Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 2/14/12

I think Arcanaville's main idea here was that for every "angered player" out there there's going to be another player who's going to buy dozens or even hundreds of packs. I suspect very few of the "angered players" are actually going to quit playing entirely over this issue, and the few who do will eventually be replaced or mitigated by the revenue generated by the Super Packs.

Couple this to the fact that just about everyone is managing to get the entire Elemental Costume set parts within the first 10-12 packs means that in the long run almost no one will stay "bothered" by this.

And my point is that making the EO pieces available to purchase seperately results in even fewer angered players. I've not yet been convinced that more angered players is a better plan than fewer ones.

When you phrase it like that, and I think about the store implementation, it suddenly seems really plausible.

I have no idea whether the price on those is reasonable. I dislike gambles in general, so I'm not buying super packs, but all that means is that I haven't got a reasonable basis for an opinion as to what price would be reasonable.

Two separate questions:

1. Effect of originally making the EO pieces available separately: Fewer angry players, but a lot of people not buying super packs who might have otherwise.
2. Effect of now, after the fact, making the EO pieces available separately: Tons of angry players who bought super packs only in order to get those pieces.

Exactly! When people evaluate outcomes, they don't value probability linearly; something 95% likely is not worth 95% as much as something 100% certain. (You can debate whether it's rational or not, but it doesn't matter; this is how humans are.)

If there existed an unambiguous N such that, for N super packs, I would be certain to have the whole costume set, then that would be a purchase I could evaluate and decide whether or not I liked the price. As is... Nope.

But both of these make the assumption that the Super Packs are only worthwhile for the EO costume pieces, in essence. Let me see if I can break down my thinking here:

If we make the assumption that the seperate EO pieces would be substantially more expensive than their breakpoint in getting them through Super Packs, then either:
1) Many people still buy the Super Packs, while a few spend more money on the EO pieces (presumably good)
2) Many people spend more on the EO pieces while abandoning the Super Packs (still good)

If we make the assumption that the EO pieces would be offered at or below their Super Pack likely cost, then either:
1) Many people still buy the Super Packs because they like the other things offered, and/or the mechanics of the system (still good)
2) The Super Packs are abandoned because all people were really buying them for was the EO pieces. If this is the case, then it has been demonstrated that people didn't really like the Super Packs, but were 'holding their noses' and using an unpopular system anyway. Knowing this is good.

I personally suspect that Super Packs would be, and would remain, popular, even without having numerous exclusive pieces. If not, than it's not the Super Packs themselves that are a success, just the costume pieces.

That's because you haven't bothered to look at it through Dev-tinted glasses.

From their point of view dealing with a relatively small up-tick in short-term player angst is worth the money they are making from this. They're looking at the big picture here - they honestly don't care that much about individual players. I know that sounds brutally harsh but it's completely realistic and logical from their point of view.

Exclusivity of the costume items in the Super Packs is the very quality that makes them good sellers.
It may be counter-intuitive to some, but it is what it is. *shrugs*

Exactly.

I bought 7 packs and almost completed the costume set. The only 2 pieces I'm missing are the shoulders and the back piece. TBH I got the rest of the costume bits in the first 5 packs, the last 2 were just merits and temp powers, oh, and 1 ATO. Guess I just got lucky.

I don't want to misrepresent your position here, so let me see if I understand:

You're arguing that the Super Packs would not be popular if there was some way - even a (generally) more expensive but certain - way of getting the EO pieces?
Am I getting the thrust of your argument?

Well, at the very least, that there's a significant pool of people to whom that's the only interesting part.

Everything else they produce is just inf to me. I don't need inf. The costume pieces are the only part of this I might spend real money on.

Except that it might be more complicated; for instance, it might be that the total dollar cost of buying the packs is higher, but that for many users, the EO pieces are not the sole thing of value, while other users care more about them. Different users have different values.

It might be, but...

There are clearly people who bought super packs only because they wanted the costume pieces. If those people are then offered a different way to get those pieces, they might well be upset because they were induced to buy a thing they didn't want as part of a thing they did want. Especially if some of them had to buy a lot of packs to get the items, which will have happened.

As long as there's no guarantee of success, some people will spend more on the super packs than it would have cost to get things separately, and if the separate option later becomes available, those people will be infuriated.

Having both options up front might well have worked, but it would have taken away one of the big draws super packs were offering. Part of the point of that draw is that a lot of people wouldn't buy super packs without some kind of exclusive, but once they've bought a couple they may decide it's fun and buy more. It's an inducement.

I think this is an obvious undercurrent. Despite the fact that players are getting "value" with super packs, many players are paying for more than they want. This is obvious in the case of those chasing the wolf summon. It is from this point of view that the arguments that this sort of marketing is "abusive" stem.

I agree, to a certain extent.
In my mind, an announcement in a week or two that there would be alternate methods available, due to player requests, is 'up front' enough for me.

I'm not implying anything of the sort with that statement. The statement is clear: No one, not even the developers, can say with certainty how much the Elemental Order costume set actually costs. The same goes for the Black Wolf pet.

However deceiving the customer and preying on psychological habits of the customer are two completely different things.

The developers know that players would pay for the costume set, but that wouldn't satisfy the company's need for on-going sales. The developers know that players would pay for the ATOs, but again that wouldn't satisfy the company's need for on-going sales.

The developers know that the "potions" or consumables are not very popular in this game, and they know that it is a steady revenue stream in other games. So they are combining unpopular products with a random chance to get the popular (but one-off) products in hopes to make a continuous revenue stream. It is self-serving, and it is presented in a similar fashion to other known addicting model(s): Collectible Card Games and, after a fashion, slot machines.

That is, to put it bluntly, predatory.

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I think given a choice most players and consumers would want to pay nothing for everything.

Could you clarify whether you think both CCGs and slot machines are predatory, or just one, or what?

I guess the reason I have a hard time buying this is simply that the entire MMO industry is built around patterns known to be addictive, such as random drops. Like, say, the way you get recipes occasionally and sometimes they're really valuable. That's addictive.

I think of "predatory" in the sense of predatory business practices, where the nature of the thing implies exploiting a weakness or vulnerability and misleading people. Predatory lending typically involves lying to people about the deals they're being offered, or at the very least misleading them.

I don't feel predated on here. They've got something on offer. I could get it but don't currently really want to.

Do other glowy costume parts (like the imperial defense gloves and boots) glow for you? If not, it's a rendering issue.

Sadly with 36 packs hardly got squat from the elemental costume set, I got face, gun, back, legs. I do have about 22 revive self and 26 revive others though. I picked up ATO for AT's I don't even have. And even with the ATO I didn't even get close to a full set. I got 3 from tanker set being the most.

If they just skewed the rolls towards the players account at least it would have been a more fun and less disappointing.

It would have been nice if they explained what the heck this stuff was even instead of having to scour the forums to understand this stuff in the slightest. On top even forums posters honestly don't have a clue how these ATO work.

I think both CCGs and slot machines are predatory in nature.

These packs are more obvious and directly cost more money than a base subscription. Other random drops in the game don't cost money, though they do cost time.

Being predatory doesn't necessarily involve misleading people. However these packs do exploit some player's weakness (psychological "thrill" of opening surprizes) or vulnerabilities (trying to fit in when others have "the cool stuff", and costumes, ATOs, and the wolf all fit with this).

As I've said, it doesn't always imply lying to people or misleading them about the deals being offered.

Edit:
And it would be far more honest to simply have every pack:

• Take the costumes and the wolf out of the random tables entirely.
• Set the card rarities to 2 Commons, 1 Uncommon, 1 Rare, 1 Very Rare
• Unlock 1 costume part for each of the first 11 packs.
• On the 15th pack bought give the account the black wolf pet.

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I'm sorry but I don't agree with this. For one thing, The argument isn't that they should change it now(though they should IMO), but that they should have made it non-exclusive to packs in the first place. The fact that it'll make people angry is the same as saying someone shouldn't be angry that they weren't made exclusive at the opening.

I also don't agree with the second. The Super Packs draw is that potentially you could spend far less and get far more. For 80pp you get a bunch of useful things and maybe a costume part. This sin't a bad idea. And I also don't think people would just not buy SuperPacks if they hadn't added in an exclusive costume set. I know I would have. I might even have bought a 24-pack in the chance that I'd get the whole costume set with other things, if I knew that even if I didn't get them all i could just go and buy the costume pieces I wanted separately. I won't buy them now because of this decision.

And to all the posters simply saying 'suck it up, the Devs did it'. Uh...This is the discussion thread! you're allowed to voice your displeasure!

But I think it's pretty telling that this argument has been going on since Tuesday without really slowing down much. There's clearly a large portion of the player base that finds this idea horribly bothersome to their idea of CoH and Paragon Studios in general.

I'm frankly rather bothered by the decision(enough that I'm posting here on the forums, which I almost never do[mostly I check out announcements then go and play]) because I want to give Paragon Studios Money for things and they're not letting me except through a roundabout, uncertain method I have no desire to use.


I think we need to bring the discussion back to the fact that the majority of the people in this thread against the packs are not against the Super Packs. They're against the thought of not being able to purchase the things found in said pack separately with a 100% guarantee of getting them.

I personally think it's stupid of NCSoft to not want to take my money for the costume set/vanity pet. And I think it's even sillier that they have no plan to introduce the EO set at a later date/are considering doing this for further sets.


So again

Super Packs aren't evil/horrible hellspawns that make Cole look like small time in comparison

BUT

Super Packs should not have exclusive items that you can only get without any guarantee by spending far more than you would otherwise. The draw of Super Packs should be that you can potentially get far more for your points than you did buying individually.

For myself, the only part of this I might find substantial issue with is the statement that's it's a large section of the playerbase that's upset with this. I have no idea if it's large or small, or going to change in either direction over the coming days and weeks.

The only thing that I do know is that, whatever section of the playerbase it is, the Devs have decided it's the unimportant section, as far as this issue goes. Which is, of course, their option.
Given some of their marketing missteps in the past, I wonder if they've gotten this one right. We'll see.

Agreed!
Honestly, this same discussion has been going on for months now - since it was revealed that the packs had exclusive rewards.
They changed it up for the ATOs, but not for the pet and the costume parts, much to my (and many others) disappointment.

The reason it has caused a stir - back then, since and continuing now - is because lot of people take issue with there being exclusive rewards within the pack. You are correct. That is what most people have stated. It's undeniable. Whether they want to change anything about it, is another story, but it was far from just a few of us voicing our negative feedback (for whatever any of that is worth).

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"Letting Paragon Studios off" WHAT hook? They're not on any hook. There's absolutely nothing shady going on here, and trying to twist it into a situation that looks like there is is, frankly, rather shady on YOUR part.

Yes. One is unethical, the other isn't. In spite of your weak attempts to word it in a way to make it sound like it is.

Actually, both are unethical. However I've not said that the developers are deceiving anyone. That you think I am saying that they are out to lie to their customers is your fabrication, not mine.

Edit:
If I have said that the developers are trying to deceive players with these packs, please point it out.

And for the record, I consider both lying to the customers and to make a predatory scheme like this to be both morally and ethically bankrupt.

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