors? |
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Did I say it was directed at me? But anyone who dismisses the opinion of someone who happens to be taking Paragon's side as an "apologist" without even actually bothering to refute their argument isn't worth listening to.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Oh, bravo. Really, I'm heartbroken.
You DO understand that's a specific reply to a specific post from certain someone that throws smilies into everything and seems to INSIST on inserting herself into every third post in a thread, right? Not directed to you in any way, shape or form? Or did that go over your head? |
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As the mechanics of those systems are entirely different from the Super Packs, the term "exploitation" can be employed only as loosely as some are arguing about "addiction" or "gambling".
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It used to exploit people who liked to dress up non-existent dolls in non-existent clothes and charge them rent to play with them. Still does now. Is this a better form of exploitation?
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Are you saying that when you use the word "exploitation" gambling is a normal requirement? Or are you saying that exploitation involving gambling is a completely separate category of exploitation for which the normal context of exploitation is insufficient?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
As the mechanics of those systems are entirely different from the Super Packs, the term "exploitation" can be employed only as loosely as some are arguing about "addiction" or "gambling".
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Or are you saying that when you talk about any topic, you are the only person allowed to use analogies.
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I want to see them put a new powerset in a superpack as the only way to get it. If people are this obsessed and upset with just one exclusive costume, imagine that thread! Just kidding although wouldn't be 100% shocked to see it happen one day, at least on an "advance preview" type of deal before it goes on sale the regular way. Hopefully they'll do that with this costume.
Honestly I look at it like Arcanaville does. If people with money to throw around want to buy a ton of packs all the better to support and pump money into the game. Think of it as a voluntary tax.
Personally, I bought one set of 24 packs and I'm probably done except for the occasional extra points or tier 9 reward tokens. At least for this set of cards! I got some neat stuff and it was mildly amusing, no more, no less. Guess I just don't have an addictive personality 
I'm really sad I got to miss the Ustream. i wanted to see if Zwill or someone would give some more info on this, and at least mention that they've listened to the concerns, especially in this thread. Was anything spoken about it?(and did anyone raise the concerns in the thread here?)
As it stands NCSoft is currently losing monies I would otherwise have given them happily
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You can go to utream.com and watch the last coffee talk. The only info I caught about superpacks during that broadcast was that there would be anther superpack .
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Makes me wonder how many play or played Magic the Gathering or Pokemon or any CCG, and are complaining about this.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
I'm guessing the people who don't like these things also don't like, or never collected trading cards, because that's the closest, most obvious analog I can think of to these superpacks.
As someone who spent too much of his allowance as a kid on Wacky Packages, and Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back trading cards, and too much of his income as an adult on Buffy, and Star Wars Galaxy trading cards, I think these are a fun idea. I'll probably buy a 24 pack on each of my accounts and be done with it. Does anyone know what the actual odds of any given item are? In the first pack I opened, I got 1 common, 3 uncommon and 1 very rare item. |
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That was already answered by several players, and having past experience with those games (no pokemon personally, but I have past experience with M:tG and other CCGs) was the reason why many players didn't want to see these packs on this game.
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Originally Posted by LordTenma
Makes me wonder how many play or played Magic the Gathering or Pokemon or any CCG, and are complaining about this.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I disagree, after 20+ years dealing with the court system I have seen many crazy things. I think having the right situation arise I can see someone making a claim. Further gambling definition varies from state to state. Also remember the game company does not have to create a monetary value for these items an outside source like a farming website can. All you need is a establish known value. |
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Irrelevant, because this doesn't fit the LEGAL DEFINITION of gambling - that being where money is staked and money is the prize ( Or anything that can be directly exchanged for money such as poker chips ). Otherwise, M:tG cards would be illegal.
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Personally after reading how so many people were successful with 24 super pack and I picked up a 24 and a 12 for a total of 36 rolls and got squat, I am a bit tempted to pay for more points thinking that this time around I might get better rolls. So there is a gambling taint to these cards.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Who is bluffing? and about what? and whats with this "get out of the game" talk? and yeah, you are out of line, by telling me to shut up. I'm trying to protect a thing I care about <this game, this company> because I don't want anyone getting into trouble. |
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
If you think the behavior is immoral but not illegal, than you presumably will be running, not walking, away from the company and it's services, yes? This will be the last day we'll see you posting, as you refuse to be associated with Paragon, even as a customer?
I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. I'm calling your bluff - because bluff it is - you know it and I know it. It's Put Up or Shut Up time. (To the Mods/Devs/etc... if this post is out of line, I apologize and will willingly accept whatever ramifications result.) |
but anyways...
If the devs -really- want to keep me out of...their hare...they can do so very easily...
... by keeping me busy with new base development goodies
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Ok, I'll explain this to you.|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Who is bluffing? and about what? and whats with this "get out of the game" talk? and yeah, you are out of line, by telling me to shut up. I'm trying to protect a thing I care about <this game, this company> because I don't want anyone getting into trouble.
but anyways... If the devs -really- want to keep me out of...their hare...they can do so very easily... ... by keeping me busy with new base development goodies |
You've made several posts questioning the legality of the Super Pack system.
I have suggested - in about the strongest terms I could - that if you actually think something is illegal, you should file a criminal complaint. (Do you disagree?)
If, on the other hand, you don't actually think it's illegal, you should stop broadly hinting that you think it is, as it makes you look dishonest - and I don't think you are. I hope not anyway.
I left you the out that you were bluffing - that is, deliberately engaging in hyperbole to make a point. So, here's the question:
Which is it?
(In terms of being out-of-line, I wasn't talking to you, but the Devs. I was afraid that the post might have been against forum rules.)
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
I also tend to agree with Tetsuko.
If you really believe these Super Packs to be something illegal then fine. So then what? Personnaly i think you are wrong but even if you were right, i do not see why you keep bringing this in that thread. I don't know. Just don't buy the pack. Call the police or whatever and test your theory.
Really, i do not see where you want to go with this. The Superpacks are legal? Yes, then what? Or the Superpacks are not legal? Yes, then what? What are you really trying to tell us?
Now if it can reassure you a little, i am willing to bet with you that the CoH attorneys have examined thoroughly the whole thing before letting the marketing team put the packs on sale.
I think one can disagree with the Superpacks for whatever reason but questioning their legality? Now that goes a bit over the top IMHO. Super packs are nothing revolutionnary, such things have been around in many games and forms for years and i really doubt that they are illegal. And i doubt it can be proven that they are in that thread.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
at first i was against the superpack idea, but then i used my brain...
if we take the 24 pack, it s about the price of the old booster pack... we have in thse 24 pack:
1 complete costume set
many temp power
many booster
many reward merits (about 500M if you sell the merit bought recipes)
many ato (about 400M inf if you sell them)
(and inspi... well... i won't use them, but you have them)
hum... any past booster gave this whole thing before?
if the costume was in tier 9 vip, it would have cost 3 points, so 3 subs or 3 * 1200 point... well 2 time more money. NCS could sell it at 800 point in the market... but hey... all those things for 600 more points?
well I for one am sorry they ever got into this kind of selling.they are giving (right or wrong) the impression that all they want to do is seperate us from our money in our wallets. limited time vanity items,over priced items,pandering to the "gambling" urge.
all designed to get us to in addition to a monthly fee, to reach for our credit cards and send money to them.
now that we have the first animial travel power, how long before they flood the market with varations? panther travel power, wolf travel power, XXXXX travel power. each to get us to spend buy PP to purchase.
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
Y'know what I find amazing - several people who bought only 12 packs got the entire costume set, while other people who bought 36 or more packs got "squat." Now I don't know what "squat" is defined as, but it's clear to me from the responses in this thread, that the fewer packs you buy the more likely you are to get everything you want.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to file a lawsuit against Topps because I didn't get a George Lucas autographed trading card in that pack of cards I bought six years ago.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
I find more value in P.E.D. these days...withdrawing, not depositing
edit: I'm still waiting for my mustache twirling pics
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.