Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 2/7/12
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2012-02-07 10:46 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Ghost Falcon is a business manager. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So... Ghost Falcon is Marketing now? Because last time he was the one taking point for deciding how things were bundled and marketed and their timing.
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Originally Posted by Ghost Falcon
Black Pebble / Marketing gets blamed for everything.
In Black Pebble's defense....: I (Ghost Falcon), as the Business Manager: 1) proposed and got buy off on all prices in the market prior to Freedom's launch 2) schedule all new items to be released in the Paragon Market. 3) write up 90% of all Paragon Market in-game text, 4) propose and schedule all in-game and in-store weekly sales promotions (even Black Friday), 5) examine all in-game store sales metrics and adjust prices / remove item(s) accordingly. |
As for this pack, and the Roman pack, I have to agree that there is no outward reason to limit the time these two packs are available as they are NOT tied in any shape or form to a specific event.
The Roman pack should return soon (edit: after it "expires" on Feb 29, 2012), and should include the Roman weapons. Better yet, a cheap "Roman Weapons" pack should be set up and both it and the Roman Armor/Shields should be made available year-round.
As to the "club" outfits (and it doesn't have anything to do with Valentines), they should also be available year-round.
Edit:
I do, however, appreciate that the bundle items are listed out.
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I seem to have a belt fetish in this game, certain ones I just love to bits. And...you're right, the hair looks great in the actual creator. I'm buying it, 4 pieces that I really want, so I may as well just get the whole shebang.
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Originally Posted by Oliin
Well obviously to each their own, but even though it's probably my favorite new hair in a while I don't really think it looks that fantastic in the picture either. It is in the character creator, so maybe look at it there.
I'm personally not a huge fan of the belt though I'd probably still use it on a character or two. It's nifty though in that the metal studs on the thing are shiny and reflective. Yay for ultra mode or something like that. |
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Well thats just flippin great...|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The Roman pack should return soon.
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I completely missed the fact that the Roman pack was another silly limited time deal due to the hysteria over the absent weapons.
I'd planned on purchasing it this evening when I signed on, to update a few characters...
Great.
Caveat: Yes I know it was my fault for not noticing but still, this is costing them more than it's earning them I fear.
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3960 points are sitting on my main account, accruing 550pp/month since the launch of freedom -- I've bought no points and have only picked up beam rifle and the barbarian pack I believe.....it's partially an interest issue and partially a valuation of the goods offered (i.e some packs are too pricy for what they offer and I have the self-control to wait).
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Anecdotal evidence:
I'm sitting on 900 something points as I've had nothing that interests me come out lately. I most likely would have bought the Halloween pack last week while creating a new toon, had the option been available. In turn, that would have meant I'd have to purchase more points to buy Staff when it finally hits. Instead I'm now able to save those points and as a result I won't have to spend any to get Staff... |
@Texarkana
@Thexder
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This is the post that is forwarded to their NCsoft masters.....
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Originally Posted by Ael Rhiana
I seem to have a belt fetish in this game, certain ones I just love to bits. And...you're right, the hair looks great in the actual creator. I'm buying it, 4 pieces that I really want, so I may as well just get the whole shebang.
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@Texarkana
@Thexder
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Some suggestions:|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
I completely missed the fact that the Roman pack was another silly limited time deal due to the hysteria over the absent weapons.
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- Add a category to the Paragon Market for Limited Time Offers, both sale prices and limited availability.
- Let seasonal items stay in the market all year, but raise their prices out of season.
- If you must time limit items, only do so for seasonally-themed goods.
I understand retail philosophy, but bear in mind that while a window of opportunity may inspire some people to spend more than usual, there are others on a budget who will opt to cut their CoH spending elsewhere, perhaps letting their subscription lapse for a month or two to pay for limited time items.
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Thanks for finding the quote.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Ghost Falcon is a business manager.
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So, Business Manager. Who seems to call the shots for the sales. And who makes it clear he's not Marketing. So... Production? Or a new category?
Then Zwill makes it clear that Marketing is calling the shots, which would exclude Ghost Falcon.
We've been around this maypole before: Devs blame Marketing, Marketing says it's Production. Production says it's a group decision with everyone having input.
All I know is this: Whoever's controlling the content of Paragon Market is making decisions that they wed themselves to such that player feedback from Beta, which is where they're previewing these items supposedly for feedback, is going unheeded and there is no dialogue. Then, when it goes Live and there is player pushback, there is simply rationalizations given with no clear intent for gauging the desires of the players or adjusting course.
Content, and art direction, and game mechanics all benefit from being responsive to players. But apparently, not the Paragon Market.
I'm becoming less and less inclined to test Market items and give feedback and point out bugs if that feedback doesn't also apply to the marketing of those items. And consequently, I'm becoming less and less inclined to buy things so awfully packaged, priced, and marketed.
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For me, it isn't even about the limited time deal (( though it is completely ludicrous that civilian costume parts are limited time purchases)). What gets me is the fact that in order to "save" points, I need to buy a pack that already has stuff that I have already previously purchased e.g. Dance emotes and VIP Pass. Why are these on here? One party Pack gives me all of these emotes. Why should I have to pay for something I already have? It comes off as greedy.
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Comes off? There is no comes off here, there is only IS.
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Originally Posted by Fluorescent
It comes off as greedy.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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You aren't. According to Ghost Falcon at least|
Originally Posted by Fluorescent
Why should I have to pay for something I already have? It comes off as greedy.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...03#post4063603
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Originally Posted by Ghost Falcon
There are 17 items within this Pack.
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"I saw my advantage and took it. That's what heroes do." - Homer Simpson.
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Great costume pieces, will buy the pack as soon as I log in. Have wanted something like this for years. Now all I need is a tracksuit, in terms of leisure time clothes |
Originally Posted by Beastyle
The Pocket D Valentines Pack - New!
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It's also nice to see all the pieces lined up in a post like this.But ...
I still don't get why you made this the 'valentine pack' and thus made it a limited time offer. Nothing about this pack says 'valentine' to me. I was expecting (and hoping) for the normal valentine costume items + some extras (since there's only a few). You know, like you did for those other events: Halloween, and the end of year holidays.
This item pack contains costume pieces a good number of people have been wanting for a long while now. And it really strikes me as an odd move to make them a limited time offer when they are perfectly usable outside of the valentine period.
This is the second odd move you made in terms of timed packs and their contents tied to this event. (The Roman costume pack, their limited time offering, and the exclusion of the non Romulus weapons but inclusion of the Romulus shield. Still trying to figure out the logic behind that decision.)
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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| For me, it isn't even about the limited time deal (( though it is completely ludicrous that civilian costume parts are limited time purchases)). What gets me is the fact that in order to "save" points, I need to buy a pack that already has stuff that I have already previously purchased e.g. Dance emotes and VIP Pass. Why are these on here? One party Pack gives me all of these emotes. Why should I have to pay for something I already have? It comes off as greedy. |
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Comes off? There is no comes off here, there is only IS.
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You guys got an odd sense of entitlement there. How dare you offer us a discount! We want MORE discount!
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Let's not get things twisted. I really consider all for profit companies in today's world greedy, it is nothing specific to Paragon and nothing that makes me feel entitled to a GD thing. I have always said companies can charge wth they please and do wth they want. That will not change my viewpoint of how I see it since I don't like the majority of their price points anyway, no entitlement stated or implied.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
How? If you disregard the emotes and the power (I do, since 'not interested' and 'already own' respectively) they're still offering a discount when you buy the pieces as a pack. From 480 to 400 points is still a ~15% discount.
You guys got an odd sense of entitlement there. How dare you offer us a discount! We want MORE discount! |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Business Manager is just that, the person who manages the Business aspects of the unit. Marketing WORKS for him, but they are the ones who stand up at meetings and say "X works, we make $Y profit from it every month... Z, not so much, we spend $W dollars on it but only get $V back in sales"|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Thanks for finding the quote.
So, Business Manager. Who seems to call the shots for the sales. And who makes it clear he's not Marketing. So... Production? Or a new category? I'm becoming less and less inclined to test Market items and give feedback and point out bugs if that feedback doesn't also apply to the marketing of those items. And consequently, I'm becoming less and less inclined to buy things so awfully packaged, priced, and marketed. |
And as for the second point, by all means do so. If there is one thing that will get a Business Mangers attention, its declining sales. It tells them exactly where we are willing to put our money, after all. And even though you and I dont buy something, if there are enough others that will fall for whatever marketing schema that its not noticeable to them, well, all our kvetching on the boards, even though we have the Incomporable Zwill (who does the best damn job of keeping the back enders in touch with what we actually think I've seen to date!) on our side wont get what we want.
I bought the female hairstyle on both my accounts and used is instantly (it's very nice)
The jeans are ok, but nothing special, the rest is.... meh.
The shoulders on the female jacket sleeves are seriously wrong (just compare where they end to any of the other sleeves) the male hair is way to high on the head even for that style and doesn't scale properly with the cranium slider (it just droops in the middle, looking very odd)
We are getting a _lot_ of broken or poorly thought through costume pack right now. I'm getting very sick of item-x-is-missing-from-category-y just because.
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Firstly, "The customer is always right." is nonsense. In fact, the customer is often an idiot.|
Originally Posted by Commander
Zwill, I appreciate you taking our concerns to heart. But I really do not get the backwards thinking going on in your marketing/business department. When it comes to making money, rule one is that you do not upset the customers. Remember the saying, "The customer is always right?" Well, these limited time sales just force on us, the customer, that we're 100% wrong and that you do not care about our business.
The only place that "limited time offers" work are in the fast food industry. You are not fast food. |
Secondly, limited time offers appear in many industries and they are effective.
Having made those points, IN THIS SITUATION, I feel the limited time offer makes no sense. We're not talking about a Santa suit, a Pilgrim outfit, a Jack-O-Lantern head - we're talking about street clothing. These are items that would make sense to wear 365 days of the year.
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Well, it is available until the end of THIS month. I meant that it should be a permanent item after the 29th.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Well thats just flippin great...
I completely missed the fact that the Roman pack was another silly limited time deal due to the hysteria over the absent weapons. I'd planned on purchasing it this evening when I signed on, to update a few characters... Great. |
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Originally Posted by Beastyle
Like the Roman empire, this 23-piece set won't last forever--it's available in the Paragon Market until February 29, 2012!
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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And I'm glad of it, considering that there are packs in the Paragon Market that actually cost *more* than their component parts. |
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
How? If you disregard the emotes and the power (I do, since 'not interested' and 'already own' respectively) they're still offering a discount when you buy the pieces as a pack. From 480 to 400 points is still a ~15% discount.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
As to the limited time; I hear you, I understand you, however limited time isn't something new for us and we don't have any plans on discontinuing this practice.
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Beyond that, it's also disappointing to get nice-looking jeans that don't mix-and-match well because of the heavy black shading. They look strange with other clothing unless you choose a very dark color, and even then the lustre is wrong for denim. The shirt is also pretty shiny for the "casual dress shirt" it's supposed to be, and the quilted jacket is outright plastic; I guess that's part of the theme, and nice if it's what your character concept calls for, but I'd be much more interested in having a quilted leather or cloth coat.
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Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
the male hair is way to high on the head even for that style and doesn't scale properly with the cranium slider (it just droops in the middle, looking very odd)
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The women's hairstyle is indeed nice, though.
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Any business that takes that attitude toward its customers soon finds itself abandonned by them for its competitors that don't.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Firstly, "The customer is always right." is nonsense. In fact, the customer is often an idiot.
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I have no idea if this is the correct thread to provide feedback for the designers, but here goes my input as far as the costumes for the female characters are concerned: [EDIT: Please note, my comments apply only to female characters; I don't play male or huge ones, so I didn't test those.]
1. Metallic top is good. I think the cut of the tank top option looks a little better around the chest than the metallic top does, no matter where the slider's set -- the edge of the top's more clearly defined -- but I like the back lacing and the straps. However, the metallic top does not appear as an underlayer when you select the jacket option, and I'd love to see that.
2. Skirt's good, too.
3. Love the boots -- with one exception. Can we get a leather setting as well as a metallic setting? These would go GREAT with the Excess Plus pattern if they were just leather instead of metallic.
4. Belt - terrific.
5. Hair - Cute.
6. Sunglasses - Also a like; been wanting something like that for a while.
7. Casual dress shirt - STINKS. The problem with several of the so-called unisex pieces which have been introduced recently is that while they're clearly designed to look good on male and huge characters, they do NOT look good on female characters, no matter what the character build or where the sliders are set. (The additional chest details for Celestial Armor are a classic example, which is a shame, because it's gorgeous on male characters.)
This shirt just makes the whole female torso look like a block sitting on top of skinny little legs. It would look really good if it were just designed to fit a female body, i.e., typically smaller waist. Too bad, too, because I liked the tie that went with it and it would have made a great sailor-type outfit otherwise. Completely not worth purchasing for female characters as it stands.
8. Quilted jacket - Will be excellent for a ski or winter themed outfit, so glad for that!
9. Acid washed jeans - I like the design and acid wash, but was very disappointed to see that somehow, the pants make the character's butt look flat. As in, it looks *really* weird flat, especially when viewed from the side. Again, doesn't matter where you set the slider, because I played with that, too, to see if either general physique or hips made a difference, and it didn't. None of the other pants options seem to have this problem, either, so can it be fixed? I'm guessing this is another option which was not originally designed for female characters, and sadly, it shows.
Thanks!
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There is a growing body of research in the microtransaction market that indicates that limited-time offers, both in terms of pricing and availability, are actually highly effective. Pretty solid numbers too, not just ephemeral trends subject to interpretation.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Firstly, "The customer is always right." is nonsense. In fact, the customer is often an idiot.
Secondly, limited time offers appear in many industries and they are effective. Having made those points, IN THIS SITUATION, I feel the limited time offer makes no sense. We're not talking about a Santa suit, a Pilgrim outfit, a Jack-O-Lantern head - we're talking about street clothing. These are items that would make sense to wear 365 days of the year. |
That said, good sales numbers do not necessarily add up to customer satisfaction, depending on how you measure such an elusive quantity. Survey results are mixed, but it's hard to credit the negative survey results in the light of sales figures. Anecdotal evidence tends to be much more negative about limited-time availability and is much easier to credit, but not for the right reason. Statisticians know that anecdotal evidence, especially from a source like a user forum, usually suffers from a strong self-selection bias, but we humans tend to give great credence to information imparted as a story. It's how we think and learn. So it's very easy to be swayed by well-delivered anecdotal evidence, even though in the cold hard light of reason we should not.
Thankfully, I've only studied the problem, aided by occasional access to proprietary data, and never had to participate in the decision-making. It's not an easy problem, and I don't envy anyone whose job it is.
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Quantity over quality. Bear in mind, it used to be the other way around. Then people started giving them money...| We are getting a _lot_ of broken or poorly thought through costume pack right now. I'm getting very sick of item-x-is-missing-from-category-y just because. |
Hey look folks, I get it that the dance stuffs and Pocket D pass might be bonuses, but I don't think it would be asking too much to actually get some new dance emotes instead. For those that don't have those dances yet or the Pass, I would say this is the perfect time to pick up them up. But for those that already have that stuff, we kinda get the short end of the stick on this.
Despite all this.... I still will end up getting this. Because I like civilian clothes and can forsee using them in future RPs. Buy I;d still like to make one observation about them. They so remind me of this:
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Any studies would be interesting to see. The microtransaction market spans such a wide variety of games - from grinder F2P MMOs to social network-based "cow-clicker", as well as MTX hybrids like COX - that there would have to be some pretty specific data to draw conclusions for our case.|
Originally Posted by Thunderfire
There is a growing body of research in the microtransaction market that indicates that limited-time offers, both in terms of pricing and availability, are actually highly effective. Pretty solid numbers too, not just ephemeral trends subject to interpretation.
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| That said, good sales numbers do not necessarily add up to customer satisfaction, depending on how you measure such an elusive quantity. |
The overall issue is that since CoH has moved from a subscription model with optional microtransactions to an F2P-MTX hybrid, there's a great deal of culture shock going on. Players who are used to being able to buy a given Super Pack year-round aren't going to react well to being informed that from now on, the Paragon Market equivalents will be available for only a week or a month at a time.
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Just FYI for those who might be interested-- I totally believe this in many cases. But just because it makes more money doesn't mean it's good for the game.|
Originally Posted by Thunderfire
There is a growing body of research in the microtransaction market that indicates that limited-time offers, both in terms of pricing and availability, are actually highly effective. Pretty solid numbers too, not just ephemeral trends subject to interpretation.
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I'm one of those people that, unlike Roger Ebert, thinks of video games as art. I want Paragon Studios to make as much money as they can without sacrificing their art or crossing ethical lines. Obviously art is highly subjective, and so "sacrificing art for money" is also going to be highly subjective. But if I were in a decision making position for a game whose major focuses are superheroes and customization, one of the reasons that I would not want to time-limit costume parts for the sake of making more money is that, in my opinion, the artistic value of having higher quality costume parts, or unique parts that enable specific concepts, available year-round is too high to give up for extra profit.
Now, if CoH is in danger of going under without these kinds of methods, then I understand and reluctantly support them, as sacrificing some of the art is better than losing all of it. But I'm operating under the assumption that they are in no such danger.
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Anecdotal evidence:
I'm sitting on 900 something points as I've had nothing that interests me come out lately. I most likely would have bought the Halloween pack last week while creating a new toon, had the option been available.
In turn, that would have meant I'd have to purchase more points to buy Staff when it finally hits. Instead I'm now able to save those points and as a result I won't have to spend any to get Staff...
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