Am I alone in not in a rush to see Statesman die?
By
Archiviste,
Posted on: 2012-01-15 09:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This. I'm far more interested in whats going to happen after he dies with glacia and infernia as contacts. Really could care less that statesman is kicking the bucket though.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Why are the future Who Will Die? Arc contacts members of Vanguard?
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Yes, and if you go to Ouroboros you can buy Astral and Empyrean merits for 1 inf. It's Beta, they want you to test Incarnate content, so they automatically unlock your Alpha slot for you.
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Originally Posted by Melancton
When I logged on with a 50 with no Incarnate anything, there was a MOTD style announcement that all 50s would be treated as having unlocked the Alpha Slot, and badda bang, badda bing I could talk to the DA contact and do the arc. Could be a limited time offer, your mileage may vary, void where prohibited.
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I'm not in a "rush" - this has been going on for close on six months or so - so it's hardly happening at breakneck speed anyhow.
I've never had a problem with Statesman per se, but he's rarely presented in a sympathetic way which lets us get inside him and understand him from his POV - and so he's tended to come across as an uptight stuffed shirt.
I'm also guessing that the conclusion of the Praetorian tales would be very difficult if he's still around - it would be rather difficult for us to face off against Emperor Cole in the Grand Finale if he's still around and has our back - it weakens the grandeur of the tale.
Thus, the simplest remedy is to remove him from the game as we are elevated to take his place (which presents another bunch of issues but I won't go into them here) and I'm not unhappy with that proposition.
What is to my mind totally critical is simply that his death must be completely epic and inspiring - and I don't know if there are many writers capable of pulling that off in (or indeed out) of the game - it will present a huge challenge. But it is totally necessary, because anything less for such an iconic signature of the game will cheapen the game itself - and this bothers me because from what I've seen of the WWD arc so far I'm not sure it's up to such a high mark.
Thelonious Monk
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I don't think I can agree with this in the slightest. It is said that a good story needs a good villain, but I'm not sure a good story needs a good hero, at least when told from the perspective of a villain. Take something a simple as Bullfrog's Dungeon Keeper - it's a game with no antagonist. You play as the master of hellspawn and you go about defiling land after land, with only "the lord of the realm" trying to stop you, but it's always the same-looking knights who's never named. Even "the avatar" is just another faceless knight, just a lot more powerful.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
I think a large part of the problem then becomes 'what now?' for villains after that point. Statesman is the signature hero of the game. There is no cosmic-level equivalent that villains can aspire to take down, and having an antagonist for a villain to keep trying to take down is a necessary staple of drama, let alone superhero stories.
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To a large extent, I find a villain who's obsessed with defeating a hero to be more pathetic and sad than impressive, as this obsession serves as a character flaw more than anything else. A villain with the ambition to rule the world is impressive, because he has a productive goal. A villain with the ambition to defeat his heroic counterpart is quaint, in the sense that just teleporting them both away to a barren world to duke it out between themselves seems like the best solution.
To me, the Statesman is the ultimate representation of just this kind of damaging, embarrassing character flaw that sinks most good villains, and you need look no further than Lord Recluse, the man who comes off as the Statesman's spurned boyfriend than anything else. Hell, his moment of absolute triumph is defeating the Statesman, larger ambitions be damned. He's beaten the Statesman and destroyed the world, and he can now die a happy man. Which he does. At my hands. ... I can't respect that.
Mender Ramiel has one of the best lines in the game, at least in terms of lines of narrative, right at the start of his arc. When "the coming storm" destroys the Ouroboros citadel, it doesn't stick around to kill them all. Why? Because they're defeated and helpless. The greatest shame for the Menders is not to die, but to be rendered irrelevant. Because "the coming storm" isn't a petty villain only obsessed with killing its arch rival. It is a cosmic disaster that is too big to HAVE rivals in the first place. That, to me, is what makes a good villain truly good.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Am I the only who is glad to see him die? I hope it is slow and painful |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
This thought occurred to me just the other day when the announce date was confirmed, and after all the hype the community team have given it, all the 'yay, Statesman's dying, he's (insert your derogatory thought or comment here)' posts on the forums and even the promotional imagery.
I'm not going to be in a rush to see Statesman die. Funny, even as I typed that it seems a bit morbid, because that's what effectively we're doing, even for a fictional character. I know, it's the same morbidity that drove sales for Death of Superman or the new Batman in the 1990's, but I'm increasingly finding that it's not something I find myself attracted to. Don't get me wrong, I'm not squeamish or perturbed by death in comics; I've probably experienced a bit more real-world death on a personal level than most people I know in the last six years especially, but that's neither here nor there. I haven't felt comfortable or felt the decision to 'kill off' Statesman was a good one for a while. I also think the various posters who deride Statesman for being a Marty Stu or a reminder of Mr. Emmert or a four-color hero (I could go on and on, but honestly nowhere near the level of some posters) also bother me a bit because I feel like the complaints may well continue on beyond the event, or the event may not be to their satisfaction, and I find that a bit morbid also. I admit as I type this I have trouble putting my finger on just what it is; maybe it's that I know this character is dying, that I can't do anything about it and that there are some expectations as to how I should feel when it happens. That it's not something natural and is a genuine reaction on my part. I've been playing another game, set somewhere far, far away, and even if the stories there are similarly linear, I at least feel I have a choice in my decisions, a choice to react and think about how I feel about them. I think I would at least like a chance to save Statesman, but I know that it won't matter, and that's almost like salt in the wound in some ways. And maybe that's the heart of it; I'm being asked to care....no. I feel like I'm being told I should. And I actually like Statesman, I've said as such. But this feels....hollow, somehow. Am I alone in this? Is anyone else just left feeling....not much at all? S. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think I can agree with this in the slightest. It is said that a good story needs a good villain, but I'm not sure a good story needs a good hero, at least when told from the perspective of a villain. Take something a simple as Bullfrog's Dungeon Keeper - it's a game with no antagonist. You play as the master of hellspawn and you go about defiling land after land, with only "the lord of the realm" trying to stop you, but it's always the same-looking knights who's never named. Even "the avatar" is just another faceless knight, just a lot more powerful.
To a large extent, I find a villain who's obsessed with defeating a hero to be more pathetic and sad than impressive, as this obsession serves as a character flaw more than anything else. A villain with the ambition to rule the world is impressive, because he has a productive goal. A villain with the ambition to defeat his heroic counterpart is quaint, in the sense that just teleporting them both away to a barren world to duke it out between themselves seems like the best solution. To me, the Statesman is the ultimate representation of just this kind of damaging, embarrassing character flaw that sinks most good villains, and you need look no further than Lord Recluse, the man who comes off as the Statesman's spurned boyfriend than anything else. Hell, his moment of absolute triumph is defeating the Statesman, larger ambitions be damned. He's beaten the Statesman and destroyed the world, and he can now die a happy man. Which he does. At my hands. ... I can't respect that. Mender Ramiel has one of the best lines in the game, at least in terms of lines of narrative, right at the start of his arc. When "the coming storm" destroys the Ouroboros citadel, it doesn't stick around to kill them all. Why? Because they're defeated and helpless. The greatest shame for the Menders is not to die, but to be rendered irrelevant. Because "the coming storm" isn't a petty villain only obsessed with killing its arch rival. It is a cosmic disaster that is too big to HAVE rivals in the first place. That, to me, is what makes a good villain truly good. |
Forgive me Sam, but that's not what I was arguing. You and I both know that the key to any good drama is conflict and you need an antagonist and a protagonist to make that happen. If a villain is going to try and take over the world, it's not much of a story if noone's there to oppose him. That's the narrative role of the hero.
If the villain's thwarted in his scheme, then it's a natural motivation to remove the obstacle in whatever way they can to continue on. But if you remove that obstacle, any tension in the situation's removed. I'm always reminded of the famous Doctor Doom story where Doom in fact succeeded in taking over the world, only to discover his life had no real meaning when he achieved his goal. All characters need to strive for something, no matter what it is, and without that, they're an empty cipher. They would in fact be the very faceless character you referenced above.
Statesman's hardly embarassing, I'm not sure how you come to that point. Nor is he a flaw in Recluse's character. I have trouble seeing how you've come to that point, but I am aware you have a long-standing distaste of the status quo of heroes and villains in this game regarding their relationship. And that is really the key phrase; this game because of its inherently static nature demands a status quo to be maintained.
We can never be the alpha characters because we, more than anything in the game, are transient. Other players will come along, we will move along in some form or another. NPC's have no such real life restrictions and can stay forever. Without the balance of heroes to villains, we may as well cancel our subscriptions and just play single-person console games.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Not all of them. #6 is an armored cop in PI.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
This. I'm far more interested in whats going to happen after he dies with glacia and infernia as contacts. Really could care less that statesman is kicking the bucket though.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
It makes sense that Infernia and Glacia are involved with the SSA. So far the entire thing has been about filling in the backstory that what are now the oldest-school heroes in the game never had in the first place. The surviving members of Omega Team inhabit a similar realm of never-quite-discussedness.
I'm pretty excited to see how things shake out tomorrow. Before Praetoria and the new midbie content I never gave any plot points a moment's thought past my first reading of them because there was nothing there to think about. Since then the midbie content continues to be compelling, First Ward was very good, and even so the SSAs have pretty much topped it all. It doesn't matter if Statesman dies or not, he basically existed to reassure prospective customers that, "Hey, this game doesn't look too weird, look at this prominent fellow on the box! Doesn't he remind you of those comic book heroes you always used to enjoy? He should, but we hope not to a legally provable extent."
At the same time, it does matter because it represents a continuation of the current dev attitude that players don't have to be kept in sensory isolation chambers as we essentially were in most legacy content. Go ahead and run as many old arcs as you want, you will never meet a character that exists in the larger game world and your actions will never have any repercussions. If you steal a cool artifact your bonus will be conferred to you in a generic sum of influence and experience, just as though you'd saved the ambassador to Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan.
That's not how things work in contemporary content. The simple act of removing Statesman from Indy Port, A Hero's Epic and the RSF is enough to ensure that SSA1.5 will be more memorable and more fun for me than any of that dusty old crap we used to call story.
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No, you're not alone.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
I'm not going to be in a rush to see Statesman die.
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I don't understand the hatred for Statesman either. Whether you like him or not, he's been the face of this game forever. I wonder what or who will represent the personality of this game after Statesman is gone.
Maybe no one. And that's sad.
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Except we haven't taken over the world, have we? To expand on your Doctor Doom example, we've gotten rid of RICHARDS!!! but it's not like the Avengers and the X-Men are going to stand aside and let us take over the world. I don't think a lot of player characters have "defeat Statesman" as their main goal in life. It's more like something to do when you get burnt out on working on that death ray.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
If the villain's thwarted in his scheme, then it's a natural motivation to remove the obstacle in whatever way they can to continue on. But if you remove that obstacle, any tension in the situation's removed. I'm always reminded of the famous Doctor Doom story where Doom in fact succeeded in taking over the world, only to discover his life had no real meaning when he achieved his goal. All characters need to strive for something, no matter what it is, and without that, they're an empty cipher. They would in fact be the very faceless character you referenced above.
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Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
As mentioned a DEATH in a super hero comic is not unheard of so the idea of Statesman passing on is not that outrageous. What it does for the game and for NC Soft is...
1. Since the game began Statesman has been regarded as the most powerful hero in Paragon City. With him gone it allows the players to fill the game as the new "Incarnates" and the focus of the game shifts from us working for ONE guy or at the very least working to be like that ONE guy to a place where we can feel like we are that ONE guy!
2. From the company side the figure of Statesman, for many of us older vets, is always associated with the former head of Cryptic Studios who used Statesman as HIS in game persona. With the in game death of the character Statesman NC Soft sheds the last remnant of the old days ... In short Statesman, Cryptic, is gone! We run things around here now!
Personally I don't have and extremenly close ties to any of the NPC characters... If any at all I would say i enjoy Back Alley Brawler .. was glad to see they moved him to Atlas when Galaxy City was destroyed. Manticore because I like the idea of the hero with no special powers plus it seems like in some of the comics he's actually the one that is willing to speak up and oppose Statesman from time to time.
One thing the death of States does do is raise a few interesting questions..
1. Okay exactly who is this guy sending me off to battle Arachnos and Lord Recluse? Obviously they can always say that the "STATESMAN Task Force" takes place prior to the eventual death of Statesman but as a 50(+3) Incarnate that 20 minutes ago just completed the underground Trial I can join an STF... Getting even wierder.. as that same 50(+3) I could complete SSA part 5 an watch Statesman die.. then turn right around an form an STF.
2. I am a 45-50 level villain and I just completed SSA part 5 and saw Statesman dead.. so who is this guy that looks exactly like him I am now battling on the final mission of the Lord Recluse Strike Force?
3. in keeping the tradition going.. I am about to complete the final mission of Marie Jenkin's Arc in Peregrine Island.. So who is this Statesman guy I am rescuing and why am I now his pal? Oh also was that a ghost that actually helped me complete several of the earlier missions in the arc?
Okay you get the idea LOL And of course they can easily state that all the events I just described and more occurred in a timeline that preceeded Statesman's eventual death but it is a little strange to think we can go to PI and run a short story arc that ends with him dead and then moments later be standing on that ship in IP staring at him. 
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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No. I still remember the opening cinematic from when I first installed the game, and loved how the "main" hero Statesman changed over the years. How do you kill your mascot?|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Am I alone in this?
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Oooh, nice CHORUS LINE reference. |
Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
This. And, to expand a bit..
I care about Tunnel Rat and BV, I care about Penny Yin and My Mirror Universe Self, I even care about Dean MacArthur and Willy Wheeler. I just never have, and probably never will care about Statesman. The news of his impending death, well, lets go to Broadway for a moment.... ..."six months later I heard that Karp had died. So I dug right down to the bottom of my soul, and cried... Cause I felt, nothing." |
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All the content that features Statesman will be removed or altered after he dies, except for the tutorial - it won't happen right away, so he'll still be there tomorrow, but it is going to be updated.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
One thing the death of States does do is raise a few interesting questions..
1. Okay exactly who is this guy sending me off to battle Arachnos and Lord Recluse? Obviously they can always say that the "STATESMAN Task Force" takes place prior to the eventual death of Statesman but as a 50(+3) Incarnate that 20 minutes ago just completed the underground Trial I can join an STF... Getting even wierder.. as that same 50(+3) I could complete SSA part 5 an watch Statesman die.. then turn right around an form an STF. 2. I am a 45-50 level villain and I just completed SSA part 5 and saw Statesman dead.. so who is this guy that looks exactly like him I am now battling on the final mission of the Lord Recluse Strike Force? 3. in keeping the tradition going.. I am about to complete the final mission of Marie Jenkin's Arc in Peregrine Island.. So who is this Statesman guy I am rescuing and why am I now his pal? Oh also was that a ghost that actually helped me complete several of the earlier missions in the arc? Okay you get the idea LOL And of course they can easily state that all the events I just described and more occurred in a timeline that preceeded Statesman's eventual death but it is a little strange to think we can go to PI and run a short story arc that ends with him dead and then moments later be standing on that ship in IP staring at him. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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This is how I feel, exactly. From the first day of gameplay, Statesman was the ultimate symbol for CoH. A role model, sort of like the hero we all look up to and aspire to emulate. While there are so many players who don't care one way or another, I do. Of all the changes this game has gone through, this is the only one I am most against....and saddened by. He is NOT Jack Emmert. He is the leader on which the game is based. I know that this is 'just a game'...I know that 'things' change. But, unlike real life and fate, this is one thing that is controllable. I will never understand why eliminating Statesman seems to be so necessary after seven years. No one can ever replace him for me.
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Originally Posted by Cosmic_Herald
No, you really aren't alone in not rushing to see Statesman die.
But to me, they are removing the symbol of the game. |
�Many things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done.�
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This. Though I'm happy to see him go if it serves a purpose, if that makes any sense?|
Originally Posted by Healix
This is how I feel, exactly. From the first day of gameplay, Statesman was the ultimate symbol for CoH. A role model, sort of like the hero we all look up to and aspire to emulate. While there are so many players who don't care one way or another, I do. Of all the changes this game has gone through, this is the only one I am most against....and saddened by. He is NOT Jack Emmert. He is the leader on which the game is based. I know that this is 'just a game'...I know that 'things' change. But, unlike real life and fate, this is one thing that is controllable. I will never understand why eliminating Statesman seems to be so necessary after seven years. No one can ever replace him for me.
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I was an avid reader of super hero comics long before I joined this game. I joined in Issue-2 when my kid began to play, because a friend of his played it. I, personally, avoided MMO's due to the concept of MMO's, and from the addictive nature I heard that spawned from it {evercrack and whatnot}. I wanted to know what he was getting into.
I started with the 'DVD edition' of this game, and was hooked ever since. The generic 'Statesman Sez' from the manual was a factor in the creation of my 'main' and was a personal gude I used afterward in the creation of any new characters after that.
As the 'signature' character of this game since the beginning, this holds a weight to it that cannot be properly ascribed to those that came as a part of it after his entrance into the lore, and ignoring him after. This is a failing on the Dev's part, and I'll leave it at that (I was around when Emmert left, but he's not Statesman- the concept isn't, and didn't have to be, the same) wasn't the justice it deserved for the players.
With all that said, I don't mind that they kill off Statesman, as long as it's fitting for him, and more specifically, what he represents.
There's nothing they can really change between now and Tuesday when I read the story arc to the rest of my SG that will add depth to it. All I can hope is that they do add that depth and that's enjoyable to my SG.
And if they're entertained with the story... I'm happy however it turns out, though I don't think I can ever say I'm 'happy' with his departure.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Yeah, exactly.|
Originally Posted by Healix
This is how I feel, exactly. From the first day of gameplay, Statesman was the ultimate symbol for CoH. A role model, sort of like the hero we all look up to and aspire to emulate. While there are so many players who don't care one way or another, I do. Of all the changes this game has gone through, this is the only one I am most against....and saddened by. He is NOT Jack Emmert. He is the leader on which the game is based. I know that this is 'just a game'...I know that 'things' change. But, unlike real life and fate, this is one thing that is controllable. I will never understand why eliminating Statesman seems to be so necessary after seven years. No one can ever replace him for me.
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He's always been the face of the game. Even if he hasn't always been written properly or well, he's been the top hero that all the other heroes look up to, the one with the rivalry with the head of Arachnos, the one who's been front and center of just about every loading screen. He's the equivalent of Superman - not only to DC comics, but to comics in general.
The symbol for heroes is Statesman's star, just as the symbol for villains is the Arachnos spider. He represented the entire hero side of the game.
And, while I've had plenty of heroes and villains as "sidekicks", following me around on various missions, the one I found most exciting - the moment I felt like my character had really "made it", like I was really in the big leagues now - was when Statesman was the one following me around, after I'd just rescued him from Pretoria.
And now they just killed him off. The Justice League just lost its Superman, the Avengers just lost its Captain America. Who will replace him? Who's going to be the face of the game now? Not Hawkeye/Green Arrow, or Quicksilver/Flash, or even Iron Man (especially not an Iron Man in rusty-looking puke-green armor). They don't have that sort of gravitas.
Even the devs don't seem to know, since the I22 loading screen still has Statesman front and center.
So, to sum up: no, sir, I don't like it.
I'm hoping Statesman isn't permanently dead, as I think he has a lot of good stories in him.
Also, he hasn't returned my lawnmower...
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
Statesman was a bro in the Maria Jenkins arc. Of course it's frustrating to be told he doesn't trust me enough to let me be incarnate after I beat down every major Praetorian to save him.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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HA! What would YOU know about good stories involving Statesman?!?|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
I'm hoping Statesman isn't permanently dead, as I think he has a lot of good stories in him.
Also, he hasn't returned my lawnmower... |
(It's a rhetorical question! If you were not around for the CoH comic Back in the Day, do yourself a favor and peruse Brotha Hickman's work) :
ftp://ftp.coh.com/comics/topcow/comic_04.pdf
ftp://ftp.coh.com/comics/topcow/comic_05.pdf
ftp://ftp.coh.com/comics/topcow/comic_06.pdf
Bummer about the lawnmower, though...
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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I'm not either, but it has more to do with the format of the SSA.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
I'm not going to be in a rush to see Statesman die.
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To use a comic-book analogy:
I've "read" (played) the first 2 "books" in the SSA so far, and it's been "meh".
I'll wait till the "trade paperback" (all 7 parts) comes out to pick it up again and "read" it all in one setting.
Keep NCSoft from shutting down City of Heroes : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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So very this. They are effective characters. States is not.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I just don't care
I care about Fusionette, Faultline, Flower Knight, and Blast Furnace but I don't care about the phalanx |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
You're not alone. I was sad to see him die.
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Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
I'm hoping Statesman isn't permanently dead, as I think he has a lot of good stories in him.
Also, he hasn't returned my lawnmower... |
Well, you get that with your backyard being in Alaska....plus, you need your ape pagoda fixed, don't you? Can't have all those simians running amok.
Or even running with a mok....
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I'll miss Statesman.
I liked him. He wasn't a "I am the GREATEST!" type of superhero the way Superman or Captain America are (they aren't in a boastful way, mind you; they are just the epitome of what Marvel and DC picture as being "heroic"). He was human, just like us, and capable of making mistakes.
And the playerbase/general public were as harsh with him as if he were the President.
Ah well. Now it's time to look to the future.
Why are the future Who Will Die? Arc contacts members of Vanguard?
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.