Am I alone in not in a rush to see Statesman die?
I can't be 'left feeling' anything until a conclusion is reached. I'm currently curious as to where they're going with it - the death of a character or characters involved seems to be a consequence of where they're going rather than the actual "destination" as it were - but until that is seen I can't really be disappointed or left feeling hollow or what have you.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I just don't care
I care about Fusionette, Faultline, Flower Knight, and Blast Furnace
but I don't care about the phalanx
Oz, I completely agree. This has the same distasteful feeling of watching a terminal cancer patient die, you know it's coming, you know when it's coming, you know why it's coming, and you also know there's nothing you can do about it.
Personally, I like Statesman. The Statesman from the novels and comics, that is, as he's barely given any role in the actual game at all, even with countless evil alter-egos showing up every couple of issues. Rather, more than fondness for that character's depiction in the game (which, as many have point, could have been handled better), I admire what he represented, an uncompromising old-school hero in a morally decaying society. This is why they're killing him, not because he's a powerhouse, but because hero PCs should be able to do questionable things without having an NPC criticizing them.
If anything, hero players are the Mary Sues of this game, not Statesman. If the PCs succeed, it's because they're awesome. If the PCs fail, the game always sugarcoats it, as they can't be blamed of "failing" when they were simply following a mission's script.
Rejoice, though, it seems the writers are at least partially aware of our concerns, as Dark Astoria's initial contact offers the possibility of being unreasonable and trying to save everyone against all odds. You'll probably fail, though, the timer's pretty harsh, but nothing's stopping you from trying again
I don't care about any of the NPCs in the game. Fortunately, I also don't care about whether or not I care about them, so I remain free to enjoy the game regardless.
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We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Probably.
I only wish I could be the one stepping on his throat and walking over his corpse. That goes for the rest of the Phalanx too.
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I am not in a rush to see States die, either. I have nothing against him, but if he has to die for the storyline, then so be it. Just don't play it up excessively, don't rush it, don't drag it out, and for god's sake, let him stay dead. That last point was the most frustrating thing to me about Superman's death. I mean, come on, can't we let Superboy have the limelight for a while? Friggin space Jesus...
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I honestly can't say I have any feelings regarding his eventual passing. Partially cause this game is based on comics, so I don't expect him to stay dead. The other part is that I feel I would have more of a reaction had the devs not spoiled it. Instead of "OMG they killed Statesman! What now!?", I feel more like Eeyore: "oh look....Statesman's dead. Exactly like they told us before...."
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Pretty much indifferent. He's come across as a bit of a stiff-necked jerk in some of the stories, but he's not actually Jack Emmert, and he's not that important or unpleasant in the overall scheme of the world my characters experience. i care more about Hero One than Statesman.
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i make stuff...
He could have been handled much better than he was.
I just hope his death is handled better than that of his daughter.
And honestly, the reason I'm kinda "meh" about it is less "Oh it's a shame Statesman's dead" than "Nothing is going to change in the game other than Statesman being out of it."
Now if the game was going through a major revamp as a result of Statesman's death ... more villain groups running rampant through the streets, people losing hope and faith in their heroes ... a zone or two being lost in the fallout of his ending ... yeah.
I don't see that happening.
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Oz, I completely agree. This has the same distasteful feeling of watching a terminal cancer patient die, you know it's coming, you know when it's coming, you know why it's coming, and you also know there's nothing you can do about it.
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Count yourself lucky
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Personally, I like Statesman. The Statesman from the novels and comics,
that is, |
I am not in a rush to see States die, either. I have nothing against him, but if he has to die for the storyline, then so be it. Just don't play it up excessively, don't rush it, don't drag it out, and for god's sake, let him stay dead.
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And frankly, that just adds to the depressing aspect of it; the Devs are not just going to kill him--- they want him completely erased from the game, like one of Stalin's enemies. That is just sad.
If limited to the interactions one has in the CoH game proper, it is very tough to produce NPCs who have much positive depth. It is easy to convey that Crimson is a curt and rude guy. How does one convey other things within the constraints of the narrative medium available in-game? I think the Devs made a noble effort to convey, for example, Madeleine Casey's increasing mental instability, but was it all that compelling?
The problem is even more pronounced when working with the signature characters, who get limited to "X showed up and saved the day" announcements in-game. Positron, for example, has a fascinating backstory and a lot of potential to explore... but it does not happen. Statesman has the same problem, and even more pronounced.
Since all 50s in the Beta right now are treated as Incarnates, even if they are not, I have played through a number of the new Dark Astoria arcs. I have to say, the writing, the pacing and the use of "special effects" and setting have all been quite good thus far. The DA material, though, pretty much introduces all-new personnel thus far, and even the villains that I have run into that I recognize get some backstory added from our contacts, in case you have not played enought on redside to be familiar with them. It all seems to flow very well.
Meanwhile, the last two SSAs have been absolute train wrecks, especially in trying to depict the signature characters and their interactions with each other. Plot developments that are apparently necessary to the end result desired run the player over like a freight train. Well, I have laid out my criticisms of the SSAs elsewhere, but it goes to show you that advancing the characterizations of the signature characters is extremely tough to do within the game itself, and triply so to do in a positive manner.
Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that the "Smoke and Mirrors" arc in the comics is far superior to the arc in the game. The exposition can proceed in a more nuanced fashion and the opportunities to use dialogue to flesh out the characters is vast. (Let's face it, a large number of folks enjoy quoting from movies. When someone alludes to "that really cool sword fight," in a film, they will get some general agreement, but when someone says, "Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." then the emotional link is triggered and the knowing smiles break out.) The implications of the actions taken by the protagonists and their motivations for doing so can be presented so that the reader can absorb these facets as they proceed. In the game, these parts of the story get reduced to cutscenes and some in-game dialogue that is tough to follow when baddies are trying to off you. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the in-game arc, but the comic just blew me away.
So for the players of CoH that never read the official backstory, or the novels, or Troy Hickman's aforementioned three-issue arc in the comics(do yourself a favor, then ftp://ftp.coh.com/comics/topcow/comic_04.pdf ftp://ftp.coh.com/comics/topcow/comic_05.pdf ftp://ftp.coh.com/comics/topcow/comic_06.pdf then Statesman, and indeed, pretty much all the signature heroes in the game, are pretty much cardboard cutouts. There are some arcs in CoH that still manage, within the limits imposed, to be rather compelling, and indeed, produce an emotional reaction in many players. They do not involve the signature characters in my experience, and are typically tragic, and it is usually not feasible for the characters to carry forward, either because they are deceased, transformed, arrested or what have you. (As one wag put it, "You can't make 'Death of a Salesman' into a weekly TV show.") Good material regarding the signature characters on a continuing basis within the context of the game that positively advances their personalities will remain tough to do.
So farewell to the Statesman, at least the one that Troy Hickman brought to life. Alas, Marcus, we hardly knew ye.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Nah, I agree with you. And what bothers me more are the people who want to 'pull the trigger' themselves.
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Seriously though, the death of Statesman will be a big win for villains. Can you blame people for wanting their own villains to be at the center of it, instead of playing lackey so someone else can have all the fun?
Well, Positron and other Devs have said that not only is he going to STAY dead, he is going to be removed completely from the game. Noble Savage, for example, confirmed that the new Statesman splash screen being seen in Beta was in the nature of a memorial. So you are going to get your wish, apparently.
And frankly, that just adds to the depressing aspect of it; the Devs are not just going to kill him--- they want him completely erased from the game, like one of Stalin's enemies. That is just sad. |
Since all 50s in the Beta right now are treated as Incarnates, even if they are not, I have played through a number of the new Dark Astoria arcs. |
Me, I'm only in a rush to see Statesman die so I can criticize the execution. I actually had a few good things to say about the DA arcs, so I need something to spew unmitigated vitriol about.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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I just don't care
I care about Fusionette, Faultline, Flower Knight, and Blast Furnace but I don't care about the phalanx |
And no Statesman being erased from the game isn't very sad when you remember he has little to no depth (anymore) and the developer behind him is the cause of No-SG base updates.
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I don't care at all, now that they told me ahead of time.
And I don't trust them to leave the event with the proper emotional power such a move would deserve. The Well will revive him or some such silliness.
Well, duh. If my villain kills Statesman all the other villains will think I'm cool.
Seriously though, the death of Statesman will be a big win for villains. Can you blame people for wanting their own villains to be at the center of it, instead of playing lackey so someone else can have all the fun? |
To an extent I get that. But at the same time, you've got bigger, badder villains who have been out for Statesmans blood for a long time. Not to mention any specific names. I also think it adds a certain amount of arrogance "I am the only one strong enough to take down Statesman!" when really...we're all approaching god like levels of power at this point.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
Well, on the practical level, I"m looking forward to another hero merit. I'm also looking forward to seeing where they are going with it. States himself...really hasn't been a major factor in the ingame universe. books and comics, sure, but igame, i rescued him once, and i talked to him while kicking recluses butt, but the game casts me as the hero, i stopped the rikti commander, i stomped nem a few times, I fought the praetorians with a bunch of other heroes, ditto with imperious, rularru in the cathedral and the other major tf guys. Heck, the loss of a big lb'er s character would affect me ingame more than any tf dispenser. on one hand, its cool, rian frostdrake is a hero, and his "supergroup" is liberty server , but it did miss out on oppertunities to characterize the original npcs as well. I care about tunnel rat more than i do the phalanx.
No, you really aren't alone in not rushing to see Statesman die.
The developers have chosen to remove the most recognizable figure from the game.
They take away the Golden,Silver and Modern age hero all in one.
There are many versions of him, written different ways, different people don't like the character for whatever reasons.
But to me, they are removing the symbol of the game.
No longer really matters the 'why' or the 'how' or even if the character will ever come back.
Just seems so very odd to take the figurehead of the game out.
Maybe there was some long ago deal when Jack left that after so much time, the rights to the character reverts back to him and they are left with no choice. Who knows anymore, even if that were true, we would not hear about that stuff until it was all over.
Oh well.. Statesman is dead, perhaps some other stories can now be finished instead of sitting idle.
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Eva,
I think a large part of the problem then becomes 'what now?' for villains after that point. Statesman is the signature hero of the game. There is no cosmic-level equivalent that villains can aspire to take down, and having an antagonist for a villain to keep trying to take down is a necessary staple of drama, let alone superhero stories.
I do feel there's a genuine morbidity (like people, even myself, have when we see a car accident) to proceedings, and I agree with Melancton in that the Phalanx particularly is being ripped apart not so much by their actions but by how they're being written. But that's a seperate issue.
Honestly, I can appreciate a desire to do something new after ten years on the behalf of the Devs; there's a lot of these characters that are their own personal ones and they may well feel ready to move on. In some ways, I think what we're witnessing is CoH's own Crisis on Infinite Earths, based on what I'm hearing about Dark Astoria. Everything and everyone is escalating and I don't think it can be resolved through diplomacy.
That being said, DC's original killing off of Supergirl was moving, heroic and genuinely surprising. This just seems like a wake gone wrong.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
To an extent I get that. But at the same time, you've got bigger, badder villains who have been out for Statesmans blood for a long time. Not to mention any specific names. I also think it adds a certain amount of arrogance "I am the only one strong enough to take down Statesman!" when really...we're all approaching god like levels of power at this point.
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And you're damn right, it's arrogant. So is referring to yourself in the third person and demanding people build a giant statue of you and call you Supreme Overlord. What's your point?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Eva,
I think a large part of the problem then becomes 'what now?' for villains after that point. Statesman is the signature hero of the game. There is no cosmic-level equivalent that villains can aspire to take down, and having an antagonist for a villain to keep trying to take down is a necessary staple of drama, let alone superhero stories. |
That being said, DC's original killing off of Supergirl was moving, heroic and genuinely surprising. This just seems like a wake gone wrong. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I just don't care
I care about Fusionette, Faultline, Flower Knight, and Blast Furnace but I don't care about the phalanx |
This. And, to expand a bit..
I care about Tunnel Rat and BV, I care about Penny Yin and My Mirror Universe Self, I even care about Dean MacArthur and Willy Wheeler.
I just never have, and probably never will care about Statesman.
The news of his impending death, well, lets go to Broadway for a moment....
..."six months later I heard that Karp had died. So I dug right down to the bottom of my soul, and cried... Cause I felt, nothing."
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
Since all 50s in the Beta right now are treated as Incarnates, even if they are not, I have played through a number of the new Dark Astoria arcs. |
Don't the patch notes specifically say the DA arcs are only available to characters with the Alpha Slot unlocked?
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Tunnel Rat had some fine writing going for her; very well done. Blast Furnace's Tip Mission also seemed to touch a lot of players positively.
I note that some folks have even said they care about Fusionette.
Those folks and the others noted are quite vulnerable and the player is able to assist them. We are aware when we do that the stakes are very high for them, and our being able to help them stirs our empathy and helps create a bond. That is very tough to pull off with Statesman or any of the other signature characters, and indeed, it seems it has not happened.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
This thought occurred to me just the other day when the announce date was confirmed, and after all the hype the community team have given it, all the 'yay, Statesman's dying, he's (insert your derogatory thought or comment here)' posts on the forums and even the promotional imagery.
I'm not going to be in a rush to see Statesman die.
Funny, even as I typed that it seems a bit morbid, because that's what effectively we're doing, even for a fictional character. I know, it's the same morbidity that drove sales for Death of Superman or the new Batman in the 1990's, but I'm increasingly finding that it's not something I find myself attracted to.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not squeamish or perturbed by death in comics; I've probably experienced a bit more real-world death on a personal level than most people I know in the last six years especially, but that's neither here nor there.
I haven't felt comfortable or felt the decision to 'kill off' Statesman was a good one for a while. I also think the various posters who deride Statesman for being a Marty Stu or a reminder of Mr. Emmert or a four-color hero (I could go on and on, but honestly nowhere near the level of some posters) also bother me a bit because I feel like the complaints may well continue on beyond the event, or the event may not be to their satisfaction, and I find that a bit morbid also.
I admit as I type this I have trouble putting my finger on just what it is; maybe it's that I know this character is dying, that I can't do anything about it and that there are some expectations as to how I should feel when it happens.
That it's not something natural and is a genuine reaction on my part.
I've been playing another game, set somewhere far, far away, and even if the stories there are similarly linear, I at least feel I have a choice in my decisions, a choice to react and think about how I feel about them. I think I would at least like a chance to save Statesman, but I know that it won't matter, and that's almost like salt in the wound in some ways.
And maybe that's the heart of it; I'm being asked to care....no. I feel like I'm being told I should. And I actually like Statesman, I've said as such. But this feels....hollow, somehow.
Am I alone in this? Is anyone else just left feeling....not much at all?
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse