An in-game conversation about tauntless Tankers

Earlier this morning, someone on a global channel was asking about certain enhancements and whether they would be effective. This eventually devolved into a 45-minute argument about the role of a Tanker and the benefits of having taunt, which he was against. Coming to this forum to share the story, I was amused to find this thread already discussing the role of a Tanker. I suppose parts of this could be applicable for the Rude Tells thread, but it'll probably be better appreciated here.

(Note: I suppose we all should have been tipped off at the very beginning that this was not going to go well, when he thought that Gaussians was specifically for "fire" powers...)

Cast of Characters
Tanker? - Main antagonist
CP X - Channel People 1-5
Me

Tanker?: can i use this for energy mastery....focused accuracy [Power:Crafted Gaussians Synchronized FireControl E.Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control: To Hit Buff/Endurance Reduction.50]
CP 1: no
CP 1: wait yes sry tired
Tanker?: no bs right...you are telling me straight
CP 1: u can use it
CP 1: u can use it
Tanker?: im a tanker...with no fire powers..is it still good
CP 1: yes, it is a huge end drain but it will bring the acc of ur attacks
Tanker?: s--- ...endurance is something i need...maybe i shouldnt
CP 1: i would use phyical perfection
CP 1: and converse power
Tanker?: what other to hit buff would you suggest......
CP 1: what attack set r u
Tanker?: batle ax
CP 1: put the guassin's in build up
Tanker?: dont have build up or taunt
CP 1: and u r a tank?
Tanker?: they drain endurance
Tanker?: yup
CP 1: every tank should have taunt
Tanker?: why...i just go in and smash them anyway
CP 1: cause a tank inst always the dmg dealer on a team
CP 1: tanks r made to take dmg and hold aggro
CP 2: CP 1 is right. EVERY tank should have taunt. It's your job. Make sure everything is beating on you, and nobody else. Not damage dealing.
Tanker?: but without taunt sloted i have room for another hit power
CP 1: after u r fully slotted u will not need another accuarcy power to boost ur to hit
CP 2: If you want to be a damage dealer, go brute or scrapper.
CP 1: agreed
CP 3: Dark Armor tanks though what about them
CP 1: they r s---
CP 3: actually they're pretty fun and decent
Tanker?: with the agro i have ...everyone does attack me
CP 1: unless u r fighting psionic
CP 3: or s/l or energy
CP 1: but taunt is made to make sure that u have the aggro even with ppl who r dealing more dmg than u
CP 3: [Gauntlet]
CP 1: which helps
CP 1: but i acan pull aggro from a tank than doesnt have taunt with a corr or a blaster
Tanker?: im willpower battle ax....im pretty powerful...and i take care of the poeple i team with....for the most part... the focus does stay on me
CP 1: wanna prove it?
Tanker?: now im not fully enhanced yet big guy but we can go into a farm and i can show ya
CP 1: let me switching
Me: Playing a tank without taunt should only be done if you're trying to accomplish some specific concept.
Tanker?: besides im on justice
CP 3: my concept is griefing
CP 1: i can come there
Me: It'd be like a pet-less Mastermind or a "pure" Empathy healz0r.
CP 1: back on justice
Tanker?: look...i have a tank on triumph..who has taunt...i dont like the power...i feel it's a waste of space....what i have sloted works well for me and the teams i play on....there is no rule saying a tank needs taunt...it's a waste of a slot..in my own opinion
CP 3: there is a rule though it's just understood
CP 2: Going for a damage dealing tank is just doing no roles well. Crap damage, and no aggro focus.
Tanker?: a slot that can be used for a nother hit power...or a defence power
Me: Yes, it's going against what the AT is designed to do, which is gain and maintain aggro
Me: But, you're welcome to play your character however you wish
Tanker?: so what you are saying is a tank is a punching bag....f-that noise...i wanna bang stuff up
CP 2: It's like trying to play a dominator as a blaster.
CP 3: then play a brute
CP 2: Or a scrapper.
CP 2: Tanks are punching bags.
Tanker?: i like tanks
CP 3: they're tanks, really
CP 1: but i can guarantee i can pull aggro from u with a different at not design to hold aggro and keep it from u
Tanker?: who cares about agro...is there a badge for it...can you sell it...can you convert it...no...
Me: It just helps keep your teammates alive...
CP 2: ...It keeps your team alive, and successful...
Tanker?: my teamates do stay alive
CP 3: I can sell aggro
CP 1: no but one day it will get u and ur teammates killed
Tanker?: bulloks
CP 4: There is a "Damage Taken" badge group so technically YES
Tanker?: i have that one
CP 2: Without taunt, that Cimeroran boss runs over to your empath which is keeping you alive, and 2 shots her, then you die. Aggro did that.
Me: all seven of them?
Tanker?: it's not for aggro..so no
CP 4: then why did you ask such a silly question if you already knew the answer?
Tanker?: lol
CP 1: taunt is there for one reason and 1 reason only, to hold, maintain, and manipulate aggro, without u r nothing more than a scrapper thats a like harder to kill
CP 1: little*
CP 2: Well, I guess it's fine if you think that taunt is worthless...You're just on my list of tanks I won't run any TFs with.
Tanker?: im not just gonna stand arround and call a mob to me and just do alittle damage......when they do gather i knock um on thier a----...if some slip away thats fine..but the majority of them stay on me
Me: obviously, you won't like be taunting things if you solo all the time, but it's virtually indispensable in high level groups
Me: *likely be
CP 1: and the ones that slipp away could kill part of ur team cause u cant get their aggro
Tanker?: i said only a few slip by...i always go for the strongest guys first
CP 1: and u just dont stand there and call the mob to u, u go to the group and taunt and let the team kill most of the mob
Tanker?: look...you got a toon on justice
CP 3: I think it would be best if we made a big deal about it
CP 1: it doesnt always take the strongest mo to kill someone
CP 4: rather have you go for the most dangerous -- not always the same

(Two minutes later)

CP 3: are we done?
Tanker?: look man f-taunt...it's a waste...ask anyone ive ever teamed with......i dont need it, dont want it, and dont care for the power....if im the only tank, i take care of my team
CP 3: guess we're not done
CP 1: its ur choice, i will just never team and believe a tank without taunt has a retarded player behind the wheel
CP 1: i am tired of talking about this and so GN [Channel]
CP 5: later
Me: cya
CP 4: and Tanks like you are the reason why I play my Corr, put Twilight Grasp on auto and stand next to Fluffy
CP 2: Goodnight CP 1 aka "voice of reason"
Tanker?: you guys think just because i dont have taunt, im not a good player....f--- taunt and f--- you CP 1..im not retarded i have ceribal palsey...lol.....
CP 3: This is gold
Me: you mean "cerebral palsy"?
Tanker?: knowone sayed i was gude spellar
CP 3: is it ataxic?
CP 5: well Tanker? that is a form of retardness
Tanker?: bottom line is i take care of the team im on when i team...taunt is not needed by me
CP 3: is your team ataxic?
CP 5: and damn go smoke a fter
CP 5: fatty
Tanker?: besides without it ...it keeps my team on thier toes
CP 4: "not needed by you" and "beneficial to the team" are two different things
CP 3: or on their faces
CP 4: The hospitals do have cute nurses now at least
CP 5: if u dont want to tank play a brute
Tanker?: belive what you want...ive never had a team fail a mission because we all died
CP 3: never?
Tanker?: never
CP 3: ever run a UGT or TPN
CP 5: lol
CP 5: never say never
Me: or STF or ITF
Tanker?: teamates fall..as in every team..no i haven't yet like i said just started enhanceing this toon
CP 3: how do you tank av's
Tanker?: i go in and kick his a--...
Me: lol
CP 3: I bet ya do
CP 2: Do you...Just run sewers...Like, all the time?
CP 5: avs in ae dont count u know
CP 4: poor indicator about tanking an AV -- I Tanked Romy in the last mission with a Stalker (the other 7 characters were all Corrs)
Tanker?: no buddy...sewers are for wussies...i built this toon from the ground up
Me: meaning you levelled him starting from one?
Tanker?: play all the missions im given, kick all the a-- that is requiered of me
Me: that's how I've done all of mine, too...
CP 3: so you skipped sewers then
Me: and AE?
CP 3: from the ground up?
Tanker?: did the sewr mission twice for the badges only...not to lev. and no...i take all my toons through the tutorial
CP 3: I need the tutorial that many times too
Me: yep, I start all of my characters from level one and go from there. it's the only way to go!!1
CP 3: so do you ever run any itrials where you tank
Me: the tutorial only gets you to level 2...
CP 3: or do you just not tank during itrials
CP 4: you know that you get a free level if you press alt+f4?
Tanker?: im not some free to play player...some noob...just one so far with this toon...and only twice on the other
Tanker?: yeah ok...har, har, har, de har, har!
CP 3:: so 3 itrials total
Tanker?: yeup...nothing wrong woth that is there oh CoH god that you are
Me: just as a point of reference, how long have you been playing, Tanker??
CP 3: at least a week
Tanker?: since 2008 then i recently got an account myself
CP 3: ever tank for the STF?
Tanker?: yeah just started yesturday
Tanker?: dont know what that is
CP 3: good, good
Me: then, no
Me: you should try it sometime, the Statesman Task Force in Independence Port
Tanker?: what is it..maybe i have
CP 3: you can probably tank lord recluse with just your axe and your willpower, I'd go for it
Tanker?: oh yeah ive done that with this toon...pieace of cake
Me: fruit cake?
Tanker?: funny..i gues tuant would make a HUGE difference there
[Tell] CP 3: it's such a silly argument
[Tell] CP 3: why would you not take taunt
[Tell] CP 3: "It's okay I'm battle axe guys"

<facepalm>

It also really depends on primary/secondary choices. Shield and Inv have VERY strong auras that can negate the need for taunt in many cases. Kinetic Melee has stronger than normal gauntlet radius and durations - focused burst is basically taunt on it's own. Titan weapons or fire melee put out so much aoe that it less necessary for the taunt power

That doesn't mean that taunt is should be skipped, but it does mean that some builds can delay it to level 49 and a single slot. and if they do decide to skip it, it doesn't mean they are a bad player, but are just not building for team tanking. A properly built tank can put out very respectable damage with the highest survival possible for a toon. I can't call building for that goal a bad thing, even if most of the player base doesn't agree that's what a tanker *SHOULD* be.

Complete and total fail for both sides of that conversation. Awesome.

Actually, I've been noticing a lot of tankers who lack taunt lately. I think it coincides with players returning to the game after a long break and new players, post-Freedom.

I even take it on my Brutes. It's a fantastic power.

I love having Taunt on Tanks and Brutes. Brutes more for the 'ZOMGFURYAGGROGIMMEGIMMEALLMINE' than you know... to protect teammates or something. However, I don't always have room for or the want to take Taunt.

That said, if you as a Tank need Taunt to well.. tank, you are probably not doing your job. When I am on a Tank or Brute I am very aggressive. I don't need Taunt to pull mobs off someone or get attention. I do it by being in an enemy's face, and I generally don't mind having to chase a guy or two.

Is Taunt useful? Of course it is. Is it required? Of course not. Actually, the -range component is the best part of Taunt, to me. All those things that refuse to close to melee when I don't have a corner or something to pull to? It's like having a City version of Scorpion. "GET OVER HERE!"

Taunt or no, if I have a teammate going out of their way to make trouble, steal aggro, run off on their own, etc, I let them. You can be suicidal, I have no problem with that. But I'm also not going to be suicidal to save you. I don't subscribe to the 'no deaths is a successful team' motto. Occasionally, no matter what you do, a player is defeated. Being defeated is a momentary inconvenience. Get yourself back up, continue on.

Here's the thing that gets me about the 'Tanks without Taunt are not Tanks' argument. You've absolutely boiled down the roll of an AT to -one- power. What if all that Tank did was Taunt? I guarantee you I could pull aggro off them with any toon. Because any AT or toon is more than just one power. In this case, if that Tank can get in, get the attention and keep it without that one power, they are doing their job. Would you even notice if they didn't say anything?

Would you as [insert AT/set] feel off-put if you were accused of not being a good [insert AT/set] here because you skipped what another player considered an essential power? Even if you did your job well? I mean personally, I dislike it when say, Empaths skip Fortitude, but provided they can still do their job I move on. Because a set/AT is more than one power.

Take taunt. Just do it. I have played Tankers for years, and it is just too useful to skip. Contrary to the conversation, taunt takes zero endurance.

I think I'm weird, I don't play Tankers but I love protecting squishies on my Brutes and even go punch someone in the face with my Stalker to get attention when he's beating up a squishy. Hell last Positron I ran I faceplanted twice because some stupid scrapper thought he could solo mobs and since well, he couldn't, there I went with my /ice blaster to melee to cast Ice Patch so I could help him. Didn't work out very well for me because of IP's stupid cast time

Yeah, I'm not reading that.

Take Taunt. Or don't. It's your character.

My personal peve is not taking mez protection. Now bare with me here, I understand that you can build your charetors howerever you want to, and that certain builds preclude picking up all the powers or make you drop certain usefull powers for other more usefull powers, or even just for theme....... But Ive bumpted into 2 inv/??? tanks that had not picked up any toggles but had picked up all the passives. Now I dont know if they were themed or not but not picking up the mez toggle at least in inv makes me ?????

Aren't these threads supposed to devolve into discussions of BBQ sauce? I know it's been a while since I've seen on of these threads, but I thought that's how they typical went.

Taunt is one of the only -Range powers in the game. I even use it solo. YMMV but I'd personally never skip it.

Will Power tanks NEED to take taunt. Rise to the Challenge just doesn't cut it. An anemic defender can pull aggro off of you.

Someone invite that person to a Hamidon raid.

I would never have followed that conversation for that long, though.

I've never played a Tanker. However, I can say as someone that helps lead weekly Hamidon raids on the Exalted server, a.k.a. "the melee server," we're seeing a lot of Tankers without Taunt. We've had full teams of Tankers without taunt a couple of times. It just boggles my mind. I realize that this doesn't apply to the rest of the game, but, honestly, a Tanker without taunt in a Hamidon raid is useless.

Then there are all the Fiery Aura Tankers with either no knockback protection or only 4 points worth...

The funniest part of that is he is a WP tank.

With my three tanks I try to take Taunt no later than 30 and most of the time as soon as I have a decent attack chain and an aggro aura because early on many other sets (I'm looking at you blasters and corrs) get huge aggro grabbing attacks that they like to use on groups gathered around the Tank and without Taunt I likely won't be able to hold the aggro from those things. I don't think taunt is as necessary on a brute, though still quite useful, but on a tank it supports the ATs role so well that's it's hard to understand not getting the power. Also, -range component makes taunt a power I utilize solo many a time.

I am a little curious how well that guy actually tanks without it. I don't not team with Tanks who don't have taunt because that's just silly but I will quit a team if the tank isn't good at keeping aggro when I am letting them fulfill their role (or like the afformentioned Inv/ not taking any toggles from the set ).

When I originally read the conversation Blondshell posted, it simply dumbfounded me. Not so much about taking taunt as a power, the conversation as a whole. That prompted my <facepalm> response.

A new day and a fresh read of the original post again, I still have the <faceplam> reaction. After reading through all the comments, I can see both sides of the issue. However, it is my belief that looking at Taunt as a power is the wrong way to view it.

I believe Taunt should be look at as a tool for a tanker. A tool designed to help a Tank manage aggro and control the foes before the team and tanker. Whether or not a Tanker's aura alone can control aggro is another matter for debate. Alternatively, it works for some primary/secondary powers but not others. However, Taunt is a tool a tanker can use to pull enemies of his teammates when he cannot disengage from those he's fighting. Especially if said teammate is your primary healer who happened to gain aggro from some enemies in between he/she and the tanker.

No matter how the teammate got in trouble, Taunt can save a teammate. This, in my opinion, is one of the primary roles of a tanker. Furthermore, not taking Taunt is akin to relying on one arm while the other is tied behind your back. Unless you slot every attack power with taunt sets, holding aggro with dozen or so enemies isn't going to last long, especially if a few blasters and defenders are raining long range fire down on their heads. We have certain available powers to use that enhance our primary and secondary abilities.

Taunt is one that makes managing aggro and enemy control a lot easier when you have it. Especially a tool designed to elicit a response from a group of enemies you want to gain the attention of. Charging into a group of enemy isn't always the smart tactic. This is especially true when said group is a bit too close to another one. Your tank might be able to survive the onslaught of 6 to 24 more enemies, but I can guarantee you that your teammates cannot, unless, they are tanks too. Taunt is best at gaining separation of one group from another group thus saving any unsavory results of facing up to 48 enemies at once. Why leave a tool out of your arsenal when it can make what you do a lot easier and safer for everyone involved? One should not in my opinion.