Am I alone in not in a rush to see Statesman die?
By
Archiviste,
Posted on: 2012-01-15 09:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Surely you jest?
Your name is surely, right?
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I'm being serious.....
And don't call me shirley. 
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
Dear OP, I get what your saying, but its largely based on a mythical figure who never existed even in our games world.
The following is my view of statesman since year one, and personally I feel all lore since has only supported it.
The man named Marcus Cole was a good and noble soul once upon a time. After the great war he and his friend became fascinated by myths of ancient beings commonly called Gods.
During this same time roughly the Dawn Patrol was founded and being lead by the first true hero of our era, Sir Alistair Sutton a ace fighter pilot in the great war and founder of the first super group. These brave and noble men would scour the globe learning all they could about the occult, magic, ancient technology, and the most secret and estoric of martial arts. They where taking the batman path as it might be called.
Marcus and Stefan on the other hand where glory hounds, eager to aquire knowledge and power. For that lust they would pay the ultimate price. For when they found what they called the well of furies( not its real name despite what its called in game) which is in fact just one of many portals linking the multiverse. It lead to the dimension where extra dimensional entities must reside when they cannot find a suitable host. I nicked named them grand daddy kheldians.
The entity known as Zeus, who has long sought to **** and pillage humanity all across the multi verse once more saw an oppurtunity to enslave earth, and so consumed the soul, and took over the body of Marcus. The guise of statesman was not adopted out of a selfless desire to do good works. No it was donned to garner worshippers to bolster his power through the faith of the ignorant masses.
This monster then used an artifact containing the essence of his mate( THe girdle of Hera), long ago imprisoned by ancient heroes of earth, to take over a human woman who was dear to marcus cole. A further insult to his only rival in the world at the time. The man called recluse has long been seen as a monster, but is he?
Did he drink first or only after seeing what happened to his dear friend. Or did something else happen entirely. Hades by some in modern times is mistakenly seen as evil because he is keeper of the dead and lord of the underworld. But there was a time when many saw him as the most compassionate for he alone was the one who kept constant contact with the countless souls that came into his realm.
Did perhaps Hades come to aid Stefan as a consequence of a soul being consumed by zeus, alerting him to a new cycle of conflict.
What is sure is that not once since the day Statesman was created has he done anything but manipulate the world to suit his goals. The fact we also know gods typically can possess multiple avatars, and are not limited by space and time as mortals are, may well imply that all variants of marcus cole are controlled by the entity known as Zeus.
Statesman isnt dead, he simply never existed.
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You are aware half of the game is called city of villains right? and the new part lets you be loyal to the tyrant. So why exactly does everyone playing have to be pro cape again?|
Originally Posted by Paladiamors
Nah, I agree with you. And what bothers me more are the people who want to 'pull the trigger' themselves.
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T'Keron Valmaz my eldest character and a rogue before we had red side or rogues, a mans soul fused with the lord of demonkind, would and could never bring himself to harm his old friend and ally K'Varr( infernal) but he wouldnt have even one moment of hesitation in rending Zeus's avatar limb from limb if given a heart beat to do it in.
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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
I'm being serious.....
And don't call me shirley. |
*High-fives*
Thank you for the payoff.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Dear OP, I get what your saying, but its largely based on a mythical figure who never existed even in our games world.
The following is my view of statesman since year one, and personally I feel all lore since has only supported it. The man named Marcus Cole was a good and noble soul once upon a time. After the great war he and his friend became fascinated by myths of ancient beings commonly called Gods. During this same time roughly the Dawn Patrol was founded and being lead by the first true hero of our era, Sir Alistair Sutton a ace fighter pilot in the great war and founder of the first super group. These brave and noble men would scour the globe learning all they could about the occult, magic, ancient technology, and the most secret and estoric of martial arts. They where taking the batman path as it might be called. Marcus and Stefan on the other hand where glory hounds, eager to aquire knowledge and power. For that lust they would pay the ultimate price. For when they found what they called the well of furies( not its real name despite what its called in game) which is in fact just one of many portals linking the multiverse. It lead to the dimension where extra dimensional entities must reside when they cannot find a suitable host. I nicked named them grand daddy kheldians. The entity known as Zeus, who has long sought to **** and pillage humanity all across the multi verse once more saw an oppurtunity to enslave earth, and so consumed the soul, and took over the body of Marcus. The guise of statesman was not adopted out of a selfless desire to do good works. No it was donned to garner worshippers to bolster his power through the faith of the ignorant masses. This monster then used an artifact containing the essence of his mate( THe girdle of Hera), long ago imprisoned by ancient heroes of earth, to take over a human woman who was dear to marcus cole. A further insult to his only rival in the world at the time. The man called recluse has long been seen as a monster, but is he? Did he drink first or only after seeing what happened to his dear friend. Or did something else happen entirely. Hades by some in modern times is mistakenly seen as evil because he is keeper of the dead and lord of the underworld. But there was a time when many saw him as the most compassionate for he alone was the one who kept constant contact with the countless souls that came into his realm. Did perhaps Hades come to aid Stefan as a consequence of a soul being consumed by zeus, alerting him to a new cycle of conflict. What is sure is that not once since the day Statesman was created has he done anything but manipulate the world to suit his goals. The fact we also know gods typically can possess multiple avatars, and are not limited by space and time as mortals are, may well imply that all variants of marcus cole are controlled by the entity known as Zeus. Statesman isnt dead, he simply never existed. |
That's....an interesting interpretation, to be sure.
I was just sort of going off what I could see and read in the game. S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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See, this is why they need to publish the damned Twilight Guardian trade paperback...
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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
Ape Pagoda? Isn't he an actor?
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Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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Pretty much, this. I suspect that those that wish they could pull the trigger on Statesman the character are wishing that it was Jack instead. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Pretty much indifferent. He's come across as a bit of a stiff-necked jerk in some of the stories, but he's not actually Jack Emmert, and he's not that important or unpleasant in the overall scheme of the world my characters experience..
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Statesman the character may have been aloof and detached, but he is/was eternally young a.k.a immortal. Everyone that he ever meets is, strictly speaking, already dead to him. He knew that barring some major catastrophe that he would still be around, conceivably even after the point where humans were extinct and Earth would belong to the cockroaches. The only other person that would be around with him at that point would be his equal/opposite: Lord Recluse.
Yes he found love and got married. That was rather brave considering he would inevitably outlive her, and outlive his daughter and grand-daughter.
So anyway, his immortality would alter his behavior and world view and if acted like he was emotionally detached or aloof it would be likely due to thinking of his immortality as a burden, not a boon.
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So am I. We learn alot IN GAME about statesman if you go through all the content. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
That's....an interesting interpretation, to be sure.
I was just sort of going off what I could see and read in the game. S. |
Also on a side to those saying things like statesman as always been all of ours standard and icon.
Not all character concepts are fresh young heroes, some of us RPers are even so hard core about that we dont use the actual name we want for a character until we have them to 50 or even all the way incarnated out now days.
Examples of old characters of my own who would never have LOOKED UP to statesman as it where due to age or race.
Bentley Berkeley: On charter as one of the founders of the midnighters club( and in game founder of the lore based sg Midnighter's Club) and at least around a century old, though there is lore that alludes to him possibly being older. I have RPed him for years that he in fact is from the time of imperious, and has spent a long time keeping the kheldian menace from conquering earth and devouring humanity in mass for thier bodies to host the new born extra dimensional entities. Be he a hundred or thousands of years old, he is one of my own mentor rp characters who I play largely to avoid that common feeling so many have of always feeling like a booster gold next to hal jordan.
T'Keron Valmaz: If its not obvious, he is conceptually what happened to the other passengers that came with infernal from his own world and one other realm. A scrapper made in year one, he has always been played more as a tormented anti hero, until we got alignment shifting. He has since gone from blue all the way to red then back to rogue status, and wavers there as the human part of him struggles to win control but can do little more then keep the very worst of the demon lord in check. In my RP T'Keron is one of the great unsung heroes of the multi verse, for though he failed to fully bind the demon lord to his will, he has managed to indirectly reduce the monsters evil and even on occasion manages to take enough control to do some good. I also RP him being leader of a faction of the circle of thorns who still hold true to the ancient ways and persue a war on the children of MU and the followers of Tielekku to honor the ancient pact between man and demon to keep them free from the controlling forces of gods,
I could go on, but those are just a few examples of lore based concept characters that are fun to RP, fit thier power sets and abilities well, and frankly have 0 reason to look at statesman as other then a would be god among men.
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When one obtains vast power, one could likely become concerned as to what would happen if others gained the same or similar power level.|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Statesman was a bro in the Maria Jenkins arc. Of course it's frustrating to be told he doesn't trust me enough to let me be incarnate after I beat down every major Praetorian to save him.
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Also tapping the Well made Statesman an immortal, it is possible that he simply doesn't wish immortality on others so that they can live normal lives and not stay young forever while friends, comrades, family and loved ones all perish.
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I've been anxiously waiting for this to happen ever since he nerfed Perma-unstoppable. What took them so long? Can we get a spraypaint temp power so we can vandalize his grave?
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
...I'm not going to be in a rush to see Statesman die...
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So stapling the comics I have together wouldn't count then, I imagine.|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
See, this is why they need to publish the damned Twilight Guardian trade paperback...
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S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by Smedley_Prime
I've been anxiously waiting for this to happen ever since he nerfed Perma-unstoppable. What took them so long? Can we get a spraypaint temp power so we can vandalize his grave?
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Ah. By 'he' you mean Mr. Emmert. This is about Statesman, not his real life counterpart who you obviously dislike so much. I don't think this is the thread you think it is, with all due respect.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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I guess you're right, but I find it difficult to separate them. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Ah. By 'he' you mean Mr. Emmert. This is about Statesman, not his real life counterpart who you obviously dislike so much. I don't think this is the thread you think it is, with all due respect.
S. |
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Understood and appreciated. |
Originally Posted by Smedley_Prime
I guess you're right, but I find it difficult to separate them.
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However, I came in post-Emmert, and can only speak to the character. S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Yes our characters are now in a world without Statesman, which means that the current generation of heroes and the heroes yet to come will have Statesman's memory/example/legacy to live up to. |
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
Yeah, exactly.
He's always been the face of the game. Even if he hasn't always been written properly or well, he's been the top hero that all the other heroes look up to, the one with the rivalry with the head of Arachnos, the one who's been front and center of just about every loading screen. He's the equivalent of Superman - not only to DC comics, but to comics in general. The symbol for heroes is Statesman's star, just as the symbol for villains is the Arachnos spider. He represented the entire hero side of the game. And, while I've had plenty of heroes and villains as "sidekicks", following me around on various missions, the one I found most exciting - the moment I felt like my character had really "made it", like I was really in the big leagues now - was when Statesman was the one following me around, after I'd just rescued him from Pretoria. And now they just killed him off. The Justice League just lost its Superman, the Avengers just lost its Captain America. Who will replace him? Who's going to be the face of the game now? Not Hawkeye/Green Arrow, or Quicksilver/Flash, or even Iron Man (especially not an Iron Man in rusty-looking puke-green armor). They don't have that sort of gravitas. |
Now the characters of CoH do not have their immortal and indestructible Deus Ex Machina hero to swoop in and save the day when all others have failed. (Wasn't it said that Statesman survived at ground zero of a nuke?) All of our characters, despite being overamped incarnates who are at the defense softcap still do not have the magical immortality and longevity of Statesman (or Recluse for that matter). Our characters can die granted we have the revolving door of death with the reclamators in the hosps but we need those to keep going. Statesman didn't. He was there. He was the indestructible one, the one that could keep going no matter what.
Now, he is gone.......
At least for now. Despite the mission dialogue stating that Statesman was beyond resuscitation, this is a comic book game and he is the mainstay character of the game. Who is to stay that stripping Darren Wade of the power he stripped from Statesman couldn't be used to revive Statesman? We don't know that, at least not yet. All we do know is that he is gone and the balance of power has now shifted.....
Did the arc this morning. More out of morbid curiosity since I've been spending most of my time on Belsavis recently. 
I felt it was handled as well as something pre-spoiled could be. He died, there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it, and I didn't care. I don't even care about how we eventually defeat his killer. It's as obvious the killer is not going to win as was Statesman's death.
The SSAs have been probably the worst storytelling in this game so far. It's not interactive. We are reading a story, we just have to push buttons to move through it.
Oh well, we get a free hero merit every week out of it. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I understand your feelings for Statesman, The Heroic/Tragic Fictional Character. But that is only one side of the coin. Statesman was also an extension of Jack Emmert. Jack Emmert created the character, used it as his avatar in the game and as his mouth piece on the forums. To expect people not to intertwine the two is unrealistic. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Ah. By 'he' you mean Mr. Emmert. This is about Statesman, not his real life counterpart who you obviously dislike so much. I don't think this is the thread you think it is, with all due respect.
S. |
It is well known that actors can cause the popularity of characters they play to plummet because of their Out of Character personal actions (See Paul Reubens). It's worse in this case since there is no clear line as to what is OOC since Emmert used the name "Statesman" when he made unpopular statements. Then he made more, and still more unpopular statements while wearing the name.
Imagine if Danniel Radcliff-"Harry Potter" had said bad things about the Queen of England. Now imagine if he did it WHILE dressed as Harry Potter. Now imagine he did this once a week for over a year with the blessings of Rowling. Do you think people would intermix the negative feelings with Harry Potter and that Harry Potter would be hated by many?
Thats the CoH equivalent of what happened, and at this point a certain percentage of players are happy to see Harry Potter the Queen Hater die.
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Because the guy was such a tool, understood.
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Originally Posted by Smedley_Prime
I guess you're right, but I find it difficult to separate them.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I'm not in a rush to play any of those missions. We already know what is happening, and what we do will have no affect on the outcome, so why should I bother playing them?
It's like being in an RPG with a bad game master. They could have set it up in a way so that the choices we made I earlier parts could dictate how the story might turn out. Instead, we are just watching a movie that we know the ending too already.
No thanks.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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So how many times did you talk with him? Every time I traded messages with him he was always polite and respectful. Did you ever actually talk to the guy?
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Because the guy was such a tool, understood.
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Originally Posted by Cathulhu
I understand your feelings for Statesman, The Heroic/Tragic Fictional Character. But that is only one side of the coin. Statesman was also an extension of Jack Emmert. Jack Emmert created the character, used it as his avatar in the game and as his mouth piece on the forums. To expect people not to intertwine the two is unrealistic.
It is well known that actors can cause the popularity of characters they play to plummet because of their Out of Character personal actions (See Paul Reubens). It's worse in this case since there is no clear line as to what is OOC since Emmert used the name "Statesman" when he made unpopular statements. Then he made more, and still more unpopular statements while wearing the name. Imagine if Danniel Radcliff-"Harry Potter" had said bad things about the Queen of England. Now imagine if he did it WHILE dressed as Harry Potter. Now imagine he did this once a week for over a year with the blessings of Rowling. Do you think people would intermix the negative feelings with Harry Potter and that Harry Potter would be hated by many? Thats the CoH equivalent of what happened, and at this point a certain percentage of players are happy to see Harry Potter the Queen Hater die. |
Perhaps so, but there is a pre-existing notion called character seperation. Most actors, and the people who follow those actors, seperate out the character traits and actions of the actor from the character they're portraying.
Using your Harry Potter example above, how many people would realistically buy into the fact that 'Harry Potter' (clearly a fictional character) is a terrible horrible person when the movies demonstrate him not to be?
What happens instead in these cases is an association with the role over the actual role itself. Take George Clooney and Batman, for instance. Clooney freely admits he 'killed the Batman franchise', yet noone hates Batman because of Clooney. What may hold true for Jack Emmert/Statesman does not hold true as an overall argument. The same applies for the lineage of actors who have held the Superman role. They range from beloved (Christopher Reeve) to sadness (George Reeves and his descent into alcoholism by feeling he was typecast). It has little to do with the role and more the association with the role.
I can appreciate any and all anger with Jack Emmert, but if I take a step back and look at things (was Statesman the character responsible for things not connected to him, ie the rules/management of the game) can I realistically connect him to that? At that point, one has to consider that they are making connections that have more to do with their anger than even the person they consider responsible for that anger.
A good example are the obssessed fans that first idolize and then come to want to kill their idol because they somehow don't live up to the image that is set up in their minds. By no means am I saying CoH fans are delusional or obssessed, but it's clear the anger is misplaced and is directed at a fictional person whom if you asked about the issues, would have not even a remote clue as to what you were talking about.
Clinging to that anger is saying much more about the person maintaining it than the source of the percieved wrong against them.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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I had no personal messages, just the ones made in general discussion that were er um...lets just say they were less than professional.
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Originally Posted by Saint Valencrime
So how many times did you talk with him? Every time I traded messages with him he was always polite and respectful. Did you ever actually talk to the guy?
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I seperate them myself.|
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
I understand your feelings for Statesman, The Heroic/Tragic Fictional Character. But that is only one side of the coin. Statesman was also an extension of Jack Emmert. Jack Emmert created the character, used it as his avatar in the game and as his mouth piece on the forums. To expect people not to intertwine the two is unrealistic.
It is well known that actors can cause the popularity of characters they play to plummet because of their Out of Character personal actions (See Paul Reubens). It's worse in this case since there is no clear line as to what is OOC since Emmert used the name "Statesman" when he made unpopular statements. Then he made more, and still more unpopular statements while wearing the name. Imagine if Danniel Radcliff-"Harry Potter" had said bad things about the Queen of England. Now imagine if he did it WHILE dressed as Harry Potter. Now imagine he did this once a week for over a year with the blessings of Rowling. Do you think people would intermix the negative feelings with Harry Potter and that Harry Potter would be hated by many? Thats the CoH equivalent of what happened, and at this point a certain percentage of players are happy to see Harry Potter the Queen Hater die. |
If I didn't seperate the person from their roles, Id miss out on some good movies, when you realize that some of those actors who's movies you love to watch, in real life, are in some way messed up in your view.
Saddly, for a lot of the players and forum goers, they can't or don't want to seperate the creator from the creation.
Is this everyone? No. But enough have freely admitted to it. Or rather, they know they're not truely one and the same, but hate Statesman the creation anyways, because it was Jack's creation.
To take a popular comicbook writer/artist who seems to be universally hated now a days. It would be as if people couldn't seperate Deadpool from Rob Liefield. Hate Deadpool because he was created by Rob, not because you either just wouldn't like the character or would like the character if he was created by someone else.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Or even running with a mok....
S.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.